289 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

steve1945 wrote...

See you sir are watching the movie. Im sorry but im going to have to ask for your brain. Read the book. The director was a total HARDCORE liberal. Who on seeing the book being about a form of government he didnt like considered it. OMG THIS IS FASCIST! and did not even read the book.


I hate hollywood. The Arachnids are the enemy. Humanity was defending itself. If you bring up the movie again im going to have to purge you.

I'm afraid I didn't read the book, either. Did the humans not have misleading, WW2-style propoganda painting the bugs as the enemy in the book? How did the fight start in the book? I'm genuinely curious.

[lokiarchetype]

steve1945 wrote...

Race is not a social construct developed from the US VS THEM mentality. Race does exist biologically. If say a underground area was discovered with a people in it. They have lived in a cave system with no light for thousands of years. These people would be a entirely different race then the human one even if they looked similiar

If you isolated a populace from the rest of humanity and subjected them to conditions that required adaptation, then yes, they could evolve and become a sub-species, or race.

However, no human population was isolated long enough for such a thing to occur.  If you walked from the equator to Finland you'd see things like skin color exist on a spectrum that has more to do with geographical location than ethnicity.  At no point could you draw a line and say "This is where the dark people end and the light people begin"

[TuringPoint]

Race is a social construct with biological basis. Our assumptions are not biological, they are mental, they are ideas. You can change ideas.

[BigKahuna25]

Schneidend wrote...

steve1945 wrote...

See you sir are watching the movie. Im sorry but im going to have to ask for your brain. Read the book. The director was a total HARDCORE liberal. Who on seeing the book being about a form of government he didnt like considered it. OMG THIS IS FASCIST! and did not even read the book.


I hate hollywood. The Arachnids are the enemy. Humanity was defending itself. If you bring up the movie again im going to have to purge you.

I'm afraid I didn't read the book, either. Did the humans not have misleading, WW2-style propoganda painting the bugs as the enemy in the book? How did the fight start in the book? I'm genuinely curious.

The movie was kinda cheesy, the book was a lot better. Y'all are killing my buzz though so i'm gonna go find a "Tali is hawt" or a "launch trailor roxorz!!!!!11oneone" thread to hang around in.

[merikano]

everybody feels some racism, it's how the world we live in works. tali has as good a reason to feel racist about the geth as anybody does.



i recall one of the conversations you have with her when you argue that the geth acted in self defense when they first became fully self aware. tali's view, i thought, was pretty racist but then again the geth hadn't declared all out war on all non-synthetics yet.



i'm reminded of a fairly recent salvatore book (the two swords? the conclusion of the hunter's blades trilogy?). anyway (spoiler alert for the story!) after a long stalemate with a highly organized orc army buenor, the dwarf king, decided it best to sign a formal treaty with the new orc kingdom that wanted to trade and coexist beside the other more "civilized" races of faerun. it was a pretty epic thing, i never saw a reconciliation like it any other fantasy story though i haven't read much outside of salvatore.



anyway, i think this quote sums up what i'm trying to say nicely (and don't worry zulu i won't be quoting anything else tonight):



"A merely fallen enemy may rise again, but the reconciled one is truly vanquished."

– Johan Christoph Schiller

[steve1945]

Schneidend wrote...

steve1945 wrote...

See you sir are watching the movie. Im sorry but im going to have to ask for your brain. Read the book. The director was a total HARDCORE liberal. Who on seeing the book being about a form of government he didnt like considered it. OMG THIS IS FASCIST! and did not even read the book.


I hate hollywood. The Arachnids are the enemy. Humanity was defending itself. If you bring up the movie again im going to have to purge you.

I'm afraid I didn't read the book, either. Did the humans not have misleading, WW2-style propoganda painting the bugs as the enemy in the book? How did the fight start in the book? I'm genuinely curious.

even in the movie the bugs are the actual enemy force. They attacked a human fleet in a uninhabited system.


In the book the Federation is attacked by the bugs expansionism. The bugs hurl their hung into space via asteriods. one hit mars. The Troopers were dispatched and wiped it out once it proved hostile. Then the book proper takes place with the all out bug war.

