289 réponses à ce sujet

[SomethinNothing]

God_Emperor wrote...

The Quarians lost their planet and billions of lives through actions of their own making. Can the two species find a way to set aside their differences and co-exist? Maybe, maybe not. But I have more sympathy for the Geth than Quarians I find their tale much more tragic because they were made into villains by the Quarians.

My two cents...

I have sympathy for the Geth, but they had as much of a hand in making themselves into villains as the Quarians did. They responded to genocide with genocide, which is perhaps a fair enough choice but not one that was necessary by any means. Once they gained the upper hand they could have just as easily shown mercy to the Quarians as the Quarians could have shown to them from the beginning. Thus, both races are at fault and both are ultimately ignorant.

[AdamNW]

Considering the Geth are the sole reason the Quarians were exiled, and it's not like the Geth have shown any reason to not be hated thus far, it's easy to assume Tali is racist against them.

[Empiro]

Let's also not forget that the Geth as a whole are extremely ruthless too. They take no prisoners, and those they do capture are impaled on spikes and turned into zombies.

It's also likely that at the time, the Quarians only thought that only a few Geth turned sentient. It turns out that the Geth were cunning and devious enough to hide the fact that almost all of them had gained sentience.

Finally of course, once the Geth had killed, say, a couple of billion Quarians, and it was clear that they'd win, they could have forced the surrender of the Quarian people. They didn't and continued slaughtering without mercy.

So yeah, I can forgive Tali for hating those who killed like 99.9% of their population.

Modifié par Empiro, 22 janvier 2010 - 07:12 .

[GmanFresh]

they are robots that took her planet forcing her to live on some crappy ship wearing a grimy space suit... but her ancestors brought it upon her..she is just frustrated

[fairandbalancedfan]

I have sympathy for the Geth, but they had as much of a hand in making themselves into villains as the Quarians did. They responded to genocide with genocide, which is perhaps a fair enough choice but not one that was necessary by any means. Once they gained the upper hand they could have just as easily shown mercy to the Quarians as the Quarians could have shown to them from the beginning. Thus, both races are at fault and both are ultimately ignorant.

I would call it Human nature. Geth sought vengeance, probably and any other race would do the same. The Salarians did that with the Krogan, and the Krogans did that with the Rachni.

[SomethinNothing]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

I would call it Human nature. Geth sought vengeance, probably and any other race would do the same. The Salarians did that with the Krogan, and the Krogans did that with the Rachni.

True.

But perhaps then "Sentient Nature" would be a better term.

On one end of the sentient spectrum, compassion. On the other, contempt

[Fates end]

Empiro wrote...

Finally of course, once the Geth had killed, say, a couple of billion Quarians, and it was clear that they'd win, they could have forced the surrender of the Quarian people. They didn't and continued slaughtering without mercy.

So yeah, I can forgive Tali for hating those who killed like 99.9% of their population.

This.  I don't fault the Geth for defending themselves.  But there's a line between defending yourself long enough to try and talk it out (maybe the Qaurians would have listened, maybe not.  Who knows.)  And changing your at-one-time defensive war into an all-out attempt to obliterate another species.  They could have stopped, and they didn't. 

I'm not saying they can't change, but from what the Geth have shown so far, they're completely deserving of Tali's (bias? hate?  Strong feelings   )

[zuluthrone]

Geth sympathy is a memetic neurotoxin.

I reject the idea of artificial life or sentience. The geth are malfunctioning machines. Tali is hardened by the mechanical infestation that's plagued her people. It may be easy to to put another subject in their place and try to understand their plight, something that I'm sure their programming is counting on. But consider instead that machines can find no intrinsic joy from having moving parts or faster processors or even viewing a timeless landmark. In this regard, how can taking anything away from them be considered harming them? Destroying a servo does not bear the ethical implications of breaking an arm, and discontinuing their programming does not constitute taking a life. They do not deserve any metaphorical comparison to organics.

Besides, they clearly do not acknowledge the rights of sentience. My philosophical rantings aside, they deserve no better than how they treat their own enemies.

Finally, if they had sentience, they should understand the vast difference between themselves and a simple state machine, much like the comparison between ourselves and "slave" oxen, and not take offense for the treatment of other machines lacking their digital-frontal-lobe-reasoning analogy. I submit that all we need to know of them is that they are machines programmed to kill and make kamikaze soldiers out of the dead. Binary logic is not life. They must be annihilated.

[LucidStrike]

Tali is prejudiced, and probably a bigot. Legion and I will set her right.

zuluthrone wrote...

