289 réponses à ce sujet

[DonDaMon]

Funkcase wrote...

Fates end wrote...

Well, last I checked. The Geth nearly wiped out the entirety of the Quarian species and exiled what was left...frankly, it'd be odd if she didn't hate them.

Last i checked it was the Quarians own fault, the Geth would defend themselves when getting attacked for the fact they are living. So the Geth got afraid organics will all try and kill them and hid behind the Perseus Veil away from them and developed hate after what the Quarians done.

this^^^

[AngryFrozenWater]

JohnPazur wrote...

You know what, the Geth are not evil. They just misunderstood. So what if they hate biologicals, and so what if they have kill people for just being Biologicals. Well its that Tree hugging hippy crap that some will use for the reapers one day. Reapers aren't evil,....Just misunderstood Genocidal machines..

Also the 300 years afterwards of peace.....???? Was there a peace tready ? Nope...guess what we call that a cease in hostilities, but your still at war. Also the fact that they killed anyone entering their little piece of the galaxy...Wouldn't call that peace either.

They didn't attack anyone for 200 to 300 years. That doesn't sound like a war to me. Those who entered the Veil were attacked by the geth or did the geth defend their territory? Are you sure it was the geth?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:53 .

[Funkcase]

Lord Atlia wrote...

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

ok before I get flamed out of here, let me say that I do not think Tali is a racist in any sense of the word. but consider this:

many people seem to enjoy condemning Ash as a racist because she is, at least initially before you "paragonize" her, mistrustful of aliens. Of course, mistrust is not the same as racism, and given her family's past Ash (at least in my opinion) has every reason to have those feelings.

Tali, when you think about it, is quite similar. She hates the geth. REALLY hates them, well beyond the simple mistrust Ash feels. Heck, she might be borderline genocidal, if my sense of her is correct, as evidenced by the fact that In the trailer we see her drawing down on what appears to be a completely unarmed Legion. (Of course, the actual situation is unknown, but the vibe is clearly that Tali had initiated that little encounter.) And obviously its not JUST her that is this way, but the entire quarian race. And since the geth are clearly at least somewhat if not entirely sentient, I consider them to be their own race as well. Now, Tali, like Ash, obviously also has ample reason for her feelings, seeing as what the geth have done to her people. 

So what's the difference between the two of them exactly? Why do so many people love Tali but dismiss Ash? Are they both bigots (which I disagree with), or do their characters go deeper than that?
 

The geth are not a race, they are technically Quarian property.  Would you not be enraged if your cell phone grew lasers and kicked you out of your house.

:Opens up the galactic codex: Aliens: Non-councel races: Bartarians, Elchor Hanar, Krogan, Quarians, Volus, and GETH!

There they are a race, they are a humanoid race of network AIs. Just becuase the Quarians made them dosent mean they are property, if so YOU are property of your parents.

Modifié par Funkcase, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:58 .

[Knoll Argonar]

Hey, just a note:



You did in fact kill hundreds of Geth with your Shepard.



I think it depends on who are you looking at: for Tali, watching Saren's Geth in action was like a confirmation of her culture beliefs. That's not being racist, is just being ignorant, in a tricky way, because what you learn from your quests with shepards it's like a confirmation of your ignorance.



Legion will probably play an interesting role for her. But not only for her, but for YOUR SHEPARD as well. At least my shepard won't trust him that easily: "oh, he speaks, c0ol".



The way she reacts may be a little extremist (but, well, i haven't played the game yet, so I don't know what was going on in the Launch Trailer scene) but it's just natural if you were taught wrong since you were born.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Geth are more efficient when they work in groups, but they can work on their own as well.

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
Ashley was very vicious with Liara.

Much less to do with race and more to do with romantic competition, IMO. 

[sirisaacx]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Geth are more efficient when they work in groups, but they can work on their own as well.

But they are not senient on their own.

[Knoll Argonar]

Legion seems to be more than a simple part of a sentient group. He alone is intelligent.

[TheMightyOm]

It surprised even me that most players haven't considered the Geth their own race with rights. The Quarians create the Geth then attempt to destroy them, it could be said that driving the Quarians away was the Geth preserving their own race.

A very Next Generation approach to the game.

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

my personal opinon is that EVERYONE is racist to a some extent. It is a normal part of preservation to be supicious of those that are different and unknown to you and those close to you. Being intelligent enough to realize when a specific suspicion or feeling is not logical or unjustly catagorizes another individual is the difference between being racist and a bigot. Much bigotry is just ignorance and a lack of intellgience. So is the vast majority of pointing at someone and yelling "racist!!!".

[Lucazius]

So... the Geth kill billions upon billions of Quarians and the last few surviving Quarians are condened to al life of exile aboard old starships, where they barely have any space to rest... And you expect Tali to be all nice and gentle with the Geth?





