289 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Trust me guys, bring Legion with you when you go to the quarian flotilla.

[NovaZero]

Kyero wrote...

honestly, why is this thread still going?

I mentioned the reason as to why much, much earlier. See it first starts with a man and a woman -- then somewhere along the line, in order for a thread to exist within this forum, the same parties of people must continue to bring up redundant points which will continue to be reiterated and "argued" upon even when no one stands in the way as to oppose them.

Then again, some people don't pay attention to entire thread and actually realize that they're stealing terms from somebody else's post.

[NovaZero]

NO! DUDE! SPOILERS!

[Kwonnern]

Actually, in this case, you CAN hate a whole race, since the Geth does not have individuals that differ from the rest, they all share the same mentality and motivation.



They are all the same with the same goal.



If i have understood the Geth correctly, there are not some Geth-indivuals that are good and try to fight the good fight, helping others etc, but they all work for the same goal. They are all the same.

[Bebbe777]

Kwonnern wrote...

Actually, in this case, you CAN hate a whole race, since the Geth does not have individuals that differ from the rest, they all share the same mentality and motivation.

They are all the same with the same goal.

If i have understood the Geth correctly, there are not some Geth-indivuals that are good and try to fight the good fight, helping others etc, but they all work for the same goal. They are all the same.

Well, their is splinter factions and Legion seem to be kinda different. But in general they would seem like a Hive, just like the Collectors. 

[finc.loki]

Malastare- wrote...

finc.loki wrote...

Sure in the game the Geth are sentient, but I would hardly call them sapient.

Why not?  Because you disagree with their judgment?  Remember, the definition of sentient is not "sensing the world the way I do" and the definition of sapient is not "making the same judgments I would".  The geth are clearly sentient.  They've gone beyond abstract sensation of the world around them, and have already pondered their own thoughts and existence. They also seem to have some appreciation of art (purposefully retaining memories of Quarian dance and music) and have developed their own religion.  Sapience is a necessary precursor to both.

As we know them, the geth have reached (at least) the stage of development that we associate with Cro Magnon Man.  And, as I'm sure you know, the only difference between Cro Magnon and modern humans, is the technological luggage we've carried with us through the centuries.  

Well opinions.

In my opinion sapience is NOT required for religion, quite the contrary, faith is the word you're looking for.

It will be interesting getting more insight to the Geth via Legion, although he might be different from them, perhaps an evolution of them?

[finc.loki]

LucidStrike wrote...

finc.loki wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...
...Why bring up your iPod? Why is anyone bringing up any mordern day consumer electronic to compare to sentient, sapient beings?

Sure in the game the Geth are sentient, but I would hardly call them sapient.

Yeah, because it doesn't take sapience to question the meaning of one eixstence, worship "higher powers", carry out interstellar warfare, or form political factons. Legion certainly isn't sapient.

I suppose the Reapers aren't sapient either.

Well this is where our opinion differs.

I hardly think it require sapience (wisdom) to worship a higher power, more likely it require sapience NOT to.
Same goes for warfare.

Legion is different from other Geth, I believe he has "evolved" , he will certainly be interesting.

In the game all of them are sentient, that's for sure.

[shinobi602]

Kwonnern wrote...

Actually, in this case, you CAN hate a whole race, since the Geth does not have individuals that differ from the rest, they all share the same mentality and motivation.

They are all the same with the same goal.

If i have understood the Geth correctly, there are not some Geth-indivuals that are good and try to fight the good fight, helping others etc, but they all work for the same goal. They are all the same.

WRONG. You'll find out you're terribly wrong when you play ME2.

[finc.loki]

I think some people in this thread that take machine sentience and sapience a little to serious should form a group called

PETG/M : People for the Ethical Treatment of Geth/Machines.

Yes it is a wordplay of PETA....

Modifié par finc.loki, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:31 .

[finc.loki]

Inverness Moon wrote...

thompsonaf wrote...

Sialboats wrote...

[SNIP]


What do you define a person as? 

Because if it has anything to do with thought and emotion, Legion and his Geth splinter-faction compatriots are pretty damn close to one.