[SOMETHING IRRELEVANT, BECAUSE THE CONCERN IS WITH SENTIENCE, NOT ABOUT LIFE]

Nice exhibition of "rationalized" bigotry though.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:01 .

[Xanfyrst]

The geth that revolted were sentient, but they were still machines driven by pure logic. They had no emotions, unlike Legion (and possible other newer geth). For them it was logical to destroy any threat to their existence. Since the Quarians were droven off the planet and into an (eternal?) exile, the geth came to the conclusion that there was no more threat to their existence and disappeared into the Veil.



So, in my opinion, the Geth were just reacting out of logic. Legion is a rare case of an evolved Geth that has severed his link to the 'Hive' and started to feel and question his existence and place in the galaxy.



I consider Geth a race. It's even said several times in the game that the geth and the reapers are a race. Tali is a racist, but not because she's evil or by ignorance... she's a racist because that's how Quarian society has raised her. Also, the Geth aren't evil. They're almost all emotionless and stuck within the 'Hivemind'. Legion is obviously a carte blanc when we meet him, with the potential of becoming either good or bad.

[zuluthrone]

rationalized bigotry? one's survival need not be rationalized. their sentience is little more than a highly complex state machine that seeks to reorder the data of the universe.

And the conversation is about racism. How can one be racist to an invalid and destructive life? It's as good as being racist towards infectious disease.

[SrGrvsaLot]

Like any sentient life, the Geth seem to have a mix of good and evil. They retaliated against the Quarians underhanded attack with extreme prejudice, commiting profound evil in the process. On the other hand, they didn't pursue the Quarians once the war was won, and coexisted peacefully with the galaxy for 300 years. Yes, they commit atrocities against organics who enter their territory, but, ironically, this is one of the most "human" things they can do (you can bank on the fact that the Asari, to take a species at random, have done as bad or worse - those commandos of theirs aren't a recent invention). Remember, the geth invented husks, but humanity invented the choke-pear.



So, yes, they have horrors in their past, and they have fallen under the sway of a political/religious regime that seems to have genocidal ambitions, but that is hardly a failing unique to inorganic life. What they've been in no way predetermines what they might become. I'd say that their biggest problem is that their technological capacity has exceeded their social development. They have modern weapons, but a medieval view of war (again, a problem experienced by humanity in WWI and WWII). They definately need to be defeated, but wiping them all out is monstrous. (Yes, they were created by the Quarians, but I think this is an ethical issue we have so far not had to deal with - once you build something that knows enough to fear oblivion, you no longer have the right to turn it off).



So, in conclusion. Tali is a racist. Cult Deprogramming and Marshall plan for the Geth.

[SrGrvsaLot]

zuluthrone wrote...

rationalized bigotry? one's survival need not be rationalized. their sentience is little more than a highly complex state machine that seeks to reorder the data of the universe.

That = life. Life is a process, not a set of materials.

Geth are not innately destructive. They are not a grey-goo nanoswarm. Their destructiveness comes from ideology, rather than programming.

[Krilral]

Some people blame the Geth for trying to destroy the Quarians. Look at it this way:



It was them or the Quarians. The Quarians tried to kill/shut down all the Geth too you know.

[Anacronian Stryx]

In any case the Quarians living today is not the ones who created the Geth nor is it those who went to war with them, You can not blame the current generation for the faults of the past.

[Zaisha_temp]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

In any case the Quarians living today is not the ones who created the Geth nor is it those who went to war with them, You can not blame the current generation for the faults of the past.

Ah, so we'll just wait for one "generation" (ie. production series) of Geth to pass and then byegones will be byegone regarding the events in ME1? That argument works both ways you know.

Who knows, Geth might have some limitation on how long they can remain funtional and all the ones that fought the Quarians might be long dead/nonfunctional.

On that note, do we know whether the Geth can theoretically live forever given proper maintenance? I know the Reapers are pretty much eternal, but they are several orders of magnitude more advanced than the Geth. Galactic Civilisations 2's evil kill-bot civilisation, the Yor, can only remain sentient for a limited time each before returning to being a simple machine, for instance. (Though the Yor have specific backround reasons for that, as well as their murderous attitude.)

[Traumacrazy]

ash is racist...i didn't pick up on that :/

[Nozybidaj]

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

Tali, when you think about it, is quite similar. She hates the geth. REALLY hates them, well beyond the simple mistrust Ash feels. 
 

Couple of differences.  1)  Geth are robots, they aren't even really alive.  Can someone even be racisist against a toaster?  2)  Quarians have good reason (genocide and having their planet taken over) to hate the Geth. 

