375 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOncomingStorm]

I mostly meant strength in regards to armor requirements, seems with the last patch that straight dex does the most damage with an Assasin/Duelist build. I might be off by a point or two but as I recall both elves start with 13 or 14 strength, so even with the stat boosts from the Circle portion, you still need to waste some points in strength so you can wear T6 leather(20 or 21 Str for that?)

[Sable Phoenix]

I feel the main weakness of the Rogue is its squishiness.  I don't mean by hitpoints or armor, I mean by defence.  It's far too easy to be hit in the early game.  Once you get elite armor and the Duelist specialization this problem tends to go away, but the first half or so of the game is painful.  Something needs to even that out a bit.

The second problem is the Archery line in general.  First, archery on its own is inherently weak; you miss often, are interrupted easily, and attack slowly.  The Archery line is further hampered by insanely long activation times, very high stamina costs, and maintained abilities that saddle the character with negatives that usually outwiegh or at least neutralize the benefit gained from them.  Almost the only reasons to take the Archery line are Arrow of Slaying and Scattershot.  Bows need to be re-evaluated, made more effective, and the Archery line really really needs lower activation times on its skills.  You're almost required to take Bard and Assassin to make Archery actually work.

I find it supremely annoying that only Rogues can detect traps or pick locks.  I think trap detection and disarming and lock picking should be based on Cunning and Dexterity rather than on class-exclusive skills.

Other than that, there's really nothing else wrong with the Rogue, everyone knows a dual wield Rogue shreds things in the late game.

[Lord Phoebus]

TheOncomingStorm wrote...

I mostly meant strength in regards to armor requirements, seems with the last patch that straight dex does the most damage with an Assasin/Duelist build. I might be off by a point or two but as I recall both elves start with 13 or 14 strength, so even with the stat boosts from the Circle portion, you still need to waste some points in strength so you can wear T6 leather(20 or 21 Str for that?)

You need 20 for the tier 7 armors but you can use items to reach that value, so you don't need to put any points in strength unless you want your rogue in massive armor.  Certainly there are advantages to that approach for a rogue as well: it looks better, it diminishes damage from autohit attacks like overwhelm, there are better bonuses on some of the heavier armors, it improves survivability at lower levels, etc. 

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 26 janvier 2010 - 05:42 .

[MaliceDelight]

Im playing my second time through, and im using a rogue. The only real complaints i have is



1. It doesnt appear to take into account my runes in my weapon on special attacks

2. There is not like huge damaging move (that i've found yet, that jumps me out of stealth)

[wwwwowwww]

[quote]Victor Wachter wrote...

And now it's the Rogue's turn. As we continue to plan for the future of the Dragon Age franchise, we're interested in hearing your feedback regarding the different classes.

In this thread, we'd like to ask your opinions of the Rogue class. You can still comment in last week's Warrior topic. Next week's topic will cover the Mage.

[list]
What do you like and dislike about the Rogue?

Well I love to play Rogue Characters it is my favorite class by far. I love the backstabbing ability and stealth.
 
I dislike the armor  choices more than anything when it comes to rogues. As the game goes on they look like low level warriors with no real uniquness to them. The traditional type rogue wouldn't wear a helmet so I think when playing a rogue that slot should be moved to something else.

Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Rogue?

I think backstabbing is underpowered, and will get to that down the line. Other than that nope

What are your favorite Rogue specializations? What are your least favorite?

I love the assassin concept, but feel this version is a bit watered down. Duelist is a great one, but this one feels like it would fit better with a dex based warrior. Bard is ok, but I've never been a big fan of them anyways. I can't even associate a ranger with a rogue so I can't speak on that spec. as I won't take it.

I would like to see something a bit more like a swashbuckler or scout/spy.

What are your favorite Rogue talent trees? What are your least favorite?

Hmmm.... I would rather see pick poketing in the talent tree than deft hands personally as that seems a bit more rogue like.

Also believe that backstab should be added to the talent tree, allowing you to progress the damage that it does.

Coup de Grace is a bit weak as you should automatically do backstab damage to a paralyzed opponent so that should put up to the way it was traditionally set or just get rid of it.



[*]

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I love playing a rogue, I haven't tried any other class as yet, having to much fun playing a rogue.

