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I mean that I'd like a more concrete explanation of it, since we risk splitting hairs over semantics. I mean what does it mean for humanity to be ascendnt over all other species?lokiarchetype wrote...
There is a difference between "More Powerful Than" and "Dominion Over", if that's what he's getting at.
Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:35 .
Schneidend wrote...
Yes, really. Ascendant. As in, greater than, more powerful than, above. This does not necessarily imply actual rulership. Even if humans were more powerful than the turians, salarians, or asari indvidually, they could never defeat them all thoroughly enough to conquer them. That would require a super weapon that simply does not exist.
Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:38 .
LOL. Misattribution. It wasn't me who said that. I'm an anarchist. No way I'd say something that...depraved.FlintlockJazz wrote...
LucidStrike DIDN'T write...
Yes, really. Ascendant. As in, greater than, more powerful than, above. This does not necessarily imply actual rulership. Even if humans were more powerful than the turians, salarians, or asari indvidually, they could never defeat them all thoroughly enough to conquer them. That would require a super weapon that simply does not exist.
Right, they want to be more powerful than other races because they believe in human superiority, therefore they believe that other races are lesser beings, therefore xenophobic. They may not want to rule, but don't be an idiot and think they won't sabotage other races to make sure they don't rise up and become as great as humanity. Plus, they are an unelected group making decisions for the entire human race, regardless of their motives they are attempting to usurp authority for themselves.
Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:38 .
LucidStrike wrote...
LOL. Misattribution. It wasn't me who said that. I'm an anarchist. No way I'd say something that...depraved.FlintlockJazz wrote...
LucidStrike DIDN'T write...
Yes, really. Ascendant. As in, greater than, more powerful than, above. This does not necessarily imply actual rulership. Even if humans were more powerful than the turians, salarians, or asari indvidually, they could never defeat them all thoroughly enough to conquer them. That would require a super weapon that simply does not exist.
Right, they want to be more powerful than other races because they believe in human superiority, therefore they believe that other races are lesser beings, therefore xenophobic. They may not want to rule, but don't be an idiot and think they won't sabotage other races to make sure they don't rise up and become as great as humanity. Plus, they are an unelected group making decisions for the entire human race, regardless of their motives they are attempting to usurp authority for themselves.
LucidStrike wrote...
I mean that I'd like a more concrete explanation of it, since we risk splitting hairs over semantics. I mean what does it mean for humanity to be ascendnt over all other species?lokiarchetype wrote...
There is a difference between "More Powerful Than" and "Dominion Over", if that's what he's getting at.
This is like debating the White Pride crowd, all split hairs.
Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:40 .
FlintlockJazz wrote...
Right, they want to be more powerful than other races because they believe in human superiority, therefore they believe that other races are lesser beings, therefore xenophobic. They may not want to rule, but don't be an idiot and think they won't sabotage other races to make sure they don't rise up and become as great as humanity. Plus, they are an unelected group making decisions for the entire human race, regardless of their motives they are attempting to usurp authority for themselves.
Schneidend wrote...
FlintlockJazz wrote...
Right, they want to be more powerful than other races because they believe in human superiority, therefore they believe that other races are lesser beings, therefore xenophobic. They may not want to rule, but don't be an idiot and think they won't sabotage other races to make sure they don't rise up and become as great as humanity. Plus, they are an unelected group making decisions for the entire human race, regardless of their motives they are attempting to usurp authority for themselves.
Attacking other nations because you don't want them to become more powerful than you is not racism. Cerberus hasn't attacked anybody simply because they are not human. It is not an organization motivated by hate. It is motivated by nationalism and patriotism. That's simply NOT the same as hating other states.
Modifié par rabbitchannel, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:46 .
rab****annel wrote...
I've killed more than 300 space monkeys.
Modifié par Skalman91, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:58 .
FlintlockJazz wrote...
It's motivated by the belief that humanity should be superior to other races. You don't have to hate to be a xenophobe or a rascist, in fact many of the worst rascists in history didn't hate the people they victimised.
And if it's fine for Cerberus to attack others to stop them from gaining power then it should be fine for the other races to attack and subjugate humanity to stop them from gaining power too.
lokiarchetype wrote...
FlintlockJazz wrote...
It's motivated by the belief that humanity should be superior to other races. You don't have to hate to be a xenophobe or a rascist, in fact many of the worst rascists in history didn't hate the people they victimised.
And if it's fine for Cerberus to attack others to stop them from gaining power then it should be fine for the other races to attack and subjugate humanity to stop them from gaining power too.
A drive to be the best wouldn't be motivated by the belief of superiority over other races, if that was the case then there'd be no reason to push forward since you already think you're better. It's more self-serving, wanting to be the most powerful so that you can always put your interests first, so that your needs are never marginalized.
And I think Cerberus fully expects that, that's probably why they feel the need to be so savage in their pursuit of securing human interests. At the very least, they think the other races won't help us, which seems to be a correct assumption given ME2's storyline.
I'm opposed to the existence of super powers as well.lokiarchetype wrote...
More Powerful Than vs Dominion Over would be like a Super Power vs an Empire. And are you likening us to skinheads? That doesn't seem very appropriate or civil.
Highly advanced tech, genetic engineering/modification, resource aquisition all could make one faction "More Powerful" than another.
Considering the experiments they carried out in ME1, they seem intent on both developing tech and strengthening human physiology.
Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:58 .
FlintlockJazz wrote...
It's motivated by the belief that humanity should be superior to other races. You don't have to hate to be a xenophobe or a rascist, in fact many of the worst rascists in history didn't hate the people they victimised.
And if it's fine for Cerberus to attack others to stop them from gaining power then it should be fine for the other races to attack and subjugate humanity to stop them from gaining power too.
Nah, I wanted to get the achievements for Assault Rifle and Shotgun and since non-hostiles still count as kills...RyuKazuha wrote...
rab****annel wrote...
I've killed more than 300 space monkeys.
Hidden Achievement?
LucidStrike wrote...
. I'm not saying that you ARE part of the white pride crowd but that your arguments have been similar, based on using linguistic ambiguities to your advantage.
Good Night, Human Pride.
Modifié par lokiarchetype, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:02 .
A great case for the destruction of all states.Schneidend wrote...
FlintlockJazz wrote...
It's motivated by the belief that humanity should be superior to other races. You don't have to hate to be a xenophobe or a rascist, in fact many of the worst rascists in history didn't hate the people they victimised.
Well, considering each of these races is also a state vying for power, as states tend to do, it can't really be racism. That's like saying the United States is "racist" against North Korea.And if it's fine for Cerberus to attack others to stop them from gaining power then it should be fine for the other races to attack and subjugate humanity to stop them from gaining power too.
I never stated that this wasn't fine. It's the nature of politics. All states have organizations like Cerberus, that do the dirty jobs, and they always will. The salarians have the STG, and that's just the group we know for certain exists.
Tolokiarchetype wrote...
I'm not sure where there is coming
from, I did my best to clarify what I meant and made attempts to
clarify what other people were trying to say. If you can supply an
example I will address it.
Speaking plainly doesn't mean one advocates such causes or
methods. It's an impediment to a serious discussion to constantly have
to go "Wow they're so bad" "How terrible" They're just evil, that's all it is" lest one be accused of condoning such things.
If you don't make the attempt to genuinely understand your opponents
and their mindsets then you'll have a very difficult time defeating
them.
Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:09 .
Modifié par LucidStrike, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:07 .
LucidStrike wrote...
To be honest, I lossely lumped you in with Schneidend, after you posted that. I considered that you might not concur with everything he said, but you didn't note otherwise, so I went ahead with the lumping. Schneidend and I have been having this debate for some time.
Also, the Good Night was for Cerberus and others who believe in human superiority.
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]
adam_grif wrote...
I hate Asari so much because they're far too human-like. They're even reproductively compatible for Pete's sake. They don't have any voice filters either - they have normal human voices. And wtf is with SciFi artists and sticking boobs on things that are not placental mammals? Not even all Mammals have boobs, nor do the vast vast majority of Earth species, why would totally unrelated species have them?
GAAFSDFGSGSG.
FlintlockJazz wrote...
Schneidend wrote...
FlintlockJazz wrote...
Right, they want to be more powerful than other races because they believe in human superiority, therefore they believe that other races are lesser beings, therefore xenophobic. They may not want to rule, but don't be an idiot and think they won't sabotage other races to make sure they don't rise up and become as great as humanity. Plus, they are an unelected group making decisions for the entire human race, regardless of their motives they are attempting to usurp authority for themselves.
Attacking other nations because you don't want them to become more powerful than you is not racism. Cerberus hasn't attacked anybody simply because they are not human. It is not an organization motivated by hate. It is motivated by nationalism and patriotism. That's simply NOT the same as hating other states.
It's motivated by the belief that humanity should be superior to other races. You don't have to hate to be a xenophobe or a rascist, in fact many of the worst rascists in history didn't hate the people they victimised.
And if it's fine for Cerberus to attack others to stop them from gaining power then it should be fine for the other races to attack and subjugate humanity to stop them from gaining power too.
Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 22 janvier 2010 - 12:39 .
Jonny_Evil wrote...
Cerberus haven't attacked any of the other races (apart from the flotilla, which was an operation to retrieve a human, not an attack on the Quarians), there's no mention of them being xenophobic and the Illusive Man himself draws up a list of candidates for Shepard to recruit that are primarily aliens. Since humanity moved out into the galaxy things changed from being battles of ideology and race to simply a matter of survival or extinction. Humanity can either rely on the goodwill of alien species it knows little about and has only been aware of for a few decades for it's very survival or it can attempt to put itself in a situation where the survival of humanity as a species can be assured by humanity itself.
"Human superiority" in Mass Effect simply means that Humanity has the means to protect it's existence regardless of the actions of the other species. It's unrelated to notions of racial or national superiority as they are now, and the entire concept has some grounding in Mass Effect's history. You'll note that the council only stepped in to stop the First Contact War after the Alliance had ousted the Turians and defeated their fleet. Without the ability to protect themselves humanity would most likely have ended up a Turian client race and while the Alliance hasn't learned that lesson publicly, Cerberus and TIM certainly have.
I'm not saying that the Council inherently can't be trusted, but Humans have only known the other species for such a short time that putting the very survival of the species solely in their hands is insane. Cerberus is advocating a "peace through strength" position, that being more powerful will merely ensure human survival. Nowhere is there any mention of inherent human superiority or plans for domination beyond vague descriptions as a "pro-human" terrorist group.
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