I dont you would enjoy the book as its form of government. Well lets just say many "soft hearted" people think that any form of government like the book is pure evil. The book itself is a allegory against the communist system. Its also about how a government should always have selective service instead of a draft. The government in the book is just like the one portrayed in the movie. Where one cannot legaly effect the outcome of the world without showing one has the ability to put the whole above him/her/self by joining into Federation service. Its not entirely military.

Id suggest you read the book anyway. its a good read and a interesting way of looking at things. So many narrow minded people from todays times just recoil in horror and scream that its "hateful" or "Imperialistic" or the worst one that they love to throw around "fascist" I doubt anyone in America would know what a Fascist was even if one bit them in the... well you know where im going with that.

[lokiarchetype]

Alocormin wrote...

Race is a social construct with biological basis. Our assumptions are not biological, they are mental, they are ideas. You can change ideas.

There is no genetic evidence to support the notion of race.

The biological basis is more a nebulous conglomeration of various phenotypic traits, that is to say, it's based on appearance not any genuine genetic variation.

The genetic variation between populations isn't as great as the genetic variation between two individuals.

[steve1945]

lokiarchetype wrote...

steve1945 wrote...

Race is not a social construct developed from the US VS THEM mentality. Race does exist biologically. If say a underground area was discovered with a people in it. They have lived in a cave system with no light for thousands of years. These people would be a entirely different race then the human one even if they looked similiar

If you isolated a populace from the rest of humanity and subjected them to conditions that required adaptation, then yes, they could evolve and become a sub-species, or race.

However, no human population was isolated long enough for such a thing to occur.  If you walked from the equator to Finland you'd see things like skin color exist on a spectrum that has more to do with geographical location than ethnicity.  At no point could you draw a line and say "This is where the dark people end and the light people begin"

I agree. I would go as far as to say that perhaps both light skinned and dark skinned peoples are both a subsects that make up the actual human race. Considering we both have minut biological differences yet are the same on a whole. Iv always considered that A race is all of its subspects taken at a whole.

Modifié par steve1945, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:13 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

The poor geth were clearly defending themselves. The only crime they committed at the time was to achieve sentience. Instead of trying a dialog with the geth, the evil quarians tried to wipe them out. Tali explains that the geth might think that they were being used as slaves and thus that would cause an uprise. Yet, the quarians didn't simply free the geth, no... The nasty quarians tried to wipe them out. Just as a precaution. Tsk.

But the good geth prevailed and they won the war. The geth didn't try to wipe the quarians out. Instead they drove the quarians into exile. There was no reason to invest more resources into the extermination of the quarians now that they were decimated. But we also see in the game that the geth used music. So maybe they did have emotions and the act of leaving the remaining quarians alive could be seen as an act of compassion.

And then our heroes disappeared. The geth isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy in the systems beyond the Perseus Veil. They were not seen in the next 200 or 300 years (the game is vague about that).

In that time they were found by the reapers which indoctrinated them with a religion to prevent mutiny, so that they could be used as slaves once again. But that's another sad story.

Yes. It is obvious that the quarians are racists. Xenomphobes I tell you! And quarians don't need our sympathy.

Anyway... I like to see how it works out when having both Tali and Legion in my team.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:15 .

[tommythetomcat]

steve1945 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

steve1945 wrote...

See you sir are watching the movie. Im sorry but im going to have to ask for your brain. Read the book. The director was a total HARDCORE liberal. Who on seeing the book being about a form of government he didnt like considered it. OMG THIS IS FASCIST! and did not even read the book.


I hate hollywood. The Arachnids are the enemy. Humanity was defending itself. If you bring up the movie again im going to have to purge you.

I'm afraid I didn't read the book, either. Did the humans not have misleading, WW2-style propoganda painting the bugs as the enemy in the book? How did the fight start in the book? I'm genuinely curious.

even in the movie the bugs are the actual enemy force. They attacked a human fleet in a uninhabited system.


In the book the Federation is attacked by the bugs expansionism. The bugs hurl their hung into space via asteriods. one hit mars. The Troopers were dispatched and wiped it out once it proved hostile. Then the book proper takes place with the all out bug war.