What do you like and dislike about the Rogue?

Not enough skill pts to spend and not enough education books in the game when I have the gold to buy them, especially the skills and sundry book. That was annoying.

Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Rogue?

I have to agree with some of the comments above. Rogues need better armour choices. I also ran into a problem with Wade's armour choices for the dragonbone armour. He tells me he can make me light but when asked my choice I get a medium option. The medium was still to heavy. I don't like a rogue with heavy armour, sort of defeats the purpose of being a rogue.

What are your favorite Rogue specializations? What are your least favorite?

My favorites are Assassin and Dualists. I just unlocked Ranger and I let Leliana do the bard thing. Since I'm a rogue I don't use her very often. Ranger needs to be more powerful. I do give myself the archer melee for good measure and this seems to work instead of using the ranger.

What are your favorite Rogue talent trees? What are your least favorite?

Punisher, Cripple, and Dual Sweep. I beheaded alot of characters with these three talents. I hate the Feign Death, it's very weak. Coup De' Grace wasn't bad, but I hated spending a point on Feign to get to Coup.

I love the the dirty fighting and below the belt. I have fun with those and the bombs. Love those. Soulrot is my favorite. I love the combat movement and how that gets better and better for those backstabs.

I have more kills then the warriors. That backstab with stealth makes the difference. 

Once past level 20 I would like to see more slotted rune weapons for rogues, say four slotted rune weapon and if your lucky and make it to level 25 a five slotted rune weapon.  That would rock.

Over all, the rogue class is my favorite.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 26 janvier 2010 - 10:21 .

[Haplose]

I love your work with the Rogue, Bioware! Got to be my favourite class in DA:O. And the class plays much better then in any other game I can think of.
Thank you.

What do you like and dislike about the Rogue?
I love the verstality and sheer effectiveness of the class. I love circling to backstab positions or taking advantage of enemy immobilization effects.

I dislike how few Talent and skill points there are, while there are so many good Talents and skills to pick (and almost all needed).
I dislike that only mainhand runes trigger for backstab attacks. I dislike that runes do not trigger for special attacks (same problem with Warrior).
I dislike Evasion interrupting actions and potentially even locking a character in endless animation cycle. That's especially bad if Defence is high and you're able to evade hits anyway, but Evasion still takes priority over Defence and Physical Resistance.

Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Rogue?
Underpowered: Probably the Archery part.
Overpowered: That's more a problem with stats rather then class itself, but I would call Dexterity overpowered. Contributes to Attack, Damage (with daggers or ranged weapons), Physical Resistance and makes you unhittable through high Defence? Maybe a bit much.

What are your favorite Rogue specializations? What are your least favorite?
Favourite: Assasin and Duelist

Least Favourite: Ranger. A pure summoner class? It could stay, but I would like to see another specialization that actually supports ranged combat somehow.

What are your favorite Rogue talent trees? What are your least favorite?
Favourite got to be Dirty Fighting -> Combat Movement -> Coup-de-Grace line. Pure awesomness in these 3 Talents. To bad Tier 4 Talent, Feign Death, is kinda useless, especially with Combat Stealth.
Least Favorite: Archery Talents. Too many and too expensive for too little gain.

Modifié par Haplose, 26 janvier 2010 - 12:15 .

[Calzier]

What do you like and dislike about the Rogue?

I like the versatility, the non-tank &/or ranged warrior approach. The wide selection of skills and talents. I like Ranger being a rogue spec rather than warrior. Works for me as a concept (although see below)

Dislike - the 'classic thief' approach - the whole dual-weapon thing - this is still too 'fantasy' archetype. (love that shields become something more than (+1AC as in D&D), but dual-wielding against steel-clad sword & shield?
Just going to get your arms cut off!

Rough Dalish armour. Ugly. But better material leather armour looks nicer....

Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Rogue?

Prob. not quite enough skill/talent points? I understand the desire to make the player make choices, but just a couple more skill points and a couple more talents  (in total) might make the difference?

