289 réponses à ce sujet

[Malastare-]

DoctorPringles wrote...

Machines are machines. Sentience does not equal life.

What is life?  Why is it life when electric charge travels through a sack of protein and not-life when electric charge travels through a wire?  Are dogs alive?  What about ants?  How about bacteria?

[steve1945]

Malastare- wrote...


Right.  Don't listen to geneticists and biologists.  They only care about facts and reality.  Real Men™ don't care about things like that.  They believe what their gut tells them because their gut doesn't waste time trying to figure things out or consider more than one point of view.

Thats cute. I do not consider myself a "real man" or anything like that. I completely acknowledge that there are other points of view. That they may infact be correct. That they may make my opinion incorrect to the extreme.

But you have to understand. While I acknowledge that I dont care. My opinion is my own, I choose to believe what I choose to believe. If more people would understand that there would be less conflict in the world.

It doesnt matter. Believe what you want. Im wrong you're right. Its your decision to do so. If you declare me ignorent then I am clearly ignorent.


EDIT

Let me branch on this. I am human. So are you. I believe in human supremecy even if I am shown proof that we are not supreme. That we are not special at anyway at all. I dont care. I am human I believe we are better because I am human and I choose to believe that.

Let me just phrase it to you this way. Im a warhammer 40k Imperium of Man fan.

Modifié par steve1945, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:54 .

[Malastare-]

steve1945 wrote...

But you have to understand. While I acknowledge that I dont care. My opinion is my own, I choose to believe what I choose to believe. If more people would understand that there would be less conflict in the world.

Science doesn't care about your "opinions".   It doesn't matter if DNA doesn't exist in your opinion.  It does.  It doesn't matter if 2 is greater than 4 in your opinion.  It isn't.  Many people view the ability to hold on to your beliefs even in the face of overwelming evidence is a strength.  History has shown this to be one of the more destructive human traits and the source of many of the world's greatest crimes against itself.

steve1945 wrote...

Let me branch on this. I am human. So are you. I believe in human supremecy even if I am shown proof that we are not supreme. That we are not special at anyway at all. I dont care. I am human I believe we are better because I am human and I choose to believe that.

And (bringing us back on topic) this specific view is a perfect example of the sort of "racism" that people hated Ashley and the Terra Firma people for.  Now, at least with Ashley, there was an argument that she didn't actually think that way.  For the Terra Firma people, their supremecist bigotry is pretty public.

While I know that some people take pride in holding beliefs like this, thinking they are "patriotic" or "uplifting", the reason they cause problems is due to the fact that the people who think this way rarely take the time to examine their message from the other side.  Saying "I'm supreme" is no different than telling someone not in the group: "You are not worth as much as I am".  This is an inherently aggressive stance to take, and if you manage to put two groups together who both share this belief, you have the makings of a horribly bloody war.  And the worst part is that it could have been avoided if either party had simply taken a moment to think.

This is why "racism" is a serious issue in a universe like ME.  A supremecist attitude encourages violence and makes it harder for all the sane people to get along.  This shouldn't be shocking.  The exact same pattern happens here in the real world.

Modifié par Malastare-, 22 janvier 2010 - 07:58 .

[KarumaK]

The Geth aren't alive because they aren't biological. Nor would I call them a race as they are a bit of a hive mind. Why I'd go so far as to state that the Quarians were not commiting genocide but homicide when they tried to deactivate all Geth.



But all is irrelevant the Quarians were well within their rights to go for the scrap pile, the Geth were in theirs to rebel.

[Malastare-]

KarumaK wrote...

The Geth aren't alive because they aren't biological.

That's totally arbitrary.  Why is metal less alive than oily sacks full of protein?  Your nervous system runs off electrical charge.  How are nerves different from wires?

[Jake the snake 34]

Well, if someone came and kicked you out of your house wouldnt you hate them?

[Andaius20]

A piece of copper isn't alive but a chunk of nerve cell is?

[tr00per117]

I hope the Tali Fanboys dont start some flame war here because they insulted there next **** buddy.

But hell aint the geth programmed to be ****s to everyone and kill them? or are they each an AI so they think for themself somehow. But either way doesnt deny the fact they were shooting me half the time so I dont think arguing with it is going to be of any use.

But I think making a robot to think for its self is just immpossible.

