328 réponses à ce sujet

[Paul E Dangerously]

The HP is just right if you utilize your party skills correctly and allocate your attribute points for damage instead of constitution. That's the real problem I think. Players don't know that they're making the wrong decisions because the game merely punishes them with a much longer combat instead of outright killing them. Players think that they're good at the game and the combat is "grindy" when in fact they just outright suck. The game is sending mixed signals whilst not teaching the player or encouraging them to make the correct decisions since they can make bad decisions and still be fine.

 

I knew someone was going to say this. DA2's not bad in that aspect if you gear your characters a particular way - namely for speed, with mages capable of casting Haste on Vanguard Berserker Warriors and turning Hawke into a pointy human tornado. Rogue Assassins can eliminate enemies pretty quickly, too.

 

The problem lies that if you don't, you're going to sit there watching your character whack on some random thug with more HP than one of DAO's Ogres. It's hard to deny that there was an HP boost from Origins to DAO.

 

"Get Good" does not cover for poor design decisions, and that's just one of them.

[AlanC9]

corypheus fight was awesome (it wasn't just banging over his head, it was hit, look at the screen, run away and repeat), please give us more of those (please please please). i think i get the idea why some players may not like it tho. i'm all for giving "narrative" difficulty.
 

So the puzzle-ness of the battle is a good thing? Same for the Ancient Rock Wraith, I guess, since its melee attacks can be sidestepped by watching its animations. And the Arishok, and.... I'm starting to see a pattern here.

This is an old gaming issue. Anyone else remember arguments between Wing Commander and X-Wing partisans?

[AlanC9]

I knew someone was going to say this. DA2's not bad in that aspect if you gear your characters a particular way - namely for speed, with mages capable of casting Haste on Vanguard Berserker Warriors and turning Hawke into a pointy human tornado. Rogue Assassins can eliminate enemies pretty quickly, too.
 
The problem lies that if you don't, you're going to sit there watching your character whack on some random thug with more HP than one of DAO's Ogres. It's hard to deny that there was an HP boost from Origins to DAO.
 

Well, that's what happens with complex character building systems. DA2 is about the synergies. DAO much less so, largely because warriors and rogues were all pretty similar. A lot of complex RPG build systems end up this way. PnP too, particularly point-buy systems.

 

Edit: I guess that's the point of the thread -- wanting the game to be easy enough so you can ignore the synergies.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm someone who does plan his party carefully, and someone who does play on Hard, but I completely agree with the OP.  This sort of feature should exist to accommodate players who are primarily interested in the non-combat aspects of the game.

 

We don't all like to play the same way.  The game should not force us to do so.

[AlanC9]

 

On an unrelated note, Origins had a narrative mode: It was unlocked by leveling up any character in Herbalism and spamming potions.

 

 

Note that the Combat Tweaks mod keeps this under control -- a little -- by putting all healing items on the same cooldown.

[TataJojo]

I just hope I won't need it. When I start a DAII playthrough I'm like "okay I usually play it on easy because I suck at combat in DA but I want to try and challenge myself a little and go on normal" but then by the middle of the game when I have to go against bandit n°254587421571541 I just go back to easy so that I can enjoy the story more and not get interrupted by pointless combat all the time.

 

But I still want so that I can do heavily story based playthroughs

[BubbleDncr]

Since it's a single player game, there's no reason not to. It could only broaden the audience of people who could enjoy it.

[Ieldra]

I just hope I won't need it. When I start a DAII playthrough I'm like "okay I usually play it on easy because I suck at combat in DA but I want to try and challenge myself a little and go on normal" but then by the middle of the game when I have to go against bandit n°254587421571541 I just go back to easy so that I can enjoy the story more and not get interrupted by pointless combat all the time.
 
But I still want so that I can do heavily story based playthroughs

LOL, don't I know that. It was even more extreme with me. I thought "OK let's try it on Hard" but then came bandit no. 12993289 and spider no. 554443i and I not only switched to easy but installed a damage reduction mod on top of it. The absolutely disappointing thing was that combat still wasn't over as fast as I wanted since combat on Easy is bugged so that it often takes forever and several hits to deprive an enemy of the last hitpoint.