I also think the Quarians brough their doom upon themselves, but, other species in Citadel space tried to contact with the Geth, and they never answered.

[Zurcior]

Whatever the reason, I'm gonna avoid Legion as much as possible until I get my charm or intimidate way up. I don't want Tali to kill Legion, and I sure as hell don't want to be forced to kill Tali. To hell with THAT option.

[Knoll Argonar]

Zurcior wrote...

Whatever the reason, I'm gonna avoid Legion as much as possible until I get my charm or intimidate way up. I don't want Tali to kill Legion, and I sure as hell don't want to be forced to kill Tali. To hell with THAT option.

True. Legion almost last character/mission to be sure that you'll do it right.=P

[lokiarchetype]

Lucazius wrote...

So... the Geth kill billions upon billions of Quarians and the last few surviving Quarians are condened to al life of exile aboard old starships, where they barely have any space to rest... And you expect Tali to be all nice and gentle with the Geth?


I also think the Quarians brough their doom upon themselves, but, other species in Citadel space tried to contact with the Geth, and they never answered.

Quarians attacked the Geth first. 
By your own logic, "the Organics tried to commit genocide and wipe out all the Geth, you expect Geth not to be hostile towards organics?"

I expect Tali to recognize that Geth have justified grievances against the Quarians and that the Geth that you fight in ME1 aren't representative of all Geth.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:33 .

[Aradace]

shinobi602 wrote...

Anybody who says Ashley is a "racist" clearly has not delved deep into her character. Bunch of BS. On the same token, I don't believe Tali is a "racist" either.

my words precisely

[MajesticJazz]

chenDawg wrote...

You seem to be forgetting the fact that the Geth tried to wipe out her entire race (not to mention every other organic life form after they ran into Mr Reaper)

You seem to be forgetting the fact that Quarians created the Geth to be used as Slave Labor and when the Geth started to question their existence, the Quarians tried to shut them all down. In defense, the Geth rebelled.

[steve1945]

I still dont consider the Geth a race and I consider their supposed "genocide" as something to look favourably on.



Where the Quarians failed Ill finish the job just like I did with the Racni. Even if the Geth turn out to have free thought and actively stop waging war on organic, and from what I understand they approach that like a holy war, I will continue to fight them. They are machines. Machines given life. Its a mockery of the natural order of things.



They need to be extirminated. Could I be wrong about the Geth? Certainly. Would it change my decision to condem their whole race to the fire? Not at all. I choose too hate them because I choose to. I dont need a reason.

[lokiarchetype]

steve1945 wrote...
They are machines. Machines given life. Its a mockery of the natural order of things.

If Geth are a mockery of the natural order of things

Then it follows that Quarians mocked the natural order of things.  Does that not make them just as guilty?  Shouldn't you exterminate them as well?

[steve1945]

Perhaps in time. Though outright extermination may not be needed. They lost a good portion of their race and are pretty much blacklisted from the Universe at large. They may have learned their lesson

[Homebound]

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

ok before I get flamed out of here, let me say that I do not think Tali is a racist in any sense of the word. but consider this:

many people seem to enjoy condemning Ash as a racist because she is, at least initially before you "paragonize" her, mistrustful of aliens. Of course, mistrust is not the same as racism, and given her family's past Ash (at least in my opinion) has every reason to have those feelings.

Tali, when you think about it, is quite similar. She hates the geth. REALLY hates them, well beyond the simple mistrust Ash feels. Heck, she might be borderline genocidal, if my sense of her is correct, as evidenced by the fact that In the trailer we see her drawing down on what appears to be a completely unarmed Legion. (Of course, the actual situation is unknown, but the vibe is clearly that Tali had initiated that little encounter.) And obviously its not JUST her that is this way, but the entire quarian race. And since the geth are clearly at least somewhat if not entirely sentient, I consider them to be their own race as well. Now, Tali, like Ash, obviously also has ample reason for her feelings, seeing as what the geth have done to her people. 

So what's the difference between the two of them exactly? Why do so many people love Tali but dismiss Ash? Are they both bigots (which I disagree with), or do their characters go deeper than that?
 

For me personally, Ashley had her own reservations that I thought were counter-productive.  Tali on the otherhand, had her race forced to become space nomads.  I knew the concept of the Geth and racism would pop up in the next game, but I dont think that cant be fixed with a little bit of understanding. I guess i'll be "paragonizing" Tali too.

So why am I a Tali fan?  What is the difference between Tali and Ash?  Well I think Ashley said it best when she said that she was a "Hell-cat".  Tali on the otherhand, seems rather sweet. 

[Malastare-]

Schneidend wrote...

