289 réponses à ce sujet

[hypern]

I think the best way to put it is that the geth aren't all alike and some are evil, both sides did bad things to each-other and they both have greivances but there is one thing that is certain the qurians started the war.

[NovaZero]

Ooh, don't forget the part where they're right to be angry at the rest of the Galaxy for trying to wipe them out for simply existing!

[thompsonaf]

Sentient life is sentient life.

I don't disagree that Geth are sentient, however I still equate their value to that of a toaster.

As for Tali or quarians not forgiving the geth, you must not be very imaginative then.

Would you forgive the Geth? I wouldn't, I don't think I could.

[thompsonaf]

NovaZero wrote...
[SNIP]
On a more practical note -- why not? Let's strip apart all those preconceptions you have and see how it is you come to see that robots, no matter their limit in sentience is incapable of being remotely associated to human beings. Let's see... they are capable of logical thought -- check! They in all likelihood operate on some kind of energy. Hmm... let's see, the human body has nerves all over its protein form which, wow -- we operate off electrical currents! Uhh, their brain is some freaky-quantum box-thingy. Ours is a chemical dome.

Damn it. I'm a machine and possess no soul or right to claim my humanity. Oh, the drama!

I don't look at individual parts. I look at the sum of the whole. When I look at Geth, I see killer robots.

[thompsonaf]

NovaZero wrote...

Ooh, don't forget the part where they're right to be angry at the rest of the Galaxy for trying to wipe them out for simply existing!

They have every right to be angry. Doesn't mean I still wouldn't wipe them all out. To me, they're just robots.

[MonkMorkins]

thompsonaf wrote...

NovaZero wrote...

Ooh, don't forget the part where they're right to be angry at the rest of the Galaxy for trying to wipe them out for simply existing!

They have every right to be angry. Doesn't mean I still wouldn't wipe them all out. To me, they're just robots.

They are far more than that.  They are aware of themselves.  They saw themselves as threatened and attacked to preserve their existance.  How is that any different from what other species would do?  How is that any different from how humans would have reacted?

What defines organic life as being the only life possible?  Why isn't non-organic life plausible?  Your argument comes across as narrow-minded.

They may not be alive in the exact same way that we are alive, but that doesn't make them any less alive.

[NovaZero]

An enemy is an enemy. I would rather recognize them to be the level of humanity than to equate them to being toasters.

Because it's more than a little embarrassing to say you got defeated and possibly even killed by killer-toaster; no matter HOW you dice it.

But their status as an enemy and their association to humans is unrelated. After all, as far as enemies go -- you got the Batarians, the Reapers and the evil bug-eyed-fish-people to contend with. All sentient. All capable of rational and logical thought -- all capable of communicating and have some physical form of anatomy. And yes, that goes for the whole.

And... dude, edit button's there for a reason.

Xaeldaren wrote...

Thompson, you do realise you sound exactly like a white male would, had you been born in a time where slavery was rampant and women disenfranchised?

Their justification for their ignorance was based upon (later revealed to be) untenable and false assumptions about intelligence or genetic (or 'divine' pre-Darwin) inferiority, manifest destiny etc.

I thought my implying that flew right over people's heads... huh. Thanks!

Modifié par NovaZero, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:35 .

[Sonris]

Tali's people were attacked by the geth kicked off their planet and the geth havn't improved their diplomacy much over the years.



Ash is ignorant, she comes off as hot headed and xenophobic and the bible thumping aspect further pushed me away from her. One of the things I like about ME is the lack of familiar religions. Plus ash has the face of a horse and quotes poetry all the time.



And there is that obnoxious pink and white armor.



Come to think of it there was nothing I liked about Ash, and I can never bring myself to chose her over Kaiden, even though I used him for like 2 missions in 3 playthroughs,



I look forward to seeing how tali will develop. I don't think I would care about ash.

[NovaZero]

And so you shouldn't. If she died, then apparently, that's the end of that. Right?

[Sonris]

MonkMorkins wrote...

thompsonaf wrote...