And er Ashley is a little racist but hell so are the turians and asri and every god damn alien race out there so whats new? But wouldnt tali hate the geth for ruining there homes and being cast out of the council and be killed by the geth? That would ****** me off, sure they made erm but it was for good or something.

Modifié par tr00per117, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:05 .

[Andaius20]

Not until we get much much better computers and processors. I think computers like say the Star trek enterprise's computer isn't so far off in the future. I think that's the next big thing they're working on now is all the voice recognition and pattern recognition type stuff.

[jakl201]

Of course she's a racist! She wears an environment suit so that everyone else doesn't 'contaminate' her. She'll 'die' if any other species gets near her. Racist.

[coppercondor]

i let ashley dies because she was a **** lol man killing her felt so good

[Krilral]

Lucazius wrote...


I also think the Quarians brough their doom upon themselves, but, other species in Citadel space tried to contact with the Geth, and they never answered.

I think the Geth never answered because they are afraid the organics will try to destroy them. That was after all their first experience with organics.

[Malastare-]

tr00per117 wrote...

But I think making a robot to think for its self is just immpossible.

What about making a tangle of protein strands think for itself?  That's totally possible, is it?

[Krilral]

Malastare- wrote...

KarumaK wrote...

The Geth aren't alive because they aren't biological.

That's totally arbitrary.  Why is metal less alive than oily sacks full of protein?  Your nervous system runs off electrical charge.  How are nerves different from wires?

I agree. The difference is mostly just in the materials(flesh or metal).

[psychodude310]

Racism would be hating a whole people for what a few did but the geth were responsible for dooming the quarians to a horrible life and because of they think as one it is perfectly feasible to hate all of them. And I know the quarians started it but thats just how hate goes. Her feelings are perfectly understandable.

[AtreiyaN7]

The Geth kind of tried to kill all the Quarians, so I don't think her position is in any way racist. To be "racist" would imply an unreasoning, unfounded hatred towards a non-hostile group. The Geth are hostile...very hostile...towards every organic life-form around. Legion may be an exception, but we won't exactly know until playing.

[RedIntifada]

Firstly I am not sure what people mean by "she's not Racist she is just ignorant," as though racism (in most instances) is some logical well thought out thing. Secondly we have no evidence that all Geth are following Sovereign. The Geth bases you destroy on a side mission don't appear to be connected to Saren's forces which imply there is at least 2 and hence possibly more factions.



Also we need to remember that Tali does talk about wiping them out and how no diplomatic option was considered by the Quarian. In terms of ME 1 quests this does make me apprehensive about giving Tali the information on the Geth acquired from the attacks on their military particularly when you say to her (and I paraphrase) "so are you going to use this information to wipe them out" and she says "yes." Part of me wants to help her on her pilgrimage and the migrant fleet is hurting but I don't want to be responsible for Geth genocide.

[finc.loki]

SPECIES, NOT RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A race is something WITHIN a species.

Like Humans are a species and within the human species are different races, such as white, black , asian etc.

Geth is not a species or a race, they are machines.
Let me know next time if you could be considered "racist" against a Mac or a PC?

In the term about " hating other aliens" you'd say Xenophobe, instead of racist.

Modifié par finc.loki, 23 janvier 2010 - 12:08 .

[Forwen]

Jake the snake 34 wrote...

Well, if someone came and kicked you out of your house wouldnt you hate them?

If someone made you just to use you for menial labour, and then attempted to kill you the second they discovered you're having independent thoughts, wouldn't you fight back?

Not trying to sort out the moral side here, but it was the quarians that messed up by building the geth and then not shutting them down fast enough.

In the future to come, my money's on the geth.

[Inverness Moon]

finc.loki wrote...

SPECIES, NOT RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A race is something WITHIN a species.

Like Humans are a species and within the human species are different races, such as white, black , asian etc.

Geth is not a species or a race, they are machines.
Let me know next time if you could be considered "racist" against a Mac or a PC?

In the term about " hating other aliens" you'd say Xenophobe, instead of racist.

I'm sure in the Mass Effect universe the definition of species and/or race has been updated to be applicable to synthetic lifeforms like the geth. The codex entry on geth uses "race" where I believe "species" would be more applicable.

Anyhow, imho, people who say the geth aren't alive or something similar because they are synthetic just leads me to believe they are just ignorant, or want to believe biological life is somehow special or something.

