123 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

Aradace wrote...

"Oh yes, oh yes....Orgasmic scream....Give it to me baby....Climatic moan...yes, right there....Growling....Now give it to me from the rear..."  Thats the kind of image I get in my head and I just cant stop laughing for some reason.

Except that, if two elcor were having sex, they wouldn't do that. So...

[lokiarchetype]

RyuKazuha wrote...

As a german i may be very sensitive to this, but a remember a political party with exact these goals. You'd just have to change out "human" with "Aryan".

Godwin's Law.

The Aryan's systemically killed invalids, the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, various ethnic groups, various religious groups, etc.

I may be wrong, but that doesn't seem analogous at all to Cerberus.  Those actions fall under the umbrella of actively suppressing.

Cerberus kills people the way a black ops government organization kills people.  People that find out too much, people who go poking where they shouldn't, people who try to leave the organization, [Edit] and the way an amoral think tank would, experimental subjects.

As I recall, all the deaths that occur at their hands of Cerberus fall under the categories I've just listed

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:50 .

[Aradace]

Schneidend wrote...

Aradace wrote...

"Oh yes, oh yes....Orgasmic scream....Give it to me baby....Climatic moan...yes, right there....Growling....Now give it to me from the rear..."  Thats the kind of image I get in my head and I just cant stop laughing for some reason.

Except that, if two elcor were having sex, they wouldn't do that. So...

Damn you...stop trying to Spock me...I know very well that mating for Elcor most likely ISNT as physical as it is for most other species.  Wow...Where did humor ever run off to?  Just because someone has an "image" of something in their head doesnt mean they dont realize that it probably wouldnt play out that way. 

I am the Spock n-a-z-i now....No SPOCK FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Modifié par Aradace, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:51 .

[LucidStrike]

Schneidend wrote...

And? I've never made the claim that they are not nationalists. I merely defend against this idea that Cerberus is some kind of Space KKK.

Never said you did. It just seemed conveniently omitted.

Well, we'll see in a short while what Cerberus is like (beyond Yandoa, Claude Menneau, Akuze, Gillian Grayson, the Rachni, the Torian Creepers, Chasca, Corporal Toombs, Admiral Kahoku, and Golo, because that simply isn't enough information to evaluate their conduct <_<) won't we? Another spoiler is that not all Cerberus members like Cerberus. It'll be interesting to hear what they have to say and learn why they're there.

They're nationalists with schemes for human dominance. They're in Shepherd's crosshairs.

[Aradace]

lokiarchetype wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

As a german i may be very sensitive to this, but a remember a political party with exact these goals. You'd just have to change out "human" with "Aryan".

Godwin's Law.

The Aryan's systemically killed invalids, the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, various ethnic groups, various religious groups, etc.

I may be wrong, but that doesn't seem analogous at all to Cerberus.  Those actions fall under the umbrella of actively suppressing.

Cerberus kills people the way a black ops government organization kills people.  People that find out too much, people who go poking where they shouldn't, people who try to leave the organization, [Edit] and the way an amoral think tank would, experimental subjects.

As I recall, all the deaths that occur at their hands of Cerberus fall under the categories I've just listed

The Romans/Spartans had this philosophy as well, which is where the Germans got it from if memory serves.  If the child had a defect of any kind, it was "disposed" of.

[Schneidend]

Aradace wrote...

Damn you...stop trying to Spock me...I know very well that mating for Elcor most likely ISNT as physical as it is for most other species.  Wow...Where did humor ever run off to?  Just because someone has an "image" of something in their head doesnt mean they dont realize that it probably wouldnt play out that way. 

I am the Spock n-a-z-i now....No SPOCK FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Conjuring images of things that do not occur is illogical. Your time would be better spent on reality.

How's that for some vulcan for ya?

[Sharn01]

lokiarchetype wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Before that though, we hadn't really contributed ANYTHING to the galaxy. Except being a royal pain in the fundament. Before that, the contribution we had made was nothing that any of the other races (Volus, anyone?) hadn't already made. So yeah, we came in expecting unfair and unequal treatment. Typical human arrogance. And to be fair, you could say that humanity only suceeded because we had a man on the inside, and the Asari/Turian garrison gave their lives to take down a fair portion of the geth ships.

I think the First Contact War definitely sets the stage for how humans act upon entering to galactic community.

I mean their introduction to the "Space UN" was having it's police force attack them for violating laws they weren't aware of that we put in place by communities they didn't even know existed.