Archery - bows stats specifically - not great. I've actually edited the bow stats gda (and as someone playing DAO on a Mac without access to the toolset, that was entertaining), so bows behave more as I think they should given
in-game appearance and real-world archetypes (longbow ~ Agincourt war bow, short bow ~ eastern European/steppes composite recurve, crossbow ~12-13th C) Now - for me - all deliver about the same basic damage, longbow has greater range, crossbow much nastier in dealing criticals but with a short optimum
range. Both long & shortbows split str/dex (as an archer in RL with my own Agincourt replica, this seems appropriate), no stat bonus for crossbows (essentially the pre-gunpowder gun). These are probably not entirely realistic, but a good approximation given the true difference in shooting rates can't be replicated without making crossbows completely useless.

What are your favorite Rogue specializations? What are your least favorite?

Favs are Ranger & Assassin. Both work for my PC concept. Ranger should be bumped up a bit imo - perhaps a stealth bonus, or the wolf summon as a free (ie bonus) talent?  I often tried to build a "ranger" in NWN using dual classed rogue/fighter.. so having ranger as a rogue spec in DAO in on the money.

One more general point - why use the term 'ranger' - this has too many D&D <-- Tolkien connotations for me? You could easily have called it 'hunter' 'tracker' 'woodsman' or something, and gained that additional step away from the D&D legacy.

Never cared much for bards, but haven't played one so can't comment.


What are your favorite Rogue talent trees? What are your least favorite?

The 'combat' talent trees seem a little random, the dirty fighting tree in particular. Why does Evasion top the below the belt tree? That would seem to build from Combat movement. Likewise, Coup de Grace could follow from lethality (and perhaps be a bit more powerful in consequence?)

Re. stealth tree - I'd switch combat steal and use item around. I've often found that the immediate melee may be over, but there are other enemies on the map, out of sight. With only the basic 'stealth' talent, my rogue can't sneak off to take up a tactical position, as the game considers combat to be continuing...


Cal.

Disclaimer - playing with the Combat Tweaks (v26) Mod, as well as my archery tweak

Modifié par Calzier, 26 janvier 2010 - 12:59 .

[nYshak]

Fake Death is a useful tool combined with Stealth. Sneak up to a mage before combat even starts, cut his throat with everything you got -> fake death. Enemies will retreat, the mage is dead and your buddies can then start rushing in from around the corner.

[MeltyLotus]

Not sure if mentioned yet.



Does anyone else feel the rogue should be able poison their bow? Or give them rune slots. Or better, craft poison arrows. Craft arrows in general maybe?



I would like either of these options. This way the archer can get the boost they need to help the party. Either that or its just rapid shot forever. I see no reason to use any other buff, just too slow and weak.



Poison please

[PSRdirector]

Rouge is my favorite class, but yea the armor kinda bland looking and wish they had a bit better evade abilities.



I went Assasin Duelist, makes you very leathal 1 on 1 fighter able to dish out alot of damadge very quickly with out much trouble but if you get swarmed I tended to drop. I didnt mind carring a rouge if you wanted to lock pick and I would think giving warriors the ability to smash locks would make warriors op and rouges seem skillless. only rouges shoudl picklocks and pick pockets, else makes those skills as pointless as walking.



but yea didnt like the ease of getting dropped fast and that all the armor kinda looks the same.

[MGeezer]

My basic mesage for Devs is, by and large, don't mess with a good thing.  I find rogues the most fun class to play in the game, both as a player-character, or playing Leliana or Zevron as part of the party. I am so fond of rogues  that I have even played a party of three rogues and a dog for an entire game.

A three rogue party works in part because there are so many ways to develop a rogue that there are lots of things you can do.  Do not eliminate trees or specializations.  To counter one common opinion, because I like light, no warrior parties, I really love ranger for giving me a free and dispensable tank.  Ranger is not a worthless specialization contrary to some comments I noted. 

The one tweak I would like to see made is to make the archery specialization.  At high levels it is devestatingly effective, and is Ok at low levels, but at itnermediate levels (before you get arrow of slaying and scattershot) it is a bit weak compared to other weapon specializations, and even as compared to a single melee weapon with appropriate rogue fighting skills.

In any case--very good work with the rogue class--don't mess around too much with a very good thing.

Modifié par MGeezer, 26 janvier 2010 - 07:36 .

