38 réponses à ce sujet

[MrBlazay]

In the ME2 launch trailer, we can clearly see Tali pointing her pistola at Legion. So who's side are you on? Will we have to scrap legion to keep Tali around? What would lead to a more successful suicide mission (lol) not picking up legion at all or risking a Tali-Legion showdown?

[Kaylis DX]

Tali trumps all. :3

[Arrtis]

Legion gets depressed and Tali shoots him in the head...not very ultimate.

[talon4000]

I'm guessing that you'd have a better chance for total survival with one or the other, but their interaction should be so interesting I can't bring myself to not bring them both on board. At the moment I'm on tali's side, but I know next to nothing about legion, so I very likely might switch once I bring him on board and talk to him

Modifié par talon4000, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:45 .

[It IS Lupus]

[lokiarchetype]

Surprised people are supporting Tali when the vid basically shows her one trigger-pull away from lynching someone.



"You're going to kill someone who's done nothing wrong because centuries ago their people revolted after you tried to commit genocide against them and forced you off of your homeworld? Yeah... that's not racist at all."

[MrBlazay]

Arrtis wrote...

Legion gets depressed and Tali shoots him in the head...not very ultimate.

It will be ultimate, I think without enough paragon or renegade points, we are going ot have to choose between them.
That will definitely effect our mission.

[ERJAK1]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Surprised people are supporting Tali when the vid basically shows her one trigger-pull away from lynching someone.

"You're going to kill someone who's done nothing wrong because centuries ago their people revolted after you tried to commit genocide against them and forced you off of your homeworld? Yeah... that's not racist at all."

Basically what your saying here is that John Connor is a racist for wanting to destroy the terminators. Yeah Legion is probably better than any other Geth ever built, but Tali's hatred of him is justified, that's why shepard's there. To either convince them to waste each other or convince Tali to give him a chance. 

[MrBlazay]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Surprised people are supporting Tali when the vid basically shows her one trigger-pull away from lynching someone.

"You're going to kill someone who's done nothing wrong because centuries ago their people revolted after you tried to commit genocide against them and forced you off of your homeworld? Yeah... that's not racist at all."

Lets face it, It isnt as simple as racisim, the Geth and Quarians are mortal enimies. And lets not forget, the geth just finished attacking the citadel.

[Rip504]

Why do you assume Legion is innocent?

[ODST 3]

Geth don't have emotions. They can all die!

[Empiro]

MrBlazay wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

Surprised people are supporting Tali when the vid basically shows her one trigger-pull away from lynching someone.

"You're going to kill someone who's done nothing wrong because centuries ago their people revolted after you tried to commit genocide against them and forced you off of your homeworld? Yeah... that's not racist at all."

Lets face it, It isnt as simple as racisim, the Geth and Quarians are mortal enimies. And lets not forget, the geth just finished attacking the citadel.

Also, depending on who you ask (in-game and IRL), machines aren't alive. They can't be murdered. Shooting a Geth is no different than taking a baseball bat to a printer.

Modifié par Empiro, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:03 .

[talon4000]

also how many geth do you as shepard kill on sight, simply for being geth, yes generally if you get close they'll attack, but if you start with a sniper shot, you'll never know if they just wanted to have a tea party. Killing geth is normal for these characters

[lokiarchetype]

ERJAK1 wrote...

Basically what your saying here is that John Connor is a racist for wanting to destroy the terminators. Yeah Legion is probably better than any other Geth ever built, but Tali's hatred of him is justified, that's why shepard's there. To either convince them to waste each other or convince Tali to give him a chance. 

That's not really a good analogy since Terminators are programmed machines (SkyNet is the real AI in this case, it was what became self aware and it creates the Terminators),
It'd be better if we were talking about a particular terminator who, do to unforeseen circumstances, had developed free will and conscious thought and evolved past that programming.

Going with Terminator, it'd be like the T-800 in T2 if he had always been like that (still not great since he's simply reprogrammed, so I'm not sure how much free will/sentience you can ascribe to him).  Killing that would be an act based solely on prejudice, not actual guilt of any crime or wrongdoing.
Or even better, if you've watched Sarah Connor Chronicles, it'd be like destroying John Henry simply because he is a VI like SkyNet.

Rip504 wrote...

Why do you assume Legion is innocent?

Because there's always a presumption of innocence, you can't just say "He's Geth, he must be guilty of something". 
That'd be categorically prejudicial, you'd be making an assumption of wrongdoing based solely on his species.  If you did it based on race, it'd be racism.  When cops do that it's called profiling and they get quite a bit of heat for it.