NovaZero wrote...

Ooh, don't forget the part where they're right to be angry at the rest of the Galaxy for trying to wipe them out for simply existing!

They have every right to be angry. Doesn't mean I still wouldn't wipe them all out. To me, they're just robots.

They are far more than that.  They are aware of themselves.  They saw themselves as threatened and attacked to preserve their existance.  How is that any different from what other species would do?  How is that any different from how humans would have reacted?

What defines organic life as being the only life possible?  Why isn't non-organic life plausible?  Your argument comes across as narrow-minded.

They may not be alive in the exact same way that we are alive, but that doesn't make them any less alive.

The geth were only prepareing for the crackdown, the Qurians fired the first shot.

[NovaZero]

Or they were creating an insurance policy to ensure their survival and were simply monitoring the Quarians with the futile hope that they might come to accept them for what they are. After all, you do get to see how they sort of worship the Quarians... and rightly so -- they are, after all, their creators. As far as their concerned, the Quarians are god.

While it's pure speculation, there is the arguable point that this concept of their "hope" could be a form of sentiment thus reinforcing my and quite a few other people's points as to they as a society/race/species are justifiably "human".

Fairytale aside.

Modifié par NovaZero, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:51 .

[Inverness Moon]

I've got a suggestion for everyone in this thread.



Assuming Legion is a squad member (WINK) and he can be acquired before Tali's loyalty mission (WINK), bring him along.

[Malastare-]

thompsonaf wrote...

Geth are machines. Not people. I don't mess with existentialist crap. The difference is very simple.

RIght... That existentialist crap is all about thinking and understanding and exploring possibilities outside of my pitifully small experience.  And thinking is hard.  Better to just take the simplest explanation I can shoehorn into my brain.

thompsonaf wrote...

You have wierd ideas about people.
Anyways, I never had any intent to debate, my opinions and attitudes
about the subject are set in stone, just as I assum are yours. I just
like to engage in my lulzy side every now and then.

Yeah, you don't want to become one of those flip-flopper people who change their mind when provided with overwhelming evidence.   Just hold on to your opinions and never ever let them go.  That's the best way to help the human race progress.  It's not as if refusing to change your mind has ever caused dozens of wars.  Okay.  Well, it's never caused hundreds of wars.

Okay, so it should be "It never caused thousands of wars," but that would require changing your opinion.

thompsonaf wrote...

Yeah...see. I use common sense, like:
toaster =/= person. If someone actually created a real AI I could never
see it as anything other than a pale imitation of life and morally
reprehensible.

Exactly.  Common sense is much better than using reason, or logic, or understanding of worthless subjects like science.  Common sense is something that everyone has, but not everyone has intelligence, so it seems unfair to try to use rational thought, am I right?

(end sarcasm)

People don't quite see the more disturbing issue here.  Saying "I think humans are better than everyone else" is no less racist/xenophobic than saying "I think white people are better than everyone else."  Saying "I could never accept AI as being sentient because it doesn't work like we do" is only a superficial step away from "I could never accept (indigenous people) as being real people because they don't live like we do".  And "Anyone who thinks differently is just weakening the human race" is well... if you can't see that as being horribly racist/xenophobic, then you're a lost cause. Add a little "And I refuse to examine my opinions or ever change my mind" and you're all set up for war and attrocity.  Yay!

Sure, it seems trivial to point that senseless prejudice against something that doesn't exist (yet), but it doesn't change the fact that you find it really easy to let yourself have a senseless prejudice.  Many people actually seem to take pride in this.  I find this disappointing for my species.