[SrGrvsaLot]

Nozybidaj wrote...
Couple of differences.  1)  Geth are robots, they aren't even really alive.  Can someone even be racisist against a toaster?  2)  Quarians have good reason (genocide and having their planet taken over) to hate the Geth. 

The geth are in fact alive. There is no rigorous, useful definition of life that would include an ant, but exclude the geth.

[Tasuru]

Ettecoud wrote...

I'd like to add something important to this conversation

Shepard: BECAUSE ITS A BIG STUPID JELLY FISH.

that is all

Neither of them is racist. Ash is suspicious, and wasn't given much reason to trust many aliens throughout the course of the game. Tali's entire species is forced to live on the flotila by AI that would just as easily want to destroy them.

In other words people are judging the characters through different eyes and will have a different view, but it's pretty clear to me that neither of them should be condomed.

[AngryFrozenWater]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Tali is not racist, a paragon with a blind spot. Her intense hatred of Geth stems form her cultural heritage, following Human history and geo political conflicts that's not hard to believe. But I have a feeling the Quarians aren't telling the full story

She tells most of it. But, yes. If you are a paragon Shepard you can respond with: "But they were defending themselves". The angry part that follows has some very vague parts in it.

Yes, but she is a biased source. For an onlooker into the conflict, The Quarians made the Geth to make life easier and by adding incremental changes to their design, for all intents and purposes made them AI (or the closest a machine can get). The Quarians got nervous, and they tried to pull an Israeli six war stunt, obviously the Geth weren't going to let the Quarians shut them down. What can be interpreted as an attempted genocide backfired and they were at the recieving end of it. Of course, this is where I hope Legion comes in. Maybe it (he ? she ?) can provide a Geth perspective on the conflict, and we can draw our conclusions from that.

I agree. Looking forward to such a twist. I made a post in this thread from a possible viewpoint of the geth. It may not be completely correct, but the quarian viewpoint is probably not completely correct either.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:11 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Empiro wrote...

Let's also not forget that the Geth as a whole are extremely ruthless too. They take no prisoners, and those they do capture are impaled on spikes and turned into zombies.

It's also likely that at the time, the Quarians only thought that only a few Geth turned sentient. It turns out that the Geth were cunning and devious enough to hide the fact that almost all of them had gained sentience.

Finally of course, once the Geth had killed, say, a couple of billion Quarians, and it was clear that they'd win, they could have forced the surrender of the Quarian people. They didn't and continued slaughtering without mercy.

So yeah, I can forgive Tali for hating those who killed like 99.9% of their population.

The geth may be ruthless, but we only know the story from the viewpoint of the quarians. Did the quarians tell the whole truth?

There is a 200 to 300 year period of peace after that. The geth didn't attack anyone in that period. It is a mystery what happened in that time. All we know is that during that time they got their religion and that the reapers started using the geth for their own purposes. Did the reapers forced the religion upon them? Like a kind of indoctrination? Did the geth stopped attacking because they didn't see a purpose to attack organic species? Were they building "a force of extra-ordinary magnitude" (like Dr. Klahn in "A Fistful of Yen") to attack organic species at a later date. I really wonder what happened during that time.

Some other questions... Is it possible that collonies of the reapers are also disappearing? Much like what happens to the other races? Could that be the reason why the geth are willing to work with Shepard? Is it possible that some of the geth saw the treachery of the reapers and are now willing to fight the reapers who still worship the reapers?

Simply put... I don't believe that all geth are evil.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:37 .

[JohnPazur]

You know what, the Geth are not evil. They just misunderstood. So what if they hate biologicals, and so what if they have kill people for just being Biologicals. Well its that Tree hugging hippy crap that some will use for the reapers one day. Reapers aren't evil,....Just misunderstood Genocidal machines..

Also the 300 years afterwards of peace.....???? Was there a peace tready ? Nope...guess what we call that a cease in hostilities, but your still at war. Also the fact that they killed anyone entering their little piece of the galaxy...Wouldn't call that peace either.

Modifié par JohnPazur, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:42 .

[DoctorPringles]

Machines are machines. Sentience does not equal life.



2cents

[Funkcase]

Fates end wrote...

Well, last I checked. The Geth nearly wiped out the entirety of the Quarian species and exiled what was left...frankly, it'd be odd if she didn't hate them.

Last i checked it was the Quarians own fault, the Geth would defend themselves when getting attacked for the fact they are living. So the Geth got afraid organics will all try and kill them and hid behind the Perseus Veil away from them and developed hate after what the Quarians done.