I dont you would enjoy the book as its form of government. Well lets just say many "soft hearted" people think that any form of government like the book is pure evil. The book itself is a allegory against the communist system. Its also about how a government should always have selective service instead of a draft. The government in the book is just like the one portrayed in the movie. Where one cannot legaly effect the outcome of the world without showing one has the ability to put the whole above him/her/self by joining into Federation service. Its not entirely military.

Id suggest you read the book anyway. its a good read and a interesting way of looking at things. So many narrow minded people from todays times just recoil in horror and scream that its "hateful" or "Imperialistic" or the worst one that they love to throw around "fascist" I doubt anyone in America would know what a Fascist was even if one bit them in the... well you know where im going with that.

You know its been a few years but you got some strange ideas about what was meant allegorically and what was more a social commentary on the whole idea of a romanticized version of the military industrial complex. 

Actually Io9 had a really good article a while back i suggest reading it because it pointed some things out I had never realized or just plain forgotten.

io9.com/5439145/starship-troopers-is-perfect--and-therein-lies-the-problem

[steve1945]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The poor geth were clearly defending themselves. The only crime they committed at the time was to achieve sentience. Instead of trying a dialog with the geth, the evil quarians tried to wipe them out. Tali explains that the geth might think that they were being used as slaves and thus that would cause an uprise. Yet, the quarians didn't simply free the geth, no... The nasty quarians tried to wipe them out. Just as a precaution. Tsk.

But the good geth prevailed and they won the war. The geth didn't try to wipe the quarians out. Instead they drove the quarians into exile. There was no reason to invest more resources into the extermination of the quarians now that they were decimated. But we also see in the game that the geth used music. So maybe they did have emotions and the act of leaving the remaining quarians alive could be seen as an act of compassion.

And then our heroes disappeared. The geth isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy in the systems beyond the Perseus Veil. They were not seen in the next 200 or 300 years (the game is vague about that).

In that time they were found by the reapers which indoctrinated them with a religion to prevent mutiny, so that they could be used as slaves once again. But that's another sad story.

Yes. It is obvious that the quarians are racists. Xenomphobes I tell you! And quarians don't need our sympathy.

Anyway... I like to see how it works out when having both Tali and Legion in my team.

What? I mean your joking correct? Sorry if you are. Hard to tell inflection of tone here on the web. You do realize that the Geth nuked the surface of the Quarians homeplanet untill it was a hunk of radioactive rock correct? The murdered millions in their attemp at genocide. How anyone could feel the slightest care for a non biological race such as the Geth is beyond my perspective of thinking.

That is of course if youre not joking

[lokiarchetype]

I agree. I would go as far as to say that perhaps both light skinned and dark skinned peoples are both a subsects that make up the actual human race. Considering we both have minut biological differences yet are the same on a whole. Iv always considered that A race is all of its subspects taken at a whole.

Since you disapprove of the word racism, would you agree with "prejudicial"?

She has a preconceived notion of what Geth are like and as such she's judging Legion by his affiliation with the Geth rather than basing her evaluation on his own individual merits.

We can agree that is, by definition, prejudiced?

[steve1945]

tommythetomcat wrote...

steve1945 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

steve1945 wrote...

See you sir are watching the movie. Im sorry but im going to have to ask for your brain. Read the book. The director was a total HARDCORE liberal. Who on seeing the book being about a form of government he didnt like considered it. OMG THIS IS FASCIST! and did not even read the book.


I hate hollywood. The Arachnids are the enemy. Humanity was defending itself. If you bring up the movie again im going to have to purge you.

I'm afraid I didn't read the book, either. Did the humans not have misleading, WW2-style propoganda painting the bugs as the enemy in the book? How did the fight start in the book? I'm genuinely curious.

even in the movie the bugs are the actual enemy force. They attacked a human fleet in a uninhabited system.


In the book the Federation is attacked by the bugs expansionism. The bugs hurl their hung into space via asteriods. one hit mars. The Troopers were dispatched and wiped it out once it proved hostile. Then the book proper takes place with the all out bug war.

I dont you would enjoy the book as its form of government. Well lets just say many "soft hearted" people think that any form of government like the book is pure evil. The book itself is a allegory against the communist system. Its also about how a government should always have selective service instead of a draft. The government in the book is just like the one portrayed in the movie. Where one cannot legaly effect the outcome of the world without showing one has the ability to put the whole above him/her/self by joining into Federation service. Its not entirely military.