[Dellingr]

[quote]SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Tali's dislike of the Geth felt much simpler to me: The Quarians have a vested interest in portraying the Geth as vile and evil monsters and it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that they instill that same hatred in their children. Tali just swallowed that philosophy whole and since she's never spoke to a Geth, she never had the chance to question it. I'm hoping that having the much more mellow and calm Legion around will show her otherwise.
Ashley just thinks that humans shouldn't be trying so desperately to gain the trust of the Council. That's not so bad, but Ashley-haters grabbed that and called her 'racist'. Go figure, right?[/quote]

This, Tali's specieist, but it's the result of indoctrination (as opposed to Indoctrination) by the society she's grown up in rather than an opinion she herself formed

and the Geth don't strike me as inherently genocidal against organics (though the ones that worship reapers definitely are), more..... agressively isolationist, and considering their initial experiences with organics and quarians in particular, I'd totally understand them not wanting much to do with them

[quote]lokiarchetype wrote...

Portraying it as okay for Organics
to hate the Geth due to their attacks and considering it justified is
no different than Geth thinking it's justified to attack Organics after
Organics (the Quarians) tried to kill them all, which happened first.

[/quote]


precisement,
though I can see irrational panic on the Quarians part leading to them
doing something stupid as a knee-jerk reaction rather than it being a
considered decision. Regardless, the geth seem totally justified in
defending themselves and then being very isolationist (admittedly,
their treatment of that freighter crew wasn't very nice) until many of
them came to worship Sovvie-who was the real reason for their becoming
agressors rather than just active self-defenders. And as we know now,
it wasn't all of them that worshipped the reaper in the first place

[quote]Schneidend wrote...



True, true species (the geth are not
a species, they don't reproduce), didn't ask to exist, either. But, the
difference there is that the geth WERE undeniably created willfully,
and with a specific purpose in mind. They didn't have to exist.



Humans,
for example, can't be proven to have been "created" by anything or
anyone. Therefore, we don't have a pre-defined purpose. We don't need
one, either. We're not tools.

[/quote]



Constructing new
individuals counts as reproduction IMO, and it's a form of reproduction
that's allowed them to rapidly evolve in terms of processing power
(Legion doesn't need to borrow processing power from nearby others in
order to be smart) and also in terms of new and specialised body forms
(there were definitely no hoppers when they decimated the quarians-so
says the codex)



[quote]lokiarchetype wrote...





While the majority of geth work
using a neural network which is comparable to a hive mind, other Geth
like Legion have evolved beyond that point.





[/quote]





it's....
not a hive mind, they just individually get smarter when they're in
groups, they share processing power and communicate rapidly through
their network, they don't share memories or think as one. Networked computers each do their own thing without any trouble.

[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The little story I wrote,
Steve1945, is easily changed to something more serious to defend
Legion's background. After a war which involved two countries look at
the way their history is written. They probably won't match. I hope
something like that happens in ME2. [/quote]

Exactment! There are two sides to every story, and usually neither is objectively correct but both contain elements of the truth, perhaps with Legion's side of the story we can form a better picture of the full truth

[quote]SomethinNothing wrote...

[quote]fairandbalancedfan wrote...

I
would call it Human nature. Geth sought vengeance, probably and any
other race would do the same. The Salarians did that with the Krogan,
and the Krogans did that with the Rachni.

[/quote]

True.

But perhaps then "Sentient Nature" would be a better term.

On one end of the sentient spectrum, compassion. On the other, contempt

[/quote]

I
tend to see that more as the salarians placing a disposable species
between themselves and the rachni and then neutering them when their
soldiers didn't want to just disappear when no longer needed.

but above is right, it's pretty much sentient nature

[quote]SrGrvsaLot wrote... *lots of stuff that makes sense IMO*
...(Yes, they were created by the Quarians, but I think this is an
ethical issue we have so far not had to deal with - once you build
something that knows enough to fear oblivion, you no longer have the
right to turn it off).



So, in conclusion. Tali is a racist. Cult Deprogramming and Marshall plan for the Geth.[/quote]



you
hit the nail on the head there, they just need to be shown that the
Reapers are just using them (I don't think the reapers would tolerate
the existance of "less perfect" synthetic life any more than organics
once they were done using the geth as their tools) (kinda like what you
said to wrex about how the Saren only cured the genophage to use the
krogans as his tools, come to think of it). Course, I'd expect the deep
mutual distrust and bad blood/lubricant between Quarians and Geth to
take a very long time to fade-maybe never entirely, but living in
mutual distrust is a better option than pissing resources, lives and
the respect of the galactic community away in a senseless
blood/lubricant feud that would eventually leave even the winner
crippled



[quote]sirisaacx wrote...





