123 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenholmeCP42]

lokiarchetype wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Before that though, we hadn't really contributed ANYTHING to the galaxy. Except being a royal pain in the fundament. Before that, the contribution we had made was nothing that any of the other races (Volus, anyone?) hadn't already made. So yeah, we came in expecting unfair and unequal treatment. Typical human arrogance. And to be fair, you could say that humanity only suceeded because we had a man on the inside, and the Asari/Turian garrison gave their lives to take down a fair portion of the geth ships.

I think the First Contact War definitely sets the stage for how humans act upon entering to galactic community.

I mean their introduction to the "Space UN" was having it's police force attack them for violating laws they weren't aware of that we put in place by communities they didn't even know existed.

Would you really want to join that Space UN and be a 'lesser species' to the species that just attacked you without provocation?

One that you successfully defended yourself against? 
And now they want you to bow down to them and be at their mercy in diplomatic relations?

I think it's fair to want to be on equal footing with the Turian given that context.  

Considering the UN does the same thing to non-UN states, you're pretty much trying to justify it by saying that the Aliens acted like humans.

[Generic User]

Batarians and Collectors.

Kill off all the hideous ones!

[Schneidend]

LucidStrike wrote...
Because the Council has never screwed anyone over. <_<

Well, not in this instance. It's clearly a case of the batarians demanding ownership of something they didn't have the resources to populate. Colonization is only beneficial when you actually colonize things. The Council obviously saw that the batarians weren't ready to develop the entire Verge.

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Before that though, we hadn't
really contributed ANYTHING to the galaxy. Except being a royal pain in
the fundament. Before that, the contribution we had made was nothing
that any of the other races (Volus, anyone?) hadn't already made. So
yeah, we came in expecting unfair and unequal treatment.

Well, the Council did offer us incentives and encouragement to colonize the Skylian Verge,
and we did so with gusto. Granted, not huge, but it's something. It is
also suggested that human thinking is "outside the box" in comparison
to the other species, and our presence has caused a significant boom in
Citadel space's technology and industry, though specifics are never
given besides that we're the only species with fighters.

Modifié par Schneidend, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:32 .

[lokiarchetype]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Before that though, we hadn't really contributed ANYTHING to the galaxy. Except being a royal pain in the fundament. Before that, the contribution we had made was nothing that any of the other races (Volus, anyone?) hadn't already made. So yeah, we came in expecting unfair and unequal treatment. Typical human arrogance. And to be fair, you could say that humanity only suceeded because we had a man on the inside, and the Asari/Turian garrison gave their lives to take down a fair portion of the geth ships.

I think the First Contact War definitely sets the stage for how humans act upon entering to galactic community.

I mean their introduction to the "Space UN" was having it's police force attack them for violating laws they weren't aware of that we put in place by communities they didn't even know existed.

Would you really want to join that Space UN and be a 'lesser species' to the species that just attacked you without provocation?

One that you successfully defended yourself against? 
And now they want you to bow down to them and be at their mercy in diplomatic relations?

I think it's fair to want to be on equal footing with the Turian given that context.  

Considering the UN does the same thing to non-UN states, you're pretty much trying to justify it by saying that the Aliens acted like humans.

No, I'm justifying it by saying that it'd be oppressive and demeaning to enter the galactic community under the yolk of a race that attacked you, especially if you competently fended them off.

It's like being a small nation and defeating an empire to prevent it from swallowing you... only to have to join for diplomatic reasons... and then they want you to sit at the kiddy table.

It seems perfectly reasonable for humans to want to ensure their interests in such a situation.  And in a sense, they have proven their military might at the very least.

[adam_grif]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Why wouldnt they? I'd expect to find just as many human-ish aliens as non-humanish aliens.

The human biological system is very effective for a sapient creature, so why would nature evolve it in that manner only once?

You have to differentiate between characteristics that made humans successful, and characteristics that humans have. Intelligence is what made us successful, so intelligence is what natural selection will drive similar species towards on other planets. But say, arbitrary characteritics like breasts? Why would they have that? Considering that the most closely related species to us, various monkeys, have nipples but not really highly visible breasts, why would a completely unrelated species from an alien world have the same thing, if not even our closest cousins have it?

The Asari fit perfectly in the female half of sexual dimorphism in humans. Certain characteristics in males and females are exaggerated for purposes of differentiation, so you'd expect that in species that don't even have two genders, they'd be more androgynous than "obviously female".

The face is identical to humans, and their entire body is so human like they can wear human armor with zero problems. This is straining plausibility, in the same way that having the main character randomly guess a 2000 digit password on their first go would be straining plausibility.

It's not like they had to make them so human to be a sought after LI either. Look at the Tali and Garrus LI fans, and their respective alien species are far more plausible.