[Atrea]

What do you like and dislike about the Rogue?
[/list]Like: You can make a rogue a 'do it all' character.
Dislike: Archery is weak, barely any good armor available.

Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Rogue?
[/list]Overpowered: Daggers
Underpowered: Armor, archery and ranger

What are your favorite Rogue specializations? What are your least favorite?
[/list]I think all of them are pretty good. But the ranger is a little weak

What are your favorite Rogue talent trees? What are your least favorite?[/list]Fav: Dual Wield
Least fav.: Archery

[Relshar]

Overall I liked the rogue class and specs.

The thing I disliked alot about the rogue was that it had a lack of weapons and armour. Also I didn't like the fact that rogues could wear any kind of armour either. And if they wore leather their high dex did not help in its use.



Assassins mark of death skill breaks stealth I was hoping this would let you cast it while being stealthed which would line you up for a nice big alpha strike on the target.



But overall I love this class.

[GregorLightbringer]

Most all the comments here are pretty much acurate. The only thing I could suggest, IMHO, is to remove dual weild from warriors. It's kind of impractical to use skills that are high dex oriented when a warrior needs strenth to use the better amors and swords/axes/hammers/maces.

[sim2er]

i find it annoying to have to switch to the party rogue to unlock stuff:
Leliana: "allow me, i can do that for you!"
Me: "so, what are you waiting for? get your butt over there and pick the door; the darkspawn are waiting."

replace with:
Leliana: "here let me open that for you."
*picks lock*

Modifié par sim2er, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:05 .

[taurinsm]

Another thing I want to add: the talent deadly strike is prettymuch useless. As and archer you wont ever use it, and as a dual wielder it is too slow and not as powerful as a regular attack. especially a backstab. below the belt is cool, especially since you can use it with a bow equipped, but I think deadly strike would be cool if it had an effect similar if not exactly like shattering shot.

[silver-crescent]

Rogues definitely need more armor variety, as it is there basically only 2 or 3 different looks, each with a bounch of different colour variations. Warrior on the other hand have tens of different looking armor sets.



Regarding skills and talents, I think lockpicking should be made a skill instead of a talent. It would make more sense since for example lock picking and stealing are also skills. As it is it ends up gimping the rogues combat abilities as a few talent points have to be spent on that tree.



As for favourite and least favourite specializations, I quite like Duelist, followed by Bard. Assassin isn't nearly as interesting as I had expected, and Ranger looks kind of pointless so I have yet to try it.



A good new specialization would be the ability to enchant and poison your arrows. It would be cool to have an archer related specialization because as it is there is none.

[GregorLightbringer]

silver-crescent wrote...

Rogues definitely need more armor variety, as it is there basically only 2 or 3 different looks, each with a bounch of different colour variations. Warrior on the other hand have tens of different looking armor sets.

Regarding skills and talents, I think lockpicking should be made a skill instead of a talent. It would make more sense since for example lock picking and stealing are also skills. As it is it ends up gimping the rogues combat abilities as a few talent points have to be spent on that tree.

As for favourite and least favourite specializations, I quite like Duelist, followed by Bard. Assassin isn't nearly as interesting as I had expected, and Ranger looks kind of pointless so I have yet to try it.

A good new specialization would be the ability to enchant and poison your arrows. It would be cool to have an archer related specialization because as it is there is none.

Agree on the amor. As of the specialization part, just being able to poison arrows would be enough for me.

[Faffnr]

 What do you like and dislike about the Rogue?

LIKE: party support (backstab, bard songs, stealth scouting/ambushes)
DISLIKE: Sacrificing combat ability for utility.  Result = reduced utility


Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Rogue?
[/list]
Underpowered:  Cannot backstab using ranged weapons
Overpowered:  Max DEX allows high attack rating, high defense, high dagger damage


What are your favorite Rogue specializations? What are your least favorite?
[/list]
Bard is great for party support, ranger is not interesting.


What are your favorite Rogue talent trees? What are your least favorite?
Favorite: Bard songs, Lethality - allows a utility attribute (cunning) to be effective in combat
LEAST favorite: Deft Hands - worth repeating, should be a skill, not a talent.  There aren't enough talent points to go around for a rogue anyways

SUMMARY:  Deft Hands should be a SKILL.