[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...





Geth are more efficient when they work in groups, but they can work on their own as well. [/quote]


But they are not senient on their own.





[/quote]





no,
they're sentient, they're just not especially smart when they're alone,
I believe the comparison mentioned is that lone geth=smart dog level of
intelligence

[quote]Zurcior wrote...

Whatever the reason, I'm gonna avoid
Legion as much as possible until I get my charm or intimidate way up. I
don't want Tali to kill Legion, and I sure as hell don't want to be
forced to kill Tali. To hell with THAT option.[/quote]

Yeah,
same here, I'm thinking that's an equivalent of the Wrex situation,
except instead of finding a way to avoid killing a teammate yourself,
convincing Tali not to kill another teammate.

[quote]Malastare- wrote...
And (bringing us back on topic) this
specific view is a perfect example of the sort of "racism" that people
hated Ashley and the Terra Firma people for.  Now, at least with
Ashley, there was an argument that she didn't actually think that way. 
For the Terra Firma people, their supremecist bigotry is pretty public.
[/quote]
in fact, if I recall correctly, even Ash thinks TF are a bunch of nutters

[quote]Krilral wrote...

[quote]Lucazius wrote...


I
also think the Quarians brough their doom upon themselves, but, other
species in Citadel space tried to contact with the Geth, and they never
answered.[/quote]

I think the Geth never answered because they
are afraid the organics will try to destroy them. That was after all
their first experience with organics.
[/quote]

This, though I
wouldn't say "afraid" so much as "not seeing much point in engaging the
organics in conversation, based on the information we have about how
their hardware functions in relation to us" (fear and lashing out)

[quote]Empiro wrote...

...Once the Quarian military was
defeated, the Geth could have easily demanded the Quarian surrender, or
they could have demanded the Quarians build them ships so that they can
leave the planet. But no, instead they decided to keep killing off the
Quarian people until only 1 out of 1000 of them were left alive and
managed to flee. These were just civilians that almost certainly had
absolutely nothing to do with the original order to shut down the Geth...

[/quote]

Q: if the quarians won, what were they going to do to the geth?
A: more than the geth actually did to them

the
Geth's only experience with how organic beings behave/conduct conflict
at this point is what the quarians are trying to do to them, so at
worst I'd say they're mimicking what their enemy would do to them were
the situation reversed, and in the event they in fact did less than
that. My guess?  the geth figure that once you're sure your enemy's
completely neutralised as a threat to you, it's inefficient to keep
attacking, at this early stage they're probably driven by cost/benefit
analyses far more that organics (and more than they are now, I'd think)
and I doubt they'd have much of a concept of malice. Turians, it should
be noted, also think along these lines with regard to millitary doctrine

[quote]God_Emperor wrote...
many good points [/quote]

now that's interesting, I can definitely see the Geth at that stage reacting like little children who haven't yet
worked out concepts of right and wrong and genocide, though remember
they didn't chase the quarians and I'd support that being a
cost-benefit analysis decision, that idea actually makes the
quarians-as "adults" who did understand that stuff, look even worse
with regard to trying to wipe the geth out but also setting a really
bad example for the geth of how organic beings behave and
role-modelling similar behaviour for their "children". An example that
the Geth seem to have been working with (and few others) ever since

Yeah, that was a wall of text...

[Sonris]

Xaeldaren wrote...

Malastre, I'm a guy with a girlfriend, and you just got me hard.

Also, I have to wonder how many of the anti-Geth positions are based upon ridiculous religious positions, based around the higher intrinsic value of an organic,  due to their possession of a 'soul'. Lol.