Would you really want to join that Space UN and be a 'lesser species' to the species that just attacked you without provocation?

One that you successfully defended yourself against? 
And now they want you to bow down to them and be at their mercy in diplomatic relations?

I think it's fair to want to be on equal footing with the Turian given that context.  

Replay ME or check online.

We reclaimed a planet the Turian's took from us with a few ships using the entire earth fleet.  After the Turian's amassed a fleet that could wipe the floor with the earth forces the council stepped in and forced a truce to save humanity.

[Aradace]

Schneidend wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Damn you...stop trying to Spock me...I know very well that mating for Elcor most likely ISNT as physical as it is for most other species.  Wow...Where did humor ever run off to?  Just because someone has an "image" of something in their head doesnt mean they dont realize that it probably wouldnt play out that way. 

I am the Spock n-a-z-i now....No SPOCK FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Conjuring images of things that do not occur is illogical. Your time would be better spent on reality.

How's that for some vulcan for ya?

And what's sad is that I no longer think of Leonard Nemoy's voice when I hear Spock....I think of...Sylar (cant remember his real name) lol

[Aradace]

Sharn01 wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Before that though, we hadn't really contributed ANYTHING to the galaxy. Except being a royal pain in the fundament. Before that, the contribution we had made was nothing that any of the other races (Volus, anyone?) hadn't already made. So yeah, we came in expecting unfair and unequal treatment. Typical human arrogance. And to be fair, you could say that humanity only suceeded because we had a man on the inside, and the Asari/Turian garrison gave their lives to take down a fair portion of the geth ships.

I think the First Contact War definitely sets the stage for how humans act upon entering to galactic community.

I mean their introduction to the "Space UN" was having it's police force attack them for violating laws they weren't aware of that we put in place by communities they didn't even know existed.

Would you really want to join that Space UN and be a 'lesser species' to the species that just attacked you without provocation?

One that you successfully defended yourself against? 
And now they want you to bow down to them and be at their mercy in diplomatic relations?

I think it's fair to want to be on equal footing with the Turian given that context.  

Replay ME or check online.

We reclaimed a planet the Turian's took from us with a few ships using the entire earth fleet.  After the Turian's amassed a fleet that could wipe the floor with the earth forces the council stepped in and forced a truce to save humanity.

For the record...the planet was Shanxi if memory serves

[Schneidend]

LucidStrike wrote...

They're nationalists with schemes for human dominance. They're in Shepherd's crosshairs.

"Human dominance" implies they want humans to actually run the galaxy. That is simply not the case, as anybody with any sense can tell you that no one galactic faction is powerful enough to do that. Cerberus doesn't want humans to rule over anybody. Superiority, on the other hand, is a different story.

Moreover, I have never argued that Cerberus are "the good guys." All I have ever said is that they are not a racist organization, and they don't have any kind of idiotic designs on galactic dictatorship.

[RyuKazuha]

Schneidend wrote...

RyuKazuha wrote...

As a german i may be very sensitive to this, but a remember a political party with exact these goals. You'd just have to change out "human" with "Aryan".

Just because "nahtzees" have "National" in their name, does not mean all nationalist organizations intentionally sabotage other nations or peoples. Besides, the rampant racism and homophobia aside, the National Socialist Party was integral in rebuilding Germany after adherence to a bogus peace treaty crippled its economy. But, I'm sure you're well aware of this.

Ok, i better back out of this, before I make it personal. I admit i'm not able to not take a strict position in this argument. But let me say one thing:

Rebuilding a nation or economy at the cost of not only thousands, but millions of lives is NOT a thing that i consider to be seen as a good thing in any way. However, any further discussion on this is pointless, since I am not able to even consider you could be right (regarding the topic). Also i won't accept that there's something good about striving for the ability to dominate others, while I'm very aware of the fact, that domination maybe the only way to make an Idea or species survives.

[LucidStrike]

Schneidend wrote...

...as anybody with any sense can tell you that no one galactic faction is powerful enough to do that. Cerberus doesn't want humans to rule over anybody...they don't have any kind of idiotic designs on galactic dictatorship.

Really?

ME Wiki

Cerberus plays a key role in the events of Mass Effect: Ascension. It is revealed that Cerberus is led by a mysterious figure known only as the Illusive Man, and that Cerberus' goal is for humanity to be ascendant over all other species.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:04 .

[lokiarchetype]

Sharn01 wrote...