Tali could only be considered racist if you consider the geth a "species," or even "people." They aren't. That'd be like calling somebody who dislikes waffle irons racist.

And that is actually more racist than anything Tali ever says.  The Geth are a group of sentient individuals.  I rather suspect ME2 to approach this topic and show that the Geth aren't just "appliances".

Now, as for Tali's dislike of them, I can't really support calling it racist or bigoted.  The important connotation for those terms is that the behavior toward them is unfair and based on opinions and emotions instead of fact.  I don't remember Tali ever really discussion her feelings about the Geth, only her desire to stop them and to find a way to re-take the Quarian homeworld. 

Is it racism or bigotry if Tali assumes that a Geth --even an unarmed one-- is a threat?  No, that's called "prudence".  Every other Geth she or any Quarian has encountered since the revolt has had only murderous intent against them.  Nothing else matters. 

To put this another way: The Quarians and the Geth have effectively been at war since the revolt.  During World War II, if a British soldier walked into a room and found a German soldier standing there (or vice versa, no offense Germans), their first action has to be to protect themselves.  They may or may not have prejudiced thoughts.   It really doesn't matter.  They are a declared enemy and you can't assume they are going to take the time to get to know you and decide whether you as an individual really warrant the term "enemy".

[Malastare-]

Schneidend wrote...
Humans, for example, can't be proven to have been "created" by anything or anyone. Therefore, we don't have a pre-defined purpose. We don't need one, either. We're not tools.

If you believe that to be universally true, then you haven't spent enough time on XBox Live.

[Malastare-]

steve1945 wrote...

Well sir your college lied to you. Race is a very real thing.

No.  You're uninformed.  There is no technical definition of race.  It has always been used as an Us vs. Them grouping, and it works on whatever level you choose to use it at.

steve1945 wrote...

Race is not a social construct developed from the US VS THEM mentality. Race does exist biologically. If say a underground area was discovered with a people in it. They have lived in a cave system with no light for thousands of years. These people would be a entirely different race then the human one even if they looked similiar

False.  The Falacy of Race is that despite what your naive understanding of genetics suggests, the differences between two groups of individuals --even those geographically separated-- are not greater than the differences within the group itself.  For example: the genetic differences between a caucasian from London and a caucasian from Liverpool are similar to the differences between that caucasian Londoner and a man from Kenya.

The falacy, applied on a more general scale, is that we ascribe more value to physical features and origin than is truly warranted.  You say the Geth aren't a race because they don't fit your definition.  Well, the Geth might say the same about you.  Bigotry occurs when you claim that your view is right because it belongs to you.

[steve1945]

Malastare- wrote...

steve1945 wrote...

Well sir your college lied to you. Race is a very real thing.

No.  You're uninformed.  There is no technical definition of race.  It has always been used as an Us vs. Them grouping, and it works on whatever level you choose to use it at.

steve1945 wrote...

Race is not a social construct developed from the US VS THEM mentality. Race does exist biologically. If say a underground area was discovered with a people in it. They have lived in a cave system with no light for thousands of years. These people would be a entirely different race then the human one even if they looked similiar

False.  The Falacy of Race is that despite what your naive understanding of genetics suggests, the differences between two groups of individuals --even those geographically separated-- are not greater than the differences within the group itself.  For example: the genetic differences between a caucasian from London and a caucasian from Liverpool are similar to the differences between that caucasian Londoner and a man from Kenya.

The falacy, applied on a more general scale, is that we ascribe more value to physical features and origin than is truly warranted.  You say the Geth aren't a race because they don't fit your definition.  Well, the Geth might say the same about you.  Bigotry occurs when you claim that your view is right because it belongs to you.

Well Im a bigot then and proud to be one if thats the case. I am right in this regard because I am. I choose to be. I have the power to back it up. Dont like it? Ill take this Spectre gear pistol and put a hole in your head.


But back to real life. I disagree and I believe your supposed facts are lies that are generated from todays PC society. Thats all I will say on this subject

Modifié par steve1945, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:22 .

[Malastare-]

steve1945 wrote... (roleplaying, I seriously hope)

Well Im a bigot then and proud to be one if thats the case. I am right in this regard because I am. I choose to be. I have the power to back it up. Dont like it? Ill take this Spectre gear pistol and put a hole in your head.

Sadly, far too many people in the real world have the exact same mentality, and I find nothing more repulsive.

steve1945 wrote...
But back to real life. I disagree and I believe your supposed facts are lies that are generated from todays PC society. Thats all I will say on this subject

Right.  Don't listen to geneticists and biologists.  They only care about facts and reality.  Real Men™ don't care about things like that.  They believe what their gut tells them because their gut doesn't waste time trying to figure things out or consider more than one point of view.