I define people as not having WD40 for blood and an element zero core for a heart.

With such ridiculous arguments I can't identify you as anything but ignorant, or a troll. Do you disagree?

Are you serious? :blink::lol:

You honestly think machines are people, I can google map the fastest part to an asylum if you like.

[kalerab]

finc.loki wrote...

Are you serious? :blink::lol:

You honestly think machines are people, I can google map the fastest part to an asylum if you like.

Philosophycal question - what makes us, humans, different from animals in your opinion?

[finc.loki]

kalerab wrote...

finc.loki wrote...

Are you serious? :blink::lol:

You honestly think machines are people, I can google map the fastest part to an asylum if you like.

Philosophycal question - what makes us, humans, different from animals in your opinion?

Are dog's people too?

Some would argue that some animals are sentient, still I wouldn't consider them people.

Ai Machines are constructs made by other organic living species, they would not exist on their own.
Sure silicon based life might exist but that is merely a difference from carbon based to sillicon based.

Ai has to be created, I personally don't think machines could ever reach sentience as living organisms have.

All these arguments for the machines are quite frankly based in FICTION, organic life is NOT.

Regarding speciesm, which would you save first, a dog or a human child?
Don't bring up some silly racism, that is WITHIN the human race and has nothing to do with it.

I would save a dog over a machine for example.
If a machine "dies" I just remove the memory/cpu core and build another and say welcome back when IT wakes up.
The human or the dog, will be gone forever.

These are some interesting viewpoints I think.
Where do we draw the line?

Being a racist is bad, but being a speciest, I think is something completely different, at least not as easy to dicern right from wrong.

I would think saving your own species is NR1, except perhaps if your own species want to kill everything else.

Food for thought....

Modifié par finc.loki, 26 janvier 2010 - 12:07 .

[kalerab]

finc.loki wrote...

Are dog's people too?

Some would argue that some animals are sentient, still I wouldn't consider them people.

Ai Machines are constructs made by other organic living species, they would not exist on their own.

That is true, so far but you´re forgetting on one thing. Geth developted and they exist on their own. They are not longer the simple machines which are designed for some purupse given. That is what we call free will and what is basic difference between toaster and living beeing.

finc.loki wrote...

Sure silicon based life might exist but that is merely a difference from carbon based to sillicon based.

Ai has to be created, I personally don't think machines could ever reach sentience as living organisms have.

All these arguments for the machines are quite frankly based in FICTION, organic life is NOT.

What you´re talking about is form, the shell of counciousness which makes us who we are. In next to every religion the body is seen as shell for soul, as two connected things which let us live as we are on this plane of existence. Till today the modern medicine cannot give us the answer on what is counciousness, what we really are, what is our soul. Therefore nothing prooves us today that body and sould are connected or are the one and the same thing and this exactly is used by supporters of euthanasy which sees the persons with zero brain activity as hollow shells, no longer the human they once knew. If we consider this beeing as possibility, that the body and soul are two different things than we have to consider that sould in other body may be as equal as the one in the organic. As you said it is science fiction, what I´m talking about, but possible science fiction.

finc.loki wrote...

Regarding speciesm, which would you save first, a dog or a human child?
Don't bring up some silly racism, that is WITHIN the human race and has nothing to do with it.

I would save a dog over a machine for example.
If a machine "dies" I just remove the memory/cpu core and build another and say welcome back when IT wakes up.
The human or the dog, will be gone forever.

This is the exact reason why I asked you what makes us different from animals. You haven´t answered so I hope that you´ll do that in your next post. And what would I do?
Human child, without the hesitation - no matter if the machine would be self-aware or had some sort of counciosness. I am human, I always was and I always will be - nothing can change the genes. As everyone would choose their nation over another, I would choose my race over another - be it machine or some friggin martians.

finc.loki wrote...

These are some interesting viewpoints I think.
Where do we draw the line?

Being a racist is bad, but being a speciest, I think is something completely different, at least not as easy to dicern right from wrong.

I would think saving your own species is NR1, except perhaps if your own species want to kill everything else.

Food for thought....