That's a somewhat unrelated point though. I expect DAI's combat to be way more interesting than DA2's, but I still want the super-easy mod for more story-oriented playthroughs.

BTW, I'm sure that number of bandits was a slight exaggerating. Slight.

[Mockingword]

The HP is just right if you utilize your party skills correctly and allocate your attribute points for damage instead of constitution. That's the real problem I think. Players don't know that they're making the wrong decisions because the game merely punishes them with a much longer combat instead of outright killing them. Players think that they're good at the game and the combat is "grindy" when in fact they just outright suck. The game is sending mixed signals whilst not teaching the player or encouraging them to make the correct decisions since they can make bad decisions and still be fine.

 

As for a super-easy narrative difficulty, I don't see the harm in that as long as they don't make it the default. The default difficulty should force the player to play the game correctly. I hate it when people complain about combat not being strategic when the hardest difficulty they've tried is default.

 

Maybe the arguments against narrative difficulty is that players do not want to be associated with a game that's easy kinda like the anti-Dark Souls. "Oh, you're playing DA:I? The dating simulator? Did you press the right buttons to get to the gay sex? You mean there's combat in the game?!"

Maybe "players" should get over themselves.

[Realmzmaster]

The combat of the game should not prevent a gamer from roleplaying. If the game requires a particular build or decision to win the combat the game is designed wrong. There should always be different ways to win a battle.  The problem with a lot of crpgs is that instead of getting intelligent enemy AI tactics you get HP bloat. That simply becomes a war of attrition. That is simply not fun. I want an enemy that kills me not because the enemy has a lot more hit points but because it has a strategy and out plan me.

 

I have no problem with an super easy narrative mode even if on by default. As lomg as the documentation tells me so or a screen shows the set difficulty level I can change it.

[JCFR]

Oh... the "telltale"-mode. I like telltale and their way of storytelling but essentially it' not really games what they produce... at least not to me. It's animated picture-books with some QTEs. Nice with brilliant characters and a gripping story... but lacking any substance. Maybe that's also why i completed "the wolf among us" only 2-times while i played through DAO for at least 9 times.

 

Without any intention to offend i tend to say: If you wish to see the story but don't want to play the game, why even bother buying it? Just watch playthroughs on youtube.

I like playing, i like a bit of challenge (but not the dark souls kind of difficulty) and asking something like this is... well like: why making the developers put any effort into class, skill and fighting-system if all you wish is just to breeze or run  through everything? Kinda beats the purpose to me. 

 

Nowadays there seem to be 2 trends: Make everything easier and: make everything harder. I see myself somewhere in the middle: Just make it fair.

[TataJojo]

Oh... the "telltale"-mode. I like telltale and their way of storytelling but essentially it' not really games what they produce... at least not to me. It's animated picture-books with some QTEs. Nice with brilliant characters and a gripping story... but lacking any substance. Maybe that's also why i completed "the wolf among us" only 2-times while i played through DAO for at least 9 times.

 

Without any intention to offend i tend to say: If you wish to see the story but don't want to play the game, why even bother buying it? Just watch playthroughs on youtube.

I like playing, i like a bit of challenge (but not the dark souls kind of difficulty) and asking something like this is... well like: why making the developers put any effort into class, skill and fighting-system if all you wish is just to breeze or run  through everything? Kinda beats the purpose to me. 

 

Nowadays there seem to be 2 trends: Make everything easier and: make everything harder. I see myself somewhere in the middle: Just make it fair.

 

I think it matters that you only want to experience the story wen you get to create your character and/or make choices that affect the narrative

 

I had no problem watching walkthroughs of games like Uncharted or Metal Gear Solid as I knew I would never enjoy playing them but knew I would enjoy watching them as some kind of movie, and it doesn't have a character creator or branching paths...etc

 

Dragon Age focuses a lot on the story and I take great pleasure in creating a character and seing him/her evolve in the world of Thedas, make decisions based on the personality I imagined, see the consequences of said choices...

[Mister Gusty]

I think its a good idea, I know plenty of people who would love the story-lines to the DA series but wouldn't touch it because they aren't the best at combat or interested in combat, also it would be handy for doing playthroughs where all you want to do is get to the story sections, I don't know how many times I decided not to replay DA:O because I was not bothered doing the fade section or traipsing about the Deep Roads

[fchopin]

Yep, there should be a very easy mode for whoever wants to use it as long as normal stays normal.