[finc.loki]

Inverness Moon wrote...

finc.loki wrote...

SPECIES, NOT RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A race is something WITHIN a species.

Like Humans are a species and within the human species are different races, such as white, black , asian etc.

Geth is not a species or a race, they are machines.
Let me know next time if you could be considered "racist" against a Mac or a PC?

In the term about " hating other aliens" you'd say Xenophobe, instead of racist.

I'm sure in the Mass Effect universe the definition of species and/or race has been updated to be applicable to synthetic lifeforms like the geth. The codex entry on geth uses "race" where I believe "species" would be more applicable.

Anyhow, imho, people who say the geth aren't alive or something similar because they are synthetic just leads me to believe they are just ignorant, or want to believe biological life is somehow special or something.

Imho!

People that think machines have "life" just because movies and games make them out to that way, probably also think puppets are for real and not really just have a human hand up their butt.

What's next, are you going to tell me they have mushy feelings too?

This is just humans wanting to imprint  a soul/life on inanimate objects....

I am a "racist" cause I hate Mac computers, there I said it, hope I didn't hurt the Mac feelings, or the brother ipod or iphone chase me down and kill me.

Modifié par finc.loki, 23 janvier 2010 - 02:23 .

[Empiro]

I still don't really understand how anyone could say that the Geth were just defending themselves. At first that might have been true, but at some point it just turned into ruthless genocide.

Think about it this way: there were probably billions of Quarians. What percentage of them do you think were actually in the military or had combat training? 1 out of 100? That's still way too high if anything. Then you think about the war itself. In any war, the combatants tend to get killed off first.

Once the Quarian military was defeated, the Geth could have easily demanded the Quarian surrender, or they could have demanded the Quarians build them ships so that they can leave the planet. But no, instead they decided to keep killing off the Quarian people until only 1 out of 1000 of them were left alive and managed to flee. These were just civilians that almost certainly had absolutely nothing to do with the original order to shut down the Geth.

Defending yourself against someone who's trying to kill you is one thing, but once you've subdued your attacker, going off to kill his friends, family, and co-workers is something else altogether.

Don't forget that when the Geth do finally attack, they don't exactly abide by whatever war conventions the ME universe has either. On Eden Prime, you see them take unarmed civilians, impale them on spikes, and turn them into zombies. I hope everyone sees that as quite different than Sheperd fighting and killing willing, armed, and hostile Geth combatants.

There's nothing wrong with hating the Geth. They show absolutely no respect for biological life.

Modifié par Empiro, 23 janvier 2010 - 02:47 .

[Malastare-]

finc.loki wrote...

People that think machines have "life" just because movies and games make them out to that way, probably also think puppets are for real and not really just have a human hand up their butt.

People who think that sentience in any form but their own is impossible just because they don't understand physics and biology, probably also think that the Sun revolves around the Earth, along with the rest of the universe.

[finc.loki]

Malastare- wrote...

finc.loki wrote...

People that think machines have "life" just because movies and games make them out to that way, probably also think puppets are for real and not really just have a human hand up their butt.

People who think that sentience in any form but their own is impossible just because they don't understand physics and biology, probably also think that the Sun revolves around the Earth, along with the rest of the universe.

So tell me how would you through biology and physics make a machine sentient and 'feeling'?

You think a machince can evolve sentience beyond their programming, and spontaneously evolve?

Do you think you can program sentience, understanding of death, love, pain into a machince?
Or is it rather confined to the programming given to it and it could at most mimic sentience, but only as far as the programming can answer and understand.

Sure we can go about our lifes thinking anything is possible, we already have lots of those people here on earth.
If they can believe in a god I'm sure anything else is possible too.


Sorry but Wall-e isn't real, neither is DATA or the Geth.

We can imagine lots of things us humans, question is, are they all possible and true?

Whilst you ponder that question, I think I will go and talk to my pet dragon I keep in my basement.

[Bootsykk]

Well, I... Uh...



The Geth haven't exactly shown any redeeming qualities since, you know, they tried to destroy all organic life.



Sure, the Quarians started it, but so far all that the Geth have shown themselves to be are mindless slaughtering beings. I'd say that's a little bit of a far stretch to say Tali is wrong for hating the things so relentlessly attempting to wipe out her people.