I see that people around see term racism differently. I see racism as some comleyed xenophobical view where you resent other race just because they are another. Notice the word resent, I do not see choosing your own race over another as resent but as natural choice and choice of smaller evil. And people have tendency to mix it with some neo-nacism or something. The racism which you see in Mass Effect universe is more nationalism than racism and I would rather use that term since the difference between white and black male cannot be compared to differences between human and turian, in this universe. And I think that you agree with me in this. And where do we draw the line? I say in level of self-awarness of the person. Fe I consider geth as evolved race which evolved, as humans, from lower species (neaderthals) to what they are today (****** sapiens). However saying that quarians are racists as like saying to jew in 1944 that he is racist because he do not like Germans. It is logical outcome of war and hatred which the war brings.

[Sialboats]

[quote]finc.loki wrote...

[/quote]

Are dog's people too?

Do dogs get up and put their supposed thoughts into coherent structures with meaningful and comprehenisble syntax? 

Some would argue that some animals are sentient, still I wouldn't consider them people.

Didn't think so. If they could've, they would have by now.

Ai Machines are constructs made by other organic living species, they would not exist on their own.
Sure silicon based life might exist but that is merely a difference from carbon based to sillicon based.

Just because they would not exist on their own doesn't mean they can't be thinking, feeling creatures? This makes NO sense, and seemingly does NOTHING to support your argument. But for the sake thereof I'll tear it down anyways. 

You yourself wouldn't have existed on your own without a mother and father, or evolutionary processes, God, et cetra. You think you just pop into existence? Hell no. So, does this mean you can't think?  Well, I could put a really witty insult in here... 

We're all made by some other force.  Humans are constructs made by other humans. You don't think parenting and enviromental conditions sum up to tinkering with microchips and lines of code? The first human was a construct made by evolution and progression of thought. We're no different than your AI's, bud. We're manufactured by an external force, just like any AI. Our surroundings determine our personality and intelligence. And with proper stimulation we can both think.

Ai has to be created, I personally don't think machines could ever reach sentience as living organisms have.

Shut a Pre-Cro-Magnon infant up in a room for thirty years. For a hundred years. Will it think? It has no reason to.
Keep a Windows XP computer as it is for thirty years. For a hundred years. Will it think? It has no reason to.

Neither of them learned how or why to. Both of them are the rawest form of their respective evolutionary counterparts (human and AI).  The child was never exposed to other humans, the computer was never exposed to the proxy of other humans - more advanced software. The child never felt challenged enough to rationally think, the computer never was asked to. Neither tried or failed at it. 

All these arguments for the machines are quite frankly based in FICTION, organic life is NOT.

You still assume that organic life is the limit of sapience.

Regarding speciesm, which would you save first, a dog or a human child?

Blah...

Don't bring up some silly racism, that is WITHIN the human race and has nothing to do with it.

Blah...

I would save a dog over a machine for example. If a machine "dies" I just remove the memory/cpu core and build another and say welcome back when IT wakes up. The human or the dog, will be gone forever.

So? AI is supposedly forever, humans are finite. This still does nothing  to argue that AI's can't think. It's like the silly "Artificiality = Stupidity" assertion.

[/quote]

Modifié par Sialboats, 26 janvier 2010 - 12:35 .

[finc.loki]

Sialboats wrote...

Just because they would not exist on their own doesn't mean they can't be thinking, feeling creatures? This makes NO sense, and seemingly does NOTHING to support your argument. But for the sake thereof I'll tear it down anyways.

I severely doubt a machine will ever have feelings .
It is US humans in literature and fantasy that want to imprint so kind of life into machines.
Just because we can imagine something doesn't mean "it could happen".
I have no doubt that machines and a form of Ai can be created and solve problems, hell even robotic 'servants' etc. But it will never be like other sentient life

Sialboats wrote...

You yourself wouldn't have existed on your own without a mother and father, or evolutionary processes, God, et cetra. You think you just pop into existence? Hell no. So, does this mean you can't think?  Well, I could put a really witty insult in here...

Silly argument, I of course was referring to that OUR life happened by itself through Abiogenesis, NO ONE made us (god), like we would have made the Ai/sentient machine.

Sialboats wrote...

