230 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthReavus]

Everytime you say "Space Marine" I cringe. This isn't Warhammer 40K and that's the image the term Space Marine conjurs up. I think it's a poor term to apply to Mass Effect. Yes Shep's a Marine and yes he's in space, but that doesn't mean Shep should be referred to as a Space Marine.

[Mox Ruuga]

Not every console gamer is a "console kiddie". Not by a long shot.

But the casual gaming kiddies are who Bioware is hoping to attract with the move towards being more of a shooter, instead of sticking with the console and PC RPG fans they used to value.

[Zulu_DFA]

DarthReavus wrote...

Everytime you say "Space Marine" I cringe. This isn't Warhammer 40K and that's the image the term Space Marine conjurs up. I think it's a poor term to apply to Mass Effect. Yes Shep's a Marine and yes he's in space, but that doesn't mean Shep should be referred to as a Space Marine.

Heh!..

This:

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Lehanna wrote...

For one, being able to outfit each squad member in different armor cuts down on visual personality. It was also a giant pain in the ass. I can't remember how many times I went wandering around the universe's stupid stores looking for good armor that didn't look like a bright yellow traffic coordinator suit. If you try to keep all the squad members in multiple armors, you'd end up with a Tali situation, where all their armors are just stupid recolors of the original article of clothing/armor. Actually, that drove me nuts in ME1. Same armor, just retextured.

Second of all, to the guy who keeps saying 'SPEHS MAHRINE' over and over, I ask you: How many of the squad members are 'Space Marines'? Ash is gone, so... Shepard. Just Shepard.

For that issue not just Shepard. Jacob Taylor too. No assault rifle for him I can cope with, But where is his armor, at least a stupid one like Ashley's (Phoenix it was called, if I remember correctly). Then, there is Garrus, who is supposed to have serve in the turian army. he is almost OK in his blue armor, yet he seems to accidentally forget his helmet on Omega, and never miss it. No wonder we had beaten such an army in the 1st Contact War. Then in ME1 Liara wasn't a space marine either, still she used a hardsuit quite effectively. I guess they can make easy to accomodate, user-friendy hardsuits there in 2180s, that don't require lots of training.

And then, if our so BADASS squaddies can't act like space marines, they have no business on a mission in the uncharted space. Let them stick to their petty crime and mundane problems groundside.

Cerbin aep Dol Blathanna wrote...

This. Also: Space Marine is
wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/96/MkVIII_Errant.jpg
This.

Yes, good picture. It's WarHammer 40K, I guess. They did a good job in implementing the concept of the Space Marine into strategy games. And it's an old concept rooting to Robert Heinleins' "Starship Troopers", where they were not even called "marines", but since then in the sci-fi the idea of a soldier in space warfare was inseparably linked to the powered armor concept. Which was brilliantly reflected in ME1. And now they are ditching this brilliance.

Man, I'm just so exited about this, it hit me like a ton of bricks just yestrday: There won't be any armor for the crew. It's an interactive cheezy comic book now, not an interactive clever sci-fi novel. I thought ME2 was to be a really outstanding game, in spite of all the gameplay dumbifications, because it's going to retain the flavor and the aura of the original story. But, alas! It is not.

But OK. I''m dropping this SPACE MARINE tune.

[Lehanna]

Good to see that, hours later, we're still hammering the same rhetoric continually as if no one hadn't already rolled through and wrecked all of your logical fallacies.

Also tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

[Lehanna]

Zulu seems to have a strange hard on for the whole 'SPACE MARINE' concept. You do realise that, for all intents and purposes, the Normandy and all within it are no longer part of a true 'Space Navy' or formal military? At best they're a shadow paramilitary group, which makes the composition of a rag-tag group of 'operatives' make much more sense than this idyllic picture you seem to have of a naval boarding party. In space.

[Zulu_DFA]

Lehanna wrote...

Zulu seems to have a strange hard on for the whole 'SPACE MARINE' concept. You do realise that, for all intents and purposes, the Normandy and all within it are no longer part of a true 'Space Navy' or formal military? At best they're a shadow paramilitary group, which makes the composition of a rag-tag group of 'operatives' make much more sense than this idyllic picture you seem to have of a naval boarding party. In space.

And it perfectly explains why on a mission to an uncharted space, where nobody has ever returned from, these "operatives" are going to embark half naked. I understand that they are not going to have all the alliance regulations and do it "by the book". But the must have at least the equipment, that allows them to survive at least the feasible hazards of the war (and TIM stresses this word) in the fraggin' SPACE, like the ultra-violet radiation for example. Hell, in the 22nd century they must be fully dressed on Earth's surface for that reason.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 janvier 2010 - 07:52 .

[Lehanna]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Lehanna wrote...

Good to see that, hours later, we're still hammering the same rhetoric continually as if no one hadn't already rolled through and wrecked all of your logical fallacies.

Also tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

Anything else to say?

OK here's the bait: Just because *you* like it doesn't mean that ME2 doesn't suck.

Just because *you* don't like it, doesn't mean ME2 WONT suck. See how that works? Also see above double post about your SPACE MARINE boner.

Modifié par Lehanna, 22 janvier 2010 - 07:43 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anything else to say?

OK here's the bait: Just because *you* like it doesn't mean that ME2 doesn't suck.

S/he's unimaginative enough to resort to posting a TVTropes link. I'm surprised it wasn't the hoary old "FanDumb" one... That's what the BioRimmers usually spam.