This isn't game breaking by any means, but it really pulls me out of the moment every time an Asari is on screen.

[Bryy_Miller]

My question is this: Cerberus. I mean, if you want to garner sympathy for your decidedly hate group-ish cause, why name it after the devil's puppy?

[lokiarchetype]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

My question is this: Cerberus. I mean, if you want to garner sympathy for your decidedly hate group-ish cause, why name it after the devil's puppy?

They were originally a black ops unit by that name (such groups tend to not worry about PR), it just carried over.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:39 .

[LucidStrike]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

My question is this: Cerberus. I
mean, if you want to garner sympathy for your decidedly hate group-ish
cause, why name it after the devil's puppy?

The Alliance named them that, because the Alliance is the devil. Duh.

Schneidend wrote...

[IRREFUTABLE TRUTH, AS ALWAYS.]

*Sigh* I'm just saying that BioWare has written in a more complete understanding of the Batarian situation. Who cares if BioWare thinks there are potentially legitimate complaints? I mean they're only the developers of the game. You're Schneidend. Sorry I wasted your time.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:59 .

[Schneidend]

LucidStrike wrote...
*Sigh* I'm just saying that BioWare has
written in a more complete understanding of the Batarian situation. Who
cares if BioWare thinks there are potentially legitimate complaints? I
mean they're only the developers of the game. You're Schneidend. Sorry
I wasted your time.

Stop being hyperbolic. What I know of the batarians and what I have seen of them are the only things I can draw conclusions from. Perhaps when I play ME2, this will change, provided Bioware can make it convincing. I'm not sure what you'd like me to do, here.

Bryy_Miller wrote...

My question is this: Cerberus. I mean, if you want to garner sympathy for your decidedly hate group-ish cause, why name it after the devil's puppy?

Well, Cerberus doesn't want "sympathy." They're fairly self-sufficient.

Cerberusisn't a "hate group." They merely work toward long-term human interests. The other races have organizations like the STG that do the same.

Cerberus the mythological character is not "the devil's puppy." He guards the gates of Hades, and Hades the deity is not the Greek version of the Christian devil.

Modifié par Schneidend, 22 janvier 2010 - 09:45 .

[lokiarchetype]

Schneidend wrote...

Well, Cerberus doesn't want "sympathy." They're fairly self-sufficient.

Cerberusisn't a "hate group." They merely work toward long-term human interests. The other races have organizations like the STG that do the same.

Cerberus the mythological character is not "the devil's puppy." He guards the gates of Hades, and Hades the deity is not the Greek version of the Christian devil.

QFT, Cerberus isn't a Hate Group as much as it is an Amoral Think Tank that thinks ethics get in the way of progress.

And Hades wasn't a bad guy, he just drew the short straw when him and his bros were choosing what domains they'd lord over.

[Schneidend]

lokiarchetype wrote...

And Hades wasn't a bad guy, he just drew the short straw when him and his bros were choosing what domains they'd lord over.

Hades isn't complaining nowadays, I bet. I'm pretty sure he's thusfar managed to avoid getting his head ripped off by Kratos. Helios was not so fortunate in the God of War III demo.

[zuluthrone]

I understand the complaints about humans wanting to rise too quickly in the council, but we clearly demonstrate the ability to rival any other race in all of their greatest traits, be the it the diplomacy of the asari, the combat readiness of the turians, or the cunning and intelligence of the salarians. This makes humans uniquely qualified to make an informed decision over all matters, while the others can typically only provide valuable recommendations from their polarized perspective. In addition, the short lifespan of humans force us to recognize threats and respond more quickly while providing for more rapid social and biological evolution than longer lived races. Yet shorter lived races than us are less fit to appreciate the big picture of the galaxy, as we do need a sense of long term goals.

We are essentially perfect for guiding the citadel races into a strong, prosperous future for all, best suited than any other to appreciate the needs all species.

[LucidStrike]

Schneidend wrote...

Stop being hyperbolic. What I know of the batarians and what I have seen of them are the only things I can draw conclusions from. Perhaps when I play ME2, this will change, provided Bioware can make it convincing. I'm not sure what you'd like me to do, here.

Well, Cerberus doesn't want "sympathy." They're fairly self-sufficient.

Cerberusisn't a "hate group." They merely work toward long-term human interests. The other races have organizations like the STG that do the same.

Cerberus the mythological character is not "the devil's puppy." He guards the gates of Hades, and Hades the deity is not the Greek version of the Christian devil.

What does it mtter that you CAN draw conclusions based on what you know? It doesn't mean those conclusions are sound and valid. Just speaking generally.

Cerberus IS nationalist, for sure. You never seem to mention that when you defend them.

[Schneidend]

LucidStrike wrote...