We're all made by some other force. Humans are constructs made by other humans. You don't think parenting and enviromental conditions sum up to tinkering with microchips and lines of code? The first human was a construct made by evolution and progression of thought. We're no different than your AI's, bud. We're manufactured by an external force, just like any AI. Our surroundings determine our personality and intelligence. And with proper stimulation we can both think.

Intelligence is in the genes, developing it is in teaching and self discovery.
Our personality is determined by several factors, surrounding environment does a lot but even genetics come into play here as well.
Machines are just copies or improved copies on a conveyor belt. Sure it can be given some kind of adaptive chip for a "brain" that can learn and solve problems, but it will just do that, it won't ponder the problem and question the result the same way.
It won't feel all of a sudden or grasp empathy, it would just solve solve solve and evolve to solve more problems.

Do you really think that whilst this computer AI with adaptive programming all of a sudden faces a "problem/question" that will somehow trigger some kind of "awareness and sentience", not likely.
It will not have fear and self preservation (unless some code tells it what to do).
One AI won't exist and walk around and then develop a "love" for another AI.

Once again, this is just US humans WANTING and IMPRINTING ourselfs into the machines.
It is also some kind of fascination with technology that if we do what the Quarians did and make geth machines to serve us that we think, "hey I wouldn't want to be a slave (this is how we see it), so what if they all of a sudden become aware of that fact and want to kill us wicked evil humans".....

I, Robot
Ai
Blade Runner
Cylons (basically exactly GETH).

Etc etc.

I don't doubt that us humans in the future can create amazing Ai/machine/robots which can solve problems and even speak and seem life like.
They will however not BE alive and sentient..No more that I want to be Superman

Sialboats wrote...

Shut a Pre-Cro-Magnon infant up in a room for thirty years. For a hundred years. Will it think?It has no reason to.
Keep a Windows XP computer as it is for thirty years. For a hundred years. Will it think? It has no reason to.

Absolutely wrong, a pre cro magnon might not be smart but it is AWARE of it's surroundings, it would explore and try to figure things out.
An XP computer will FOREVER just remain , just that, it is not even aware.
Even if you give it adaptive programming and it would eventually solve the problem it would still be a lifeless machine.
It would still not feel or understand the problem it solved.
How do I know I am right with the Cro magnon example, well we are here right now, evidence enough.

Sialboats wrote...

Neither of them learned how or why to. Both of them are the rawest form of their respective evolutionary counterparts (human and AI).  The child was never exposed to other humans, the computer was never exposed to the proxy of other humans - more advanced software. The child never felt challenged enough to rationally think, the computer never was asked to. Neither tried or failed at it. 

Funny thing is that you like like this type of experiment has happened, nice to see that you have some magical insight to our ancestors no one else has.

Sialboats wrote...

You still assume that organic life is the limit of sapience.

I can not know that, but yes I do believe it.

Sialboats wrote...

So? AI is supposedly forever, humans are finite. This still does nothing  to argue that AI's can't think. It's like the silly "Artificiality = Stupidity" assertion.

That was a question about specism not sentient life.


This is a game and within that world anything goes and within that world the Geth IS sentient.
In real life, it is a different story.

Modifié par finc.loki, 26 janvier 2010 - 05:05 .

[Sorwen]

Some of this may have been said, but here is my 2 cents. Though it wasn't part of the question Ashley is/was raciest. It isn't a loveable quirk, she isn't misunderstood, etc. It Tali raciest yes/no/maybe. If you take the word by the definition then yes she is raciest. The point is does it matter or have pertinence in this issue and that is where you get into maybe. One point for maybe is can a synthetic life form be considered a race. Personally I say if it is capable of thought beyond its programming (a true AI) then yes. The next question is that if a life form is totally evil does hating it then constitute racism. I say no as long as it is that evil you hate and not the life form. If she were presented with irrefutable fact that a Geth may not be evil and BELIEVED it but continued to hate the Geth then she would be a raciest. So right now I say maybe, but I didn't see anything in her character from the first that would prove her to be raciest.