[Ieldra]

Oh... the "telltale"-mode. I like telltale and their way of storytelling but essentially it' not really games what they produce... at least not to me. It's animated picture-books with some QTEs. Nice with brilliant characters and a gripping story... but lacking any substance. Maybe that's also why i completed "the wolf among us" only 2-times while i played through DAO for at least 9 times.

 

Without any intention to offend i tend to say: If you wish to see the story but don't want to play the game, why even bother buying it? Just watch playthroughs on youtube.

I like playing, i like a bit of challenge (but not the dark souls kind of difficulty) and asking something like this is... well like: why making the developers put any effort into class, skill and fighting-system if all you wish is just to breeze or run  through everything? Kinda beats the purpose to me. 

Well, you got it wrong. Bioware's games are story-driven and have choices and consequences, which means that the things you do outside of combat usually have narrative significance. Mostly, they have rather more narrative significance than the combat. What I really want is to be able to adopt a playstyle where those parts which have narrative significance, the choices I make and their consequence which actually shape the story and the character (this is why I play instead of watch - I can shape the story and my character), *and* those 5% of all fights which have narrative significance, where those elements are given more prominence.

 

The thing is, killing 20000 nameless bandits says nothing about my character since there is no choice involved in it and we are capable in combat basically by default. Within the context of the game's story, a single encounter with an unimportant NPC where I can make a decision about how to answer a request says more about my character than 20k killed bandits, and a single yes or nor in an important encounter does more to change the story than killing those bandits either.

 

Since rpg conventions result in this nonsensical overabundance of combat and some people actually appear to like it for reasons I can't fathom, the nearest thing to such a playstyle where narratively signficant elements are given more more prominence is one with super-easy combat. It has absolutely nothing to do with just wanting to watch a story, and everything with the desire to shape a story rather than engage in pointless fighting and killing so many people that thinking about it will break your suspension of disbelief. 

 

Oh, and yes I know rather well how satisfying it can be to meet a difficult combat challenge in an rpg. I most emphatically do not deny that such encounters have their place, and I do look forward to getting some, preferably with narrative signficance as well. I just don't want to be forced to deal with them in every playthrough, or to be forced to deal with a normal encounter turned into a difficult challenge because I selected the characters for my party for story reasons rather than for combat efficiency. 

[Rosey]

I'm a Nightmare player.

 

I have zero reasons against allowing a casual, or naritive setting for DA:I. Why?

 

Because not everyone enjoys playing on super hard mode. Not everyone likes spending an hour killing one boss. Not everyone has time.

 

I adore the harder settings and the Challanges that come with them, and it feels (badword) fantastic when I beat a super difficult encounter. That doesn't mean everyone does.

 

And honestly, I always do my first playthrough on the Easiest setting (usually normal, occasionally casual/narative if it's available) for these kinds of games -- because while I LOVE a challange, I want to see the story first with out dying 10,000 times. I save the hard/harder/hardest playthroughs for subsequent playthroughs.

 

Once I've seen the story, I whole heartedly dive in to the more challanging versions to get my "I won in super hardmode" fix. and that, alone, is a great reason to have a Narative or Casual setting.

[JCFR]

Well, you got it wrong. Bioware's games are story-driven and have choices and consequences, which means that the things you do outside of combat usually have narrative significance. Mostly, they have rather more narrative significance than the combat. What I really want is to be able to adopt a playstyle where those parts which have narrative significance, the choices I make and their consequence which actually shape the story and the character (this is why I play instead of watch - I can shape the story and my character), *and* those 5% of all fights which have narrative significance, where those elements are given more prominence.

 

The thing is, killing 20000 nameless bandits says nothing about my character since there is no choice involved in it and we are capable in combat basically by default. Within the context of the game's story, a single encounter with an unimportant NPC where I can make a decision about how to answer a request says more about my character than 20k killed bandits, and a single yes or nor in an important encounter does more to change the story than killing those bandits either.