[/list]

[huwie]

For me rogues are the most interesting and fun class to play.

The only suggestion I can think of concerns stealth and auto-attacking: there ought to be a way to automatically suspend aggressive behaviour and tactics while stealth is active -- maybe by having a self:stealth test in the tactics system?

It's a particular issue when using combat stealth because it's irritating to have the rogue drop straight back into combat because you weren't fast enough on issuing a move command. But it also applies when positioning stealthed rogues around an assassination target; without careful management and positioning they can break stealth before the player is ready.

[DrWyrm]

This thread is huge, so I just want to add a couple of points I haven't seen in the first five pages:

Two Too Many Duplicate Talents:
Two "duplicate" talents is too many. The bard's Distraction talent is too similar to Dirty Fighting and Hide, as is the duelist's Upset Balance to Below the Belt. I really don't think it's enough for specialty talents to be "better versions" of core class powers -- every talent in the tree should add something new.

Hamsters and Rangers Everywhere!
Ranger pets are very powerful additions to the party simply through their ability to act as meat-shields. Problem is you get 90% of that capability with a single talent pick. Unless you really like pets, there's little incentive to spend three more.

Being a ranger should imply more than simply "I can has pets?" What I'd like to see is each ranger pet talent granting some sort of passive "aspect of the beast" bonus to the character. It could be minor but notable bonus that's active at all times (my preference) or some more powerful bonus that's only active when the pet is summoned (or some combination of the two). For example:

"Aspect of the Wolf" could give you a stealth movement speed increase. (I'd like to see this somewhere anyway, and this seems thematic.)
"Aspect of the Bear" could give you a fatigue reduction, similar to the Powerful talent warriors get.
"Aspect of the Spider" is begging for a poison-related buff, perhaps allowing you to poison your to arrows as well as our melee weapons (but see below).

Who throws a shoe? Honestly!
A lot of folks have talked about the problems with archery, but honestly I think the main issue with archery isn't archery itself, it's their ammunition.

Why is it okay for mage staffs and melee weapons (through runes) to have unlimited elemental "ammo" when my archers need to scrounge for every fire arrow they can find?

Gold is not plentiful enough to keep archers in endless supplies of elemental arrows in this game. Even if I had access to unlimited gold, I don't think I could purchase (let alone carry) enough arrow stacks to keep my quivers full through a major quest without micro-managing things. Adding insult to injury is the fact that ammo can't be hotkeyed, so the only way to change your ammunition is through the inventory screen.

Personally, I can't think of any sufficient reason for ammunition like "Fire Arrows" to be limited. What we need are "Fire Quivers" that imbue your unlimited mundane arrows with additional fire damage (think of them as runes for bows). If some ammunition is deemed too powerful for unlimited use, there's a simple solution for that too. Quivers get equipped, arrows get used. Drag a stack of special arrows to your hot-bar, and (in a fashion similar to how poison works) when you click it the next shot you fire will be that arrow.

As things stand, managing your archers ammo is entirely too onerous to be worthwhile. It doesn't last long enough and is a PITA to switch around. I strongly believe that if you addressed the issues with ammunition you'd get 90% of the way towards making archers more worthwhile. As a bonus, it'd probably also do all this without requiring significant rebalancing of NPC archers. (Try installing one of those archery addons that "tweak" the archery talent tree and you'll see what I mean.)

BTW, I don't know where you got the rich text editor for you message board, but lists are buggy as heck. They display different between the rich text editor and the actual page after submitting (lists that appear properly terminated in the editor suddenly aren't after being submitted) and editing a post with lists does not work right (you can see the opening and closing ubb list tags, you can't easily get rid of the ul/ol container, and the scrub markup button doesn't work). Switching to BBCode mode adds its own set of problems as well. All of it's very frustrating.

Modifié par DrWyrm, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:10 .

[Bowlerguy18]

What do you like and dislike about the Rogue?
              I like the dual wielding and backstabbing bonus. I think teh stealth talent for a rogue is basically pointless or wasted talent point though.

Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Rogue?
         i feel that if you make a Dual Wield rogue it is far superior to an archer rogue spec. I have played both and in the archer talent tree i feel there is only 3 spells that are worth a darn.