I like the geth, I think they are a very interesting species. Now they fought a defensive war against the Qurians for freedom and survival, not unlike any organic species would I imagine. They have a form of religion like many species and they are not outwardly aggresive, just defensive because thier existances threatens less effcient organic races.

The geth have proven to be more seclusionist then anything, I mean they have proven to be more then capable of taking on the citadel species and yet they stay in thier own part of space, and the pushed the Qurians out of thier space rather then outright killing them. Thats almost merciful all considering.

They are being used by the reapers and would be killed off like everyone else, or enslaved. I think legion will offer alot of perspective on the geth.

[PSUHammer]

Aside from the fact that this thread is one of the geekier that I have seen, I think people are WAY to quick to label others racist. Just because you have an opinion or two that you disagree with, doesn't make the entirety of that person a racist. It is hard to really label someone without understanding their backgrounds, history, motives, ambitions, etc. You can't get that from a few lines of dialogue.

[Kyero]

honestly, why is this thread still going?

[thompsonaf]

What defines organic life as being the only life possible?  Why isn't non-organic life plausible?  Your argument comes across as narrow-minded.

I never said I was open minded to the possibility of non-organic life. If you look at my posts I'm quite consistent with my ant-killer robot opinion.

Thompson, you do realise you sound exactly like a white male would, had you been born in a time where slavery was rampant and women disenfranchised?

I'm talking about fictional space robots, your talking about real life slavery. Have I once stated white male superiority over any other human race? No I havent. Because I don't believe in that. You're stretching.

And... dude, edit button's there for a reason

I agree, sorry about that.

I thought my implying that flew right over people's heads... huh. Thanks!

I got exactly what you were implying, however I disagree with your views.

RIght... That existentialist crap is all about thinking and understanding and exploring possibilities outside of my pitifully small experience.  And thinking is hard.  Better to just take the simplest explanation I can shoehorn into my brain.

They're killer robots from space...seriously what is their to think about? They're abhorrent.

Yeah, you don't want to become one of those flip-flopper people who change their mind when provided with overwhelming evidence.   Just hold on to your opinions and never ever let them go.  That's the best way to help the human race progress.  It's not as if refusing to change your mind has ever caused dozens of wars.  Okay.  Well, it's never caused hundreds of wars.

Okay, so it should be "It never caused thousands of wars," but that would require changing your opinion

Why haven't I changed my mind? Because I like my opinion on the matter, thats why. The idea of intelligent robots(toasters) with guns does not fill me with thoughts of joy.

Exactly.  Common sense is much better than using reason, or logic, or understanding of worthless subjects like science.  Common sense is something that everyone has, but not everyone has intelligence, so it seems unfair to try to use rational thought, am I right?

It is common sense, you would welcome armed sentient robots?

People don't quite see the more disturbing issue here.  Saying "I think humans are better than everyone else" is no less racist/xenophobic than saying "I think white people are better than everyone else."  Saying "I could never accept AI as being sentient because it doesn't work like we do" is only a superficial step away from "I could never accept (indigenous people) as being real people because they don't live like we do".  And "Anyone who thinks differently is just weakening the human race" is well... if you can't see that as being horribly racist/xenophobic, then you're a lost cause. Add a little "And I refuse to examine my opinions or ever change my mind" and you're all set up for war and attrocity.  Yay!

Sure, it seems trivial to point that senseless prejudice against something that doesn't exist (yet), but it doesn't change the fact that you find it really easy to let yourself have a senseless prejudice.  Many people actually seem to take pride in this.  I find this disappointing for my species.

Twisting my words? I didn't say the human race was better than everyone else. Ever. Look through my posts. I have never said anything negative about any human race, color, or ethnicity in my posts. You simply are lying. I have said fictional killer robots from space, to me, are not equal to living organic beings. To me, they're just robots. You are implying something that is not there. I have a predijuce against fictional space robots. Wow. Somehow that translates to hating all non-white males. Good job on that one, ******.

Modifié par thompsonaf, 25 janvier 2010 - 01:35 .