Cerberus IS nationalist, for sure. You never seem to mention that when you defend them.

And? I've never made the claim that they are not nationalists. I merely defend against this idea that Cerberus is some kind of Space KKK.

[lokiarchetype]

LucidStrike wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Stop being hyperbolic. What I know of the batarians and what I have seen of them are the only things I can draw conclusions from. Perhaps when I play ME2, this will change, provided Bioware can make it convincing. I'm not sure what you'd like me to do, here.

Well, Cerberus doesn't want "sympathy." They're fairly self-sufficient.

Cerberusisn't a "hate group." They merely work toward long-term human interests. The other races have organizations like the STG that do the same.

Cerberus the mythological character is not "the devil's puppy." He guards the gates of Hades, and Hades the deity is not the Greek version of the Christian devil.

What does it mtter that you CAN draw conclusions based on what you know? It doesn't mean those conclusions are sound and valid. Just speaking generally.

Cerberus IS nationalist, for sure. You never seem to mention that when you defend them.

I'm not sure I'd characterize his response as defending them.  I think Cerberus operatives are horrible people, but I wouldn't describe it as a hate group. 
That's not treating it with its due respect and that doesn't mean approval of or condoning their actions, it just means recognizing their capabilities and not being dismissive of a very powerful organization.

[RyuKazuha]

LucidStrike wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Stop being hyperbolic. What I know of the batarians and what I have seen of them are the only things I can draw conclusions from. Perhaps when I play ME2, this will change, provided Bioware can make it convincing. I'm not sure what you'd like me to do, here.

Well, Cerberus doesn't want "sympathy." They're fairly self-sufficient.

Cerberusisn't a "hate group." They merely work toward long-term human interests. The other races have organizations like the STG that do the same.

Cerberus the mythological character is not "the devil's puppy." He guards the gates of Hades, and Hades the deity is not the Greek version of the Christian devil.

What does it mtter that you CAN draw conclusions based on what you know? It doesn't mean those conclusions are sound and valid. Just speaking generally.

Cerberus IS nationalist, for sure. You never seem to mention that when you defend them.

I agree. Cerberus' values are very alike with that of nationalist groups found all over the world. It's clearly stated, that they've the goal to raise humans above all other races. And that is, keeping it short, racism.  True, they happen to have a "good" goal, when trying to sustain mankind, but everything apart of that is, for me, unacceptable.

As this discussion is. Judging any individual because of his race is racism, nothing more or less. It may be somewhat justified for the difference in race is real in that context (against racism that states there is actually more than one human "race"), but any individual is to be judged by his actions and personality, not for his biologic traits.

I personally don't dislike any of the species in ME, however, every species has individuals within its rows, that I dislike (or hate) for what they are doing. 

[FlintlockJazz]

Schneidend wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...
According to the wiki, the Batarians were actively colonizing the skyilian verge in the 2160's. They wanted this area to be declared of "Batarian interests". The Council refused, and the Batarians pretty much showed the Council the finger, and retreated.

Ah, okay. Batarians wanted to lay claim on an entire region of space, and the Council was all like "What? No, you actually have to build stuff." Not exactly what I was thinking, but similar.

No, the Council GAVE the humans the entire region, and even told them to take it while the Batarians were moving their stuff in and were like "Hey dude, we're like here!".

As for who I'm xenophobic against, it's humans.  Yeah, we're portrayed as this awesome great race, but I know humans, we're filthy lying ****s interested in our own advancement, while being so in love with ourselves that we have to make games where we are some benevolent leader of galactic space where we 'guide' other species because they're dumb...

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:28 .

[Schneidend]

RyuKazuha wrote...

I agree. Cerberus' values are very alike with that of nationalist groups found all over the world. It's clearly stated, that they've the goal to raise humans above all other races. And that is, keeping it short, racism.  True, they happen to have a "good" goal, when trying to sustain mankind, but everything apart of that is, for me, unacceptable.

As this discussion is. Judging any individual because of his race is racism, nothing more or less. It may be somewhat justified for the difference in race is real in that context (against racism that states there is actually more than one human "race"), but any individual is to be judged by his actions and personality, not for his biologic traits.

I personally don't dislike any of the species in ME, however, every species has individuals within its rows, that I dislike (or hate) for what they are doing. 

Working to improve the political and military power of your own state is not racism. That's ridiculous. That's like saying because a person wants France to be the best nation it can possibly be, that they hate blacks.

[Aradace]

If I absolutely had to pick one species that Im xenophobic against, it would have to be the Elcor. They're boring, and drab. I understand it's their culture and all but I just cant stop myself from laughing and poking fun at them every time I hear one speak.



"Thankful....that was a good thing you did Commander....Approving...See Din? No all humans are as you say..."