[Lehanna]

Maybe it's more of a commentary on how derivative the both of you are to be ableto fit perfectly into a Trope.

[Darth_Shizz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anything else to say?

OK here's the bait: Just because *you* like it doesn't mean that ME2 doesn't suck.

Here are some more threads for you to verbally "******" to:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/69778


social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/637060


and seeing as you've not littered this one with sweeping rhetoric yet...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/707804

Enjoy yourself.

<3

Edited for clarity.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:03 .

[Lehanna]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Lehanna wrote...

Good to see that, hours later, we're still hammering the same rhetoric continually as if no one hadn't already rolled through and wrecked all of your logical fallacies.

Also tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

Anything else to say?

OK here's the bait: Just because *you* like it doesn't mean that ME2 doesn't suck.

Here are some more threads for you to verbally "******" to:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/69778


social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/637060


and seeing as you've not littered this one with sweeping rhetoric yet...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/707804

Enjoy yourself.

<3

Because if I'm going to argue pointlessly with people whose opinions are guaranteed to not change and ultimately not matter, I'd rather condense it to one topic.

Really. As much as I can defend it (Not because I wish to suck off Bioware under some misaimed kind of corperate loyalty, but because I see nothing wrong with the changes), and as much as you all can ****** and moan about it, it really doesn't matter. At all. I'm doing this because I enjoy argueing, I can only assume you're doing it to vent.

[Darth_Shizz]

Lehanna wrote...

Because if I'm going to argue pointlessly with people whose opinions are guaranteed to not change and ultimately not matter, I'd rather condense it to one topic.

Really. As much as I can defend it (Not because I wish to suck off Bioware under some misaimed kind of corperate loyalty, but because I see nothing wrong with the changes), and as much as you all can ****** and moan about it, it really doesn't matter. At all. I'm doing this because I enjoy argueing, I can only assume you're doing it to vent.

It was aimed at the people complaining about the changes, rather than you ;p By all means, do what you're doing. It saves me from having to.

[Lehanna]

Ahh, so you were hoping to set me loose on the whiners in other threads. You cheeky bastard =P

[Darth_Shizz]

Lehanna wrote...

Ahh, so you were hoping to set me loose on the whiners in other threads. You cheeky bastard =P

I was actually just recommending the other forums to those complaining. I figure they enjoy that sort of thing...complaining endlessly and sounding like little girls as they do it. In a strange sort of way, I was actually being incredibly friendly 

Still, adding to the discussion in other topics can never hurt.

[Lehanna]

What I really don't get is what they hope to accomplish with their complaints. The game is in the stores, done, ready to go.

[Zulu_DFA]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Lehanna wrote...

Good to see that, hours later, we're still hammering the same rhetoric continually as if no one hadn't already rolled through and wrecked all of your logical fallacies.

Also tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

Anything else to say?

OK here's the bait: Just because *you* like it doesn't mean that ME2 doesn't suck.

Here are some more threads for you to verbally "******" to:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/69778


social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/637060


and seeing as you've not littered this one with sweeping rhetoric yet...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/707804

Enjoy yourself.

<3

Never posted in those threads, because I sorta thought that all the dumbifications are a necessary evil, to draw more investments, to make a better game overall. And It simply didn't occur to me that they are not going to armor up properly Jacob, Miranda, SuZe, Thane, Gruntie, Samara, Garrus (no helmet), Mordin (no helmet), Zaeed (no helmet), that is 9/11 squadmates. With the remaining two probably mutually exclusive. Then I relized this. Right at this moment I'm full of disgust. Last time it happened when I watched Terminator 3. I haven't watched T4:Salvation and probably never will. They buried the series.

OK. I'll cope with that. I'll just have to play the game I hate. Thank you BioWare. Here is your $30.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:14 .

[Balek-Vriege]

Lehanna wrote...

What I really don't get is what they hope to accomplish with their complaints. The game is in the stores, done, ready to go.

The point is the impossible task of convincing people who don't care or think otherwise to actually care or agree with their point of view.  Which never actually happens.

That's why name calling and egos get mixed in for example suggesting people who disagree that characters look too social only like shooters and are kiddies trying to ruin their fun.  When in fact they could be more hardcore RPG fans who are more focused on base RPG ideals than having things which have been added to RPGs over time like simulation or shooter ruin or amplify their fun.

Then there are others who just like to debate and have good points why some of the social stuff doesn't work which is perfectly fine.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:15 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
The casey Hudson bit, Im assuming your referring to where he said you can unlock outfits via personal quest?

Who says thats the only one you can unlock?

Not gonna continue the argument any further though. I truthfully dont have an argument other than Bioware wouldnt and have not revealed everything to us.

also, im at the point where i feel that if you(not you personally, but most of the complainers in general) dont like where the series is going, cancel your pre-order, and find a new game.

About the complainers:
It's the ME1 complainers who made BioWare ditch the elevators.
It's the ME1 complainers who made BioWare ditch the variety of weapon manufacturers.
It's the ME1 complainers who made BioWare ditch skillbased lockpicking.
And it's the complainers (or so Casey Hudson wants us to believe) who made them ditch squadmatesl armor.

We, who were generally happy with ME1, were silent at best or, just like you "don't like - don't buy"-ed the ME1 complainers. But now it's time for us to complain: BioWare what have you done to a good game?

They said flat out that they removed the customization of the squads armor and made the customization(in both stats and appearance) to your own *far* more complex.  The squad is supposed to still get upgraded gear as