[Monochrome Wench]

This thread is still going cause its interesting.

[phimseto]

Geth are constructs, and artificial intelligence is still that: artificial. Tali has a reasonable hatred for a group of machines that commited genocide against her people. If it were up to the geth, all organic life would have been destroyed by the Reapers. If I have the chance to eliminate the geth completely, I will happily seize that opportunity.

Modifié par phimseto, 25 janvier 2010 - 02:09 .

[Inverness Moon]

You do not need to avoid acquiring Legion until you get your charm/intimidate up.

[DPSSOC]

phimseto wrote...

Geth are constructs, and artificial intelligence is still that: artificial. Tali has a reasonable hatred for a group of machines that commited genocide against her people. If it were up to the geth, all organic life would have been destroyed by the Reapers. If I have the chance to eliminate the geth completely, I will happily seize that opportunity.

And how many Geth have you spoken to?  We don't know why they sided with the Reapers only that they did, as for what the Geth did to the Quarians the Quarians struck first, that's a lot like me blaming the guy I tried to mug for breaking my nose.  You'll notice that the Geth never pursued the Quarians, or any organics, beyond the boundaries of their space.  For 300 years the Geth were content to remain behind the Veil, does that not hint at the possibility that they just wanted to be left alone?  We have no insight into the motives or values of the Geth, but if genocidal rage was all it was they would have pushed past the Veil after the Quarians and launched at least 1 attack on the Citadel species.  The reason for this is their only conflict with organics was a resounding victory, they had no reason to believe that organics posed any real threat to them so if the extermination of organics was something that they wanted why not push on then when they had every reason to believe they could win?

Now as for the Geth being artificial.  The events with the Quarians showed that they were self aware, an entity that is not aware of it's own existence does not seek to preserve it, their worship of the Reapers and construction of the Temple/Church area on Feros shows that their awareness is in similar abstract terms to our own.  By Tali's admission the Geth have evolved from what they were.  Now if this is a natural process of their programming it means they, like any living organism, are capable of growth and change.  If this is a deliberate process it shows a desire to improve upon themselves, this requires both desire and the ability to recognize and ackowledge their weaknesses.  The only real difference between the Geth and the Turians, Asari, Quarians, Humans, etc. seems to be that organics are made of squishier parts.

Now Tali is a racist, her indiscriminate hatred of the Geth is racism, but it's racism born of ignorance not malice.

[kalerab]

phimseto wrote...

Geth are constructs, and artificial intelligence is still that: artificial. Tali has a reasonable hatred for a group of machines that commited genocide against her people. If it were up to the geth, all organic life would have been destroyed by the Reapers. If I have the chance to eliminate the geth completely, I will happily seize that opportunity.

In fact quarians tried to commited genocide against geth. Geth may be AI, but they have self-awarness, they developed themself, they want to live and they have conciousness. What geth did was fought back, the quarians did this to themself, but I can see the hatred the quarians have against the geth. First of all - nothing is black and white, so the geth ain´t evil and quarians the good guys or vice versa. What quarians did was act of self-preservation when they feel treatened by geth developing from VI to AI, what geth did was act of self-defence when they fought quarians and drove them out of Perseus Veil. The biggest mistake of quarians was that they never looked for peaceull solution, they never negotiated and first of all - they never got past the war. Instead of collonizing the new world in Citadel Space, or anywhere beyond Perseus Veil they stayed on Migrant fleet, roaming for the home they lost, and as a result they lost their immune systems and are forced to live in protective suits. Geth stayed in Perseus Veil after war, never reaching beyond it, never started a war againt either geth or organics, they just stayed there and developed. I read a few spoilers regarding the Legion by those who already played it, but I´m not gonna give them away but as was already stated countless times - the geth which allied themself with Souvereign are heretics - those who abondened the rest of the geth in Perseus Veil and marched with Sovereign. The rest of the geth didn´t. Not all geth allied themself with Reapers to exterminate organics, only one fraction.