What are your favorite Rogue specializations?
         What are your least favorite? I really like Ranger and Assassin specs. I felt the Ranger spec was a little frustrating though because everytime you zone into an area you pet would despawn and you would have to summon another one because of cooldown. Not being able to save tactics for pets was frustrating also. From what i have read we aren't supposed to be able to mess with pet tactics anyhow? If this is the case the Ranger spec is majorly flawed.

What are your favorite Rogue talent trees? What are your least favorite?
        The melee enhancements the rogue talent tree gives are nice but there is nothing there for a person who wants to play as an Archer primary spec rogue. I didn't like the stealth tree. I felt it was pointless and didn't have a good use in the game.

[/list]

Modifié par Bowlerguy18, 27 janvier 2010 - 06:11 .

[bl00dsh0t]

I will probably repeat a lot of what was said earlier in this 12 page thread but I really do not have the time to read it all atm ^^

Specializations:

Depending on the main focus of the rogue, archer or dual wielder, the preffered specializations vary of course. But for both assasin is almost a requirement to make your hits/arrows more deadly against bosses, just that archers shouldn't take more than mark of death since the rest is based on backstabs. If backstabs would translate to criticals then the assasin specialization could be used to regain stamina by finishing enemies with critical shots, as well as enhance criticals with the cunning attribute. More synergy = win here ^^

I found myself using leliana as secondary dps all game so the bard specialization did not seem so appealing for my pc. And the ranger is mainly for heavy microers since the bear/wolf is somewhat inept and needs to be commanded all the time. Some combat tactics for summons would make this specialization more interesting instead of as a health pool that bloodmages can utilize.

Duelist is a specialization that I love and find redundant at the same time. The attack bonus is what makes me take this specialization in the first place, and keen defense makes this sustained ability awesome but upset balance and pinpoint strike I found myself using rarely. Upset balance feels like just another under the belt while pinpoint strike is made somewhat useless by coup de grace. If you have disablers on your team you will be backstabbing constantly, so what good does a skill that makes you crit all the time for a buttload of stamina do ya? Also annoying that upset balance and pinpoint strike cannot be used by archers, then archers would have a specialization actually worth taking all points in.

Under/overpowered
Well I do not believe the dual wielding rogue is under or overpowered, fits its role perfectly: Fragile but deadly. The archer though goes from borderline useless earlygame to very strong mid and lategame. Perhaps shifting skills like scattershot a bit down the hierarchy so they can be used early would help reduce the uselessness of archers earlygame. Also a way to regain stamina from kills should help avoiding requiring too damn much willpower to do more than scatter shot + AoS + autoattack.

Least favourite rogue talenttree: Lockpicking, hands down lockpicking. This should be a skill...period.. ;D

It confuses me again and again how a chest can prove too much of a challenge for a warrior and mage for that matter. A swift boot to the chest or a spell to unlock chests would allow the rogue to focus more on increasing its deadlyness instead of battling locks and traps. Sure with high enough cunning you can crack all chests without maxing this ability but it is still annoying to choose between loot or fighting ability at any time in the game imo.

Favourite tree
The tree with coup de grace, dirty fighting and combat movement is the most crucial for a rogue, shame it ends in feign death that I never used. Then again if I would bother with nightmare it might come in handy so I shall not diss what I have not used
The lethality and evasion tree is also brilliant and with evasion allows the rogue to tank a bit as well, but above mentioned tree is still superior ^^

Well pardon my rant, I hope it is not too unreadable

Modifié par bl00dsh0t, 27 janvier 2010 - 02:07 .

[CbBurt]

Sorry if I'm repeating: I agree with most of what I've read.

The thing that drove me the craziest was not a problem with the rogue itself, but with the battle situation: You can't escape an area if you're in battle mode!

I like playing stealthy characters who can slip in and out without being seen. I can accept that I'm missing out on experience points by by-passing fights, but I don't like being forced into fights that I can avoid. In some areas, you can be rooms away from the creatures with the doors closed, yet you still can't leave the area (for example, in some areas of the fade).

Also, they can be too powerful at times: I would walk into fights in the wide open,by myself in stealth mode, and just use bombs to kill everything without ever being seen?