Id suggest you read the book anyway. its a good read and a interesting way of looking at things. So many narrow minded people from todays times just recoil in horror and scream that its "hateful" or "Imperialistic" or the worst one that they love to throw around "fascist" I doubt anyone in America would know what a Fascist was even if one bit them in the... well you know where im going with that.

You know its been a few years but you got some strange ideas about what was meant allegorically and what was more a social commentary on the whole idea of a romanticized version of the military industrial complex. 

Actually Io9 had a really good article a while back i suggest reading it because it pointed some things out I had never realized or just plain forgotten.

io9.com/5439145/starship-troopers-is-perfect--and-therein-lies-the-problem

Thats the beauty of the book itself. No one answer to what it really is about is correct. I say its a allegory of Communism and Selective service. Some say its nothing but Fascist propoganda for a evil utopia. Some think its just a book for kids to read about fighting bugs.

No one answer on any of it can really be true since Heinlien fun guy that he was never talked about it at any length.

[God_Emperor]

The Geth are most definately a race because they are sentient. Tali clearly tells Sheaprd that the Geth began to question the meaning of their existence and the nature of how the Quarians were using them.



They might have started out as simple machines but they evolved into something greater. Think the Cylons from the new Galactica (Quarians are obviosuly the Colonials anyway).



Now when the Quarians learned that the Geth were beginning to questions their existence they feared a revolt so they attempted to shut down...see kill now that the Geth were sentient...every Geth at the same time. The Geth learned this and struck back at the Quarians and squashed them. The only base Geth had ever had for organics were the Quarians so naturally they assume every organic is exactly like them and are on the warpath against any organic encountered.



The Quarians lost their planet and billions of lives through actions of their own making. Can the two species find a way to set aside their differences and co-exist? Maybe, maybe not. But I have more sympathy for the Geth than Quarians I find their tale much more tragic because they were made into villains by the Quarians.



My two cents...

[AngryFrozenWater]

steve1945 wrote...

What? I mean your joking correct? Sorry if you are. Hard to tell inflection of tone here on the web. You do realize that the Geth nuked the surface of the Quarians homeplanet untill it was a hunk of radioactive rock correct? The murdered millions in their attemp at genocide. How anyone could feel the slightest care for a non biological race such as the Geth is beyond my perspective of thinking.

That is of course if youre not joking

What!? That's false propaganda! The naughty quarians obviously changed the story to hide their true motives.

[steve1945]

lokiarchetype wrote...

I agree. I would go as far as to say that perhaps both light skinned and dark skinned peoples are both a subsects that make up the actual human race. Considering we both have minut biological differences yet are the same on a whole. Iv always considered that A race is all of its subspects taken at a whole.

Since you disapprove of the word racism, would you agree with "prejudicial"?

She has a preconceived notion of what Geth are like and as such she's judging Legion by his affiliation with the Geth rather than basing her evaluation on his own individual merits.

We can agree that is, by definition, prejudiced?

I would agree with this since its been shown Legion has develped free thought. Though I would consider her hate towards the unthinking hive mind linked geth entirely justififed

[tommythetomcat]

steve1945 wrote...

Thats the beauty of the book itself. No one answer to what it really is about is correct. I say its a allegory of Communism and Selective service. Some say its nothing but Fascist propoganda for a evil utopia. Some think its just a book for kids to read about fighting bugs.

No one answer on any of it can really be true since Heinlien fun guy that he was never talked about it at any length.

hmm point taken I suppose.  What a clever guy, wrapping his novel in mystique like that.

[lokiarchetype]

steve1945 wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

I agree. I would go as far as to say that perhaps both light skinned and dark skinned peoples are both a subsects that make up the actual human race. Considering we both have minut biological differences yet are the same on a whole. Iv always considered that A race is all of its subspects taken at a whole.

Since you disapprove of the word racism, would you agree with "prejudicial"?

She has a preconceived notion of what Geth are like and as such she's judging Legion by his affiliation with the Geth rather than basing her evaluation on his own individual merits.