 

Since rpg conventions result in this nonsensical overabundance of combat and some people actually appear to like it for reasons I can't fathom, the nearest thing to such a playstyle where narratively signficant elements are given more more prominence is one with super-easy combat. It has absolutely nothing to do with just wanting to watch a story, and everything with the desire to shape a story rather than engage in pointless fighting and killing so many people that thinking about it will break your suspension of disbelief. 

 

Oh, and yes I know rather well how satisfying it can be to meet a difficult combat challenge in an rpg. I most emphatically do not deny that such encounters have their place, and I do look forward to getting some, preferably with narrative signficance as well. I just don't want to be forced to deal with them in every playthrough, or to be forced to deal with a normal encounter turned into a difficult challenge because I selected the characters for my party for story reasons rather than for combat efficiency. 

As you wish.

 

I like feeling badass by totaly obliterating enemies through superior skill and higher level. Just breezing through monsterhordes... well it kinda destroys to me the mood. Like: The world is in danger BY... Rats... yes, Rats - with the apperance of demons but nevertheless weak as rats. If everyone dies with one hit... how can the world be treatened?

Of course exterminating thousands and thousands of enemies should not be the core of a RPG-game but... this narrative-mode-thing sets a dangerous trend in my opinion.

Like mentioned: If it's enough to just tell great stories without any challenge or effort to get through... then why even care of a well made tactical-combat-system? Why even care about balancing?

 

I don't play the highest diffculties but still i like some fair challenge... something that takes a bit brain to be successful. To me narrative-mode is the always-on-god-mode. if you want that, just ask for a cheat-console.

[Maclimes]

I don't know, but my gut says, "maybe".

[Rosey]

As you wish.

 

I like feeling badass by totaly obliterating enemies through superior skill and higher level. Just breezing through monsterhordes... well it kinda destroys to me the mood. Like: The world is in danger BY... Rats... yes, Rats - with the apperance of demons but nevertheless weak as rats. If everyone dies with one hit... how can the world be treatened?

Of course exterminating thousands and thousands of enemies should not be the core of a RPG-game but... this narrative-mode-thing sets a dangerous trend in my opinion.

Like mentioned: If it's enough to just tell great stories without any challenge or effort to get through... then why even care of a well made tactical-combat-system? Why even care about balancing?

 

I don't play the highest diffculties but still i like some fair challenge... something that takes a bit brain to be successful. To me narrative-mode is the always-on-god-mode. if you want that, just ask for a cheat-console.

 

The point of asking for a casual or narative setting for the combat mechanics isn't about you. It's about folks who want to play the game too, but maybe don't have time to slog through an hour long boss fight, or maybe are disabled and have a difficult time with some of the combat mechanics. Or Just want their first playthrough to go smoothly so they can experience the story with out having to reload due to miscacluating a combat situation.

 

Asking for a casual or naritive setting hurts NO ONE. Especially not folks who enjoy a challange. Casual settings are there to bring people to a game that would otherwise avoid it for a thousand different reasons. As someone who consistantly choses the hardest mode of gameplay in most games I play, allowing folks who aren't combat-minded or otherwise able to play is a GOOD THING. It hurts no one. It sure as void doesn't hurt me if it enables other folks to come play, enjoy the story, and maybe even come to the forums to discuss their new-found love of something I also enjoy.

 

The Elitest Mindset only HURTS games and gaming in general. It hurts the company who makes games we love by excluding folks. Which in turn removed their ability to continue to bring these types of games, full of beautiful worlds and stories, rich characters and challanging game play.

 

No one is asking that they replace Nightmare or Super Hardcore Mode in favor of a Casual or Narative setting. They're asking to ALSO include a setting that allows folks who aren't normally attracted to games with heavy elements of combat for one reason or another.

 

And Honestly, bringing more folks to the table who can share what we love is never, ever, a bad thing. I don't know about you, but when I randomly run into someone who normally isn't a gamer suddenly gush for hours about a game I also love -- well it's a pretty awesome thing indeed to be able to share.

[DalishRanger]

Easy = You can still die if you don't may minimal attention and keep moving

"Narrative" = Lol next to God Mode, where you'll have to stand right in the open for a while and do little, to have any real chance of losing

 

At least that's how it was for the (more shooter) ME3. If I was playing on Casual, I still had to be an 'active player'. On Narrative, I only had to point and shoot..in any way..with anything.