[Elfseeker]

probably(hopefully) repeating someone else with this, but important points;



Quarian race creates Geth. Geth starts asking questions, Quarians panick and try to shut them down. Geth, threatened, retaliates...and equipped to deal with the worst of working conditions and placed probably all over quarian society, they do so with devastating effect, eventually driving their makers off-world.



cue intervening time(years/decades/millenia...) during which a machine intelligence(equipped to learn) cannot help but develop beyond their origins.



Saren and ship shows up, recruits some, proceeds to convince Council space they are scourge of universe.



Geth, as I can recall Legion's 'testimony', just want to be left alone. As to whether he's one individual out of thousands/millions like him, or just a robotic Saren with a decent personality, time will tell.



That said, Tali had little problem taking down geth and sending the parts back to her father.

Question is if she would have had problem doing so if they'd been more like Legion than the individual parts of a disease set on wiping our biological life. I say yes...at least eventually. She's supposed to have a head on those shoulders, after all.

If nothing else, being the one to initiate difficulty two out of two, and probably being nearly squashed each time(theoretically)....should 'err' in most people's heads, I think, once they got to cool down a bit.



Potenially worrying for fans of 'Legion-geth'; apparently research into getting them 'back into the fold' will continue in the flotilla.

[Archereon]

You guys really have never looked up the definition of sapience have you?



Sapience is the ability to perceive subjectivity, to have a sense of self and others, and to be capable of questioning one's own nature and the nature of reality. (worshipping a higher power requires sapience, as does disbelieving in one, since the concept (correct or otherwise) of a higher power is the fruit of sapient thought.)



However there is, especially in the case of the Geth, the philosophical zombie question: "Could something behave as if it was aware and intelligent without having any awareness of its own?"

[Elfseeker]

As you will no doubt recall, that's the thing that kicked off the whole enchillada. Geth started asking questions about their existence, and the quarians, not wanting to engage in outright slavery, lashed out in a panick rather than try to alter the quarian-geth relationship to a more balanced one in light of their emergent intelligence.

Can only guess their variant of the terminator-movies were fresh in memory at the time.

[Kozlovskiy]

I don't trust black people. That's not racist because I don't trust them. They commit crimes far more than normal people. I own a gun for the reason of hunting down those monkeys in case they try to get to me. I don't trust them.

[Archereon]

Elfseeker: Pretty much. But I wonder. Do Geth have a (metaphorical) soul? Are there actually aware, or just seamless emulations of personality with no awareness whatsoever?



That brings in even more philosophy, some theology, and some science: Is it possible to link what we call self awareness to a (or several) specific physical systems? What exactly is the consciousness?



If the former question is answered "no", then that validates the philosophical zombie's possibility, that something could appear conscious, but be completely void of self awareness...A scary concept.

[Archereon]

Elfseeker: Pretty much. But I wonder. Do Geth have a (metaphorical) soul? Are there actually aware, or just seamless emulations of personality with no awareness whatsoever?



That brings in even more philosophy, some theology, and some science: Is it possible to link what we call self awareness to a (or several) specific physical systems? What exactly is the consciousness?



If the former question is answered "no", then that validates the philosophical zombie's possibility, that something could appear conscious, but be completely void of self awareness...A scary concept.

[Costin_Razvan]

The one thing I like about Tali is that she is very vocal about her beliefs and feelings, to the point she will disagree with you loudly about it. She is quite a formidable woman, BUT unlike Ashley, she DOES listen to reason ( Ashley forever hates aliens, no matter what you do, while Tali can be reasoned with eventually )

[Ahglock]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The one thing I like about Tali is that she is very vocal about her beliefs and feelings, to the point she will disagree with you loudly about it. She is quite a formidable woman, BUT unlike Ashley, she DOES listen to reason ( Ashley forever hates aliens, no matter what you do, while Tali can be reasoned with eventually )

Wow, you never really followed up with Ash.  Ash by the way didn't really HATE aliens, she just had a humans first attitude.  As you spoke with her you could bring her around to have a more we all can work together and are the same attitude.  Did you always go renegade options or something?

[Skilled Seeker]

The Geth are not a 'race'. They are just intelligent machines but can never be truly sentinent or have emotions.