[lokiarchetype]

Schneidend wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

I agree. Cerberus' values are very alike with that of nationalist groups found all over the world. It's clearly stated, that they've the goal to raise humans above all other races. And that is, keeping it short, racism.  True, they happen to have a "good" goal, when trying to sustain mankind, but everything apart of that is, for me, unacceptable.

As this discussion is. Judging any individual because of his race is racism, nothing more or less. It may be somewhat justified for the difference in race is real in that context (against racism that states there is actually more than one human "race"), but any individual is to be judged by his actions and personality, not for his biologic traits.

I personally don't dislike any of the species in ME, however, every species has individuals within its rows, that I dislike (or hate) for what they are doing. 

Working to improve the political and military power of your own state is not racism. That's ridiculous. That's like saying because a person wants France to be the best nation it can possibly be, that they hate blacks.

I think I'd reserve racism to actively trying to suppress other races.

Cerberus treats other races with a complete disregard.  They don't want to oppress them as much as they're simply collateral damage. 
Their goal is the continuation, proliferation, and strengthening of the human race.  Any individual or group that gets in the way is crushed, indiscriminately (most of the victims in ME1 are other humans).

They are certainly amoral and self-serving.  Calling them a Hate Group just isn't grasping the scope of their intentions.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:36 .

[RyuKazuha]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

I agree. Cerberus' values are very alike with that of nationalist groups found all over the world. It's clearly stated, that they've the goal to raise humans above all other races. And that is, keeping it short, racism.  True, they happen to have a "good" goal, when trying to sustain mankind, but everything apart of that is, for me, unacceptable.

As this discussion is. Judging any individual because of his race is racism, nothing more or less. It may be somewhat justified for the difference in race is real in that context (against racism that states there is actually more than one human "race"), but any individual is to be judged by his actions and personality, not for his biologic traits.

I personally don't dislike any of the species in ME, however, every species has individuals within its rows, that I dislike (or hate) for what they are doing. 

Working to improve the political and military power of your own state is not racism. That's ridiculous. That's like saying because a person wants France to be the best nation it can possibly be, that they hate blacks.

I think I'd reserve racism to actively trying to suppress other races.

Cerberus treats other races with a complete disregard.  They don't want to oppress them as much as they're simply collateral damage. 
Their goal is the continuation, proliferation, and strengthening of the human race.  Any individual or group that gets in the way is crushed, indiscriminately.

They are certainly amoral and self-serving.

As a german i may be very sensitive to this, but a remember a political party with exact these goals. You'd just have to change out "human" with "Aryan".

[Schneidend]

Aradace wrote...

If I absolutely had to pick one species that Im xenophobic against, it would have to be the Elcor. They're boring, and drab. I understand it's their culture and all but I just cant stop myself from laughing and poking fun at them every time I hear one speak.

"Thankful....that was a good thing you did Commander....Approving...See Din? No all humans are as you say..."

It's not their culture that causes them to speak that way, it's their anatomy. The way they express subtlety and emotion is through scents and minute gestures that do not translate into other languages. They literally cannot help what you're making fun of them for.

[Schneidend]

RyuKazuha wrote...

As a german i may be very sensitive to this, but a remember a political party with exact these goals. You'd just have to change out "human" with "Aryan".

Just because "nahtzees" have "National" in their name, does not mean all nationalist organizations intentionally sabotage other nations or peoples. Besides, the rampant racism and homophobia aside, the National Socialist Party was integral in rebuilding Germany after adherence to a bogus peace treaty crippled its economy. But, I'm sure you're well aware of this.

[Verenti]

Turians. You just don't get over Shanxi.

[Aradace]

Schneidend wrote...

Aradace wrote...

If I absolutely had to pick one species that Im xenophobic against, it would have to be the Elcor. They're boring, and drab. I understand it's their culture and all but I just cant stop myself from laughing and poking fun at them every time I hear one speak.

"Thankful....that was a good thing you did Commander....Approving...See Din? No all humans are as you say..."

It's not their culture that causes them to speak that way, it's their anatomy. The way they express subtlety and emotion is through scents and minute gestures that do not translate into other languages. They literally cannot help what you're making fun of them for.

To be more precise in the "exact" codex entry it's "subtle body language and pheremones" yes yes I know...I worded myself wrong...I actually thank you for correcting me on that...I just woke up and havent even finished my first mug of coffee yet hehe.  Physiology or no, it's still funny.  For me, it's not so much they way they are speaking that makes me laugh, it's the image I get in my head of two Elcor having sex and what that would be like:

"Oh yes, oh yes....Orgasmic scream....Give it to me baby....Climatic moan...yes, right there....Growling....Now give it to me from the rear..."  Thats the kind of image I get in my head and I just cant stop laughing for some reason.