We can agree that is, by definition, prejudiced?

I would agree with this since its been shown Legion has develped free thought. Though I would consider her hate towards the unthinking hive mind linked geth entirely justififed

I believe that's another area that some difficulty is arising.

I think whether or not something if prejudicial is separate from whether or not it is correct, justified, or understandable. 
Those are value judgments that are distinct from the definition.
I imagine it has to do with the connotations associated with the word, however, I'm speaking strictly in the sense of the very definition and nothing more.

[TheDove]

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

ok before I get flamed out of here, let me say that I do not think Tali is a racist in any sense of the word. but consider this:

many people seem to enjoy condemning Ash as a racist because she is, at least initially before you "paragonize" her, mistrustful of aliens. Of course, mistrust is not the same as racism, and given her family's past Ash (at least in my opinion) has every reason to have those feelings.

Tali, when you think about it, is quite similar. She hates the geth. REALLY hates them, well beyond the simple mistrust Ash feels. Heck, she might be borderline genocidal, if my sense of her is correct, as evidenced by the fact that In the trailer we see her drawing down on what appears to be a completely unarmed Legion. (Of course, the actual situation is unknown, but the vibe is clearly that Tali had initiated that little encounter.) And obviously its not JUST her that is this way, but the entire quarian race. And since the geth are clearly at least somewhat if not entirely sentient, I consider them to be their own race as well. Now, Tali, like Ash, obviously also has ample reason for her feelings, seeing as what the geth have done to her people. 

So what's the difference between the two of them exactly? Why do so many people love Tali but dismiss Ash? Are they both bigots (which I disagree with), or do their characters go deeper than that?
 

Unlike Ash, Tali might be racist. That said, I dont exactly condemn her for her feelings towards the Geth. She had her people massacred from the Geth, and even if it wasn't all the Geths fault, I can understand why she'd resent them.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The little story I wrote, Steve1945, is easily changed to something more serious to defend Legion's background. After a war which involved two countries look at the way their history is written. They probably won't match. I hope something like that happens in ME2.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Double post.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:36 .

[steve1945]

lokiarchetype wrote...

I believe that's another area that some difficulty is arising.

I think whether or not something if prejudicial is separate from whether or not it is correct, justified, or understandable. 
Those are value judgments that are distinct from the definition.
I imagine it has to do with the connotations associated with the word, however, I'm speaking strictly in the sense of the very definition and nothing more.

I agree with this aswell. Just because you condem a "race" as one thing does not exactly mean that its incorrect. Or correct. Id say its all based on personel expierence and majority ruling. The more people who think something is true, the more truth it becomes. Im quoting someone with that yet I cannot recall who.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Tali is not racist, a paragon with a blind spot. Her intense hatred of Geth stems form her cultural heritage, following Human history and geo political conflicts that's not hard to believe. But I have a feeling the Quarians aren't telling the full story.

[AngryFrozenWater]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Tali is not racist, a paragon with a blind spot. Her intense hatred of Geth stems form her cultural heritage, following Human history and geo political conflicts that's not hard to believe. But I have a feeling the Quarians aren't telling the full story

She tells most of it. But, yes. If you are a paragon Shepard you can respond with: "But they were defending themselves". The angry part that follows has some very vague parts in it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:57 .

[fairandbalancedfan]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Tali is not racist, a paragon with a blind spot. Her intense hatred of Geth stems form her cultural heritage, following Human history and geo political conflicts that's not hard to believe. But I have a feeling the Quarians aren't telling the full story

She tells most of it. But, yes. If you are a paragon Shepard you can respond with: "But they were defending themselves". The angry part that follows has some very vague parts in it.

Yes, but she is a biased source. For an onlooker into the conflict, The Quarians made the Geth to make life easier and by adding incremental changes to their design, for all intents and purposes made them AI (or the closest a machine can get). The Quarians got nervous, and they tried to pull an Israeli six war stunt, obviously the Geth weren't going to let the Quarians shut them down. What can be interpreted as an attempted genocide backfired and they were at the recieving end of it. Of course, this is where I hope Legion comes in. Maybe it (he ? she ?) can provide a Geth perspective on the conflict, and we can draw our conclusions from that.