In fact, squadmates easily took down all minor enemies if I let them.

 

I can attest to this, as I did a recent run on Narrative so I could do a quick play with one of my alternate Shepards. I was playing the London run at the end of a very long day, and actually fell asleep right at the beginning of a fight. I don't know how long I was out, but when I came to, the area was clear and my Shepard was just standing around nonchalantly in the spot I'd left him in.

 

But on the note of the OP, this is something I would appreciate. Though I tend to play easier difficulties in general, I usually avoid Narrative because it's too easy even for someone like me - who has trouble micro-managing and dividing my attention in split second decisions in combat; it's still something that would be nice as an option, for more narrative focused runs, or, as  mentioned earlier, for when you're recording video or similar and want to avoid potential reloads.

[Stelae]

I can attest to this, as I did a recent run on Narrative so I could do a quick play with one of my alternate Shepards. I was playing the London run at the end of a very long day, and actually fell asleep right at the beginning of a fight. I don't know how long I was out, but when I came to, the area was clear and my Shepard was just standing around nonchalantly in the spot I'd left him in.

That is absolutely awesome! 

 

"Peuh, these guys?  I could beat them in my sleep"

 

Narrative mode Shepard is the badassiest of the badasses.

[thats1evildude]

Asking for a casual or naritive setting hurts NO ONE. 

 

I'm not so sure about that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind that a Casual/Easy setting exists in these games. I've even used it at times when I was just re-visiting an old save and didn't care about in XP. But I'm not in favour of a setting below Casual/Easy - the so-called Narrative mode - because it does require an investment of resources to create that setting. So in a sense, you are robbing the rest of us because you don't want to put in the absolute minimum amount of effort required to play at Casual/Easy.

[AlanC9]

How much easier than Casual are we talking about, anyway?

[berelinde]

I'm not so sure about that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind that a Casual/Easy setting exists in these games. I've even used it at times when I was just re-visiting an old save and didn't care about in XP. But I'm not in favour of a setting below Casual/Easy - the so-called Narrative mode - because it does require an investment of resources to create that setting. So in a sense, you are robbing the rest of us because you don't want to put in the absolute minimum amount of effort required to play at Casual/Easy.

And the other poster thinks the resources would be better spent on Narrative Mode than on something you want. You're both paying the same amount for the game. It's unreasonable to expect that your desires should carry more weight than someone else's. And whatever you want would rob people of the enjoyment they would get from playing in story mode.

 

Personally, I don't much care about the difficulty. I'm playing in Nightmare mode. I DO care about abolishing the idea that some players are more worthy of having their wishes catered to, however. We don't need the elitism.

[Stelae]

I'm not so sure about that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind that a Casual/Easy setting exists in these games. I've even used it at times when I was just re-visiting an old save and didn't care about in XP. But I'm not in favour of a setting below Casual/Easy - the so-called Narrative mode - because it does require an investment of resources to create that setting. So in a sense, you are robbing the rest of us because you don't want to put in the absolute minimum amount of effort required to play at Casual/Easy.

And just what is it you think you are losing out on? 

 

Yes, asking for a thing --voiced nug companions, non-sexist dialogue, a cooking minigame, non-lethal damage-- is asking Bioware to put time and effort into making that thing.  And not everyone will care about the extra thing, and some will say "well, I'm not going to use the non-lethal damage option, so Bioware shouldn't have bothered putting it in because they could have spent that time making something that I wanted, like voiced nugs." Bioware gets to determine what is possible, and what constitutes a good use of their time, and they also get to make a game with as much broad appeal as they think is appropriate. 

 

I'm not a fan of multiplayer.  But was Bioware robbing me when they implemented it for ME3?  I think not; what they were doing was making a cool thing for people who DO like multiplayer.  It took more resources, and theoretically it means some other thing wasn't greenlit.  But I got a cracking game (a few quibbles) and I knew what I was paying for when I bought it. 

 

There'll still be various modes of play; they won't be sacrificed.  And there'll still be (hopefully) a big-ass, cracking game with bits that we can all quibble over for eternity.  You are not "being robbed" simply because the developers take the time to cater to gamers other than you.