Also, depending on who you ask (in-game and IRL), machines aren't
alive. They can't be murdered. Shooting a Geth is no different than
taking a baseball bat to a printer.

Geth have their own religion and them asking existential questions is what lead to the genocide against them.  That makes them sentient beings, which makes killing in them in cold blood murder.

Calling other people subhuman or animals is how nations have justified wars and mass-killings in the past, that doesn't make it true, it just makes it easier to carry out the deed without guilt.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:27 .

[Xivai]

ODST 3 wrote...

Geth don't have emotions. They can all die!

Really? They showed fear for their life when they questioned and then the quarians tried to kill them.

[Empiro]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Geth have their own religion and them asking existential questions is what lead to the genocide against them.  That makes them sentient beings, which makes killing in them in cold blood murder.

Calling other people subhuman or animals is how nations have justified wars and mass-killings in the past, that doesn't make it true, it just makes it easier to carry out the deed without guilt.

I could counter that since the Geth don't have emotions (they lack even a basic instinct like fear, as shown by the Enemies video), then no matter how smart they get, in the end they're just computers with really advanced programming. And of course, that's the kind of subtlety that makes Mass Effect such a great setting.

But anyways, this discussion is moot for me: Tali gets what Tali wants. Legion is a pile a rubble.

Modifié par Empiro, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:27 .

[UndercoverDoctor]

Tali sucks, Legion rules.

[lokiarchetype]

Empiro wrote...

I could counter that since the Geth don't have emotions (they lack even a basic instinct like fear, as shown by the Enemies video), then no matter how smart they get, in the end they're just computers with really advanced programming. And of course, that's the kind of subtlety that makes Mass Effect such a great setting.

But anyways, this discussion is moot for me: Tali gets what Tali wants. Legion is a pile a rubble.

Emotions don't make something sentient, self-awareness does, which they have.

It'd be like saying killing Data is okay.

And it's pretty terrible to be allow someone to kill another sentient being just because you really like them. 
Legion is an evolution of the Geth, a continuation of his type could result in peace between organics and synthetics.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:34 .

[tommythetomcat]

UndercoverDoctor wrote...

Tali sucks, Legion rules.

[oXPsYXo]

If allowed i will save them both, party them up as my main team and visit the Quarian Flotilla with Legion in hand. Hilarity will ensue. Otherwise i'll most likely save Legion if he's anything as interesting as he seems.

Modifié par oXPsYXo, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:36 .

[Annihilator27]

Ashley has shepard's "back"

[Doodly_Coopens]

Was there not an achievement for saving everyone? Why does one teammate have to die?



Legion > Tali 0.o

[Empiro]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Empiro wrote...

I could counter that since the Geth don't have emotions (they lack even a basic instinct like fear, as shown by the Enemies video), then no matter how smart they get, in the end they're just computers with really advanced programming. And of course, that's the kind of subtlety that makes Mass Effect such a great setting.

But anyways, this discussion is moot for me: Tali gets what Tali wants. Legion is a pile a rubble.

Emotions don't make something sentient, self-awareness does, which they have.

It'd be like saying killing Data is okay.

And interestingly enough, such a theme was explored in Star Trek too.

And no, the point isn't moot.  It's an important point to the series.

Ah, but I said that this point is moot for me .  I'll do what Tali wants .

But let me also pose a hypothetical, just for fun. Let's say that in the final mission, you have to sacrifice one of your squadmates (or yourself). How high is Legion on that list?

[Legend5]

This might sound weird but in the video it seems like legion is trying to say sorry. I base this of, from what i see, legion hanging his head and kind of accepting her pointing a pistol at him, he had no violent action as from what we saw.

[lokiarchetype]

Empiro wrote...


Ah, but I said that this point is moot for me .  I'll do what Tali wants .

Ah yes, that's why I editted it after I posted it

But let me also pose a hypothetical, just for fun. Let's say that in the final mission, you have to sacrifice one of your squadmates (or yourself). How high is Legion on that list?

I'll certainly answer what your question seems to be getting at-

I consider Legion as legitimate a lifeform as any of the other squadmates, just as I consider Data on equal footing with the other humanoids of the Stark Trek cast (though I find his character more interesting).  He has an awareness of his existence and a desire to continue it, whether or not more complex emotions are attached. 

And, from a utilitarian standpoint, he is likely more important to the future than any of the rest.  He represents as radical change in how Geth operate and a path towards peaceful relations.