Replay ME or check online.

We reclaimed a planet the Turian's took from us with a few ships using the entire earth fleet.  After the Turian's amassed a fleet that could wipe the floor with the earth forces the council stepped in and forced a truce to save humanity.

http://masseffect.wi...rst_Contact_War
"The turians believed they had defeated the bulk of the enemy forces. But they would be proven wrong when a month later Admiral Kastanie Drescher led the Second Fleet against Shanxi, catching the turians by surprise and evicting them from the planet. The turians and humans prepared for full-scale interplanetary war, drawing the notice of the rest of the galaxy.
Fortunately, the Citadel Council then intervened to negotiate a peace and bring the war to an end."

This was all I'm aware of.  I guess I'll have to look somewhere else?

Anyways, the point being, the Turians obviously had grudge towards humanity after that, would you really feel safe, as a human, to be ruled by a council with a Turian on it and no human? 
It's not like this is paranoia, the Turian Councillor is a total dick to you.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:06 .

[Schneidend]

[quote]RyuKazuha wrote...

Ok, i better back out of this, before
I make it personal. I admit i'm not able to not take a strict position
in this argument. But let me say one thing:

Rebuilding a nation or economy at the cost of not only thousands, but millions of lives is
NOT a thing that i consider to be seen as a good thing in any way. However, any further discussion on this is pointless, since I am not able to even consider you could be right (regarding the topic). Also i won't accept that there's something good about striving for the ability to dominate others, while I'm very aware of the fact, that domination maybe the only way to make an Idea or species survives.[/quote]

I'm not claiming that the Nahtzee's were "good" in any way. I'm only pointing out that they had positive influences as well as negative ones. Personally, I doubt Germany would be as successful as it is these days if not for their brief "golden age" under Nahtzee rule. Their economy boomed, they rebuilt their military, etc. Obviously, this in no way "makes up" for killing millions of people, but there's no use pretending it wasn't helpful to Germany in the long run.

[quote]LucidStrike wrote...

Cerberus plays a key role in the events of Mass Effect: Ascension. It is revealed that Cerberus is led by a mysterious figure known only as the Illusive Man, and that Cerberus' goal is for humanity to be ascendant over all other species.[/quote]
[/quote]

Yes, really. Ascendant. As in, greater than, more powerful than, above. This does not necessarily imply actual rulership. Even if humans were more powerful than the turians, salarians, or asari indvidually, they could never defeat them all thoroughly enough to conquer them. That would require a super weapon that simply does not exist.

Modifié par Schneidend, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:12 .

[Sharn01]

Yes he was.



I just recently finished a Mass Effect run and do not recall which conversation with whom the information came up with, it just was fresh in my mind, its not in the Codex which only gave an overview. I was doing a paragon playthrough though which reveals a lot more about lore then a renegade does.



The Turian forces however where not a fleet, just a group of ships doing security round's who saw some one randomly opening up pathways to dangerous area's with a relay they had just discovered, and it turned out to be us.



Judging from what I have gathered from ME it almost seems like a lot of earth's tech is based on help from the council, before the first contact war we had not made it out of our own solar system and where just beginning to research the new technology we had discovered, but that is speculation on my part.

[Schneidend]

Sharn01 wrote...

Yes he was.

I just recently finished a Mass Effect run and do not recall which conversation with whom the information came up with, it just was fresh in my mind, its not in the Codex which only gave an overview. I was doing a paragon playthrough though which reveals a lot more about lore then a renegade does.

The Turian forces however where not a fleet, just a group of ships doing security round's who saw some one randomly opening up pathways to dangerous area's with a relay they had just discovered, and it turned out to be us.

Judging from what I have gathered from ME it almost seems like a lot of earth's tech is based on help from the council, before the first contact war we had not made it out of our own solar system and where just beginning to research the new technology we had discovered, but that is speculation on my part.

No, we'd definitely made it out of our own system. The reason the turians attacked us is because we were opening up every relay we found without the Council's permission. This is considered a big no-no since the Rachni Wars.

[LucidStrike]

Schneidend wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

Cerberus plays a key role in the events of Mass Effect: Ascension. It is revealed that Cerberus is led by a mysterious figure known only as the Illusive Man, and that Cerberus' goal is for humanity to be ascendant over all other species.

Yes, really. Ascendant. As in, greater than, more powerful than, above. This does not necessarily imply actual rulership. Even if humans were more powerful than the turians, salarians, or asari indvidually, they could never defeat them all thoroughly enough to conquer them. That would require a super weapon that simply does not exist.

So they couldn't possibly want human dominance...even though that's their goal...because you think it would be foolish?...Hmm...Work with me here, because I think a may be onto something. Just gimme a moment to work through it...Could it possibly be that *drumroll* THEY'RE FOOLS? No, not your precious Cerberus. It was I who was the fool to think that. I was even more of a fool to think of Cerberus when I read this about the Collectors:

ME Wiki

Regardless of the possible danger, their requests are often granted by fringe groups because the technology the Collectors offer in return is often extremely valuable, giving any race who receives it an immediate advantage before it becomes adapted to the galactic community.

I mean, yeah, Cerberus IS a fringe group, and, yeah, they're goal IS for humanity to be ascendant over all other species, but...They can't be serious, right? History shows that.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:25 .

[lokiarchetype]

Sharn01 wrote...

Judging from what I have gathered from ME it almost seems like a lot of earth's tech is based on help from the council, before the first contact war we had not made it out of our own solar system and where just beginning to research the new technology we had discovered, but that is speculation on my part.

The humans had already encountered and activated multiple relays before the got to the one that was forbidden, which, along with what Cpt Anderson says about "The last time we found a prothean artifact it jumped our technology forward 200 years" seems to suggest that a lot of our tech is prothean based.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:23 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Sharn01 wrote...

Yes he was.

I just recently finished a Mass Effect run and do not recall which conversation with whom the information came up with, it just was fresh in my mind, its not in the Codex which only gave an overview. I was doing a paragon playthrough though which reveals a lot more about lore then a renegade does.

The Turian forces however where not a fleet, just a group of ships doing security round's who saw some one randomly opening up pathways to dangerous area's with a relay they had just discovered, and it turned out to be us.

Judging from what I have gathered from ME it almost seems like a lot of earth's tech is based on help from the council, before the first contact war we had not made it out of our own solar system and where just beginning to research the new technology we had discovered, but that is speculation on my part.

Humanity already had colonies when attacked by the Turians, and were caught opening relays.  The first fight was actually between Turian security forces and about 5 human ships, at least two of which were freighters from what I recall, of which only one human ship survived to bring the news to the nearest colony.  A colony was fought over and then both sides started to build up fleets in order to slap each other around before the council intervened.

[Schneidend]

LucidStrike wrote...

The wiki didn't use the word dominance. You did. Ascendance and dominance are not the same thing.

[LucidStrike]

Schneidend wrote...

The wiki didn't use the word dominance. You did. Ascendance and dominance are not the same thing.

Oh, touche. A technicality. We'll ignore the obvious relationship between ascension and dominance. I mean, I was making SUCH a stretch.

What say you of the other quote? While you're responding to that, mind putting "more plainly" what the WIki means by ascendance?

Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:29 .

[Colinissile]

Those crab things on virmire

WHY ARE THEY WALKIN' LIKE THAT!? ASKIN' FOR A MAKO BUMBER TO THE FACE!

[lokiarchetype]

LucidStrike wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

The wiki didn't use the word dominance. You did. Ascendance and dominance are not the same thing.

Oh, touche. A technicality. We'll ignore the obvious relationship between ascension and dominance. I mean, I was making SUCH a stretch.

What say you of the other quote? While you're responding to that, mind putting "more plainly" what the WIki means by ascendance?

There is a difference between "More Powerful Than" and "Dominion Over", if that's what he's getting at.

[Haasth]

Ehm... Well I don't really hate any race. I find most of them interesting; especially the Geth.

But my least favourite race... probably the Hanar. Though I'm not too fond of the Krogan either, but at least they got the whole 'interesting genophage' going for them.

[Schneidend]

lokiarchetype wrote...


There is a difference between "More Powerful Than" and "Dominion Over", if that's what he's getting at.

LucidStrike wrote...

What say you of the other quote? While you're responding to that, mind putting "more plainly" what the WIki means by ascendance?

Having some Collector tech would not make up for the fact that humans couldn't even beat the turians alone in a straight fight, as things currently stand. They simply have the ship advantage, the advantage of vastly greater numbers, and the resource advantage, and they have all three of these in overwhelming quanitites. If we can't beat the turians, we surely can't beat all three Council races. Collector tech is nice, and it would win battles, but it could not win an impossible war for us.

Modifié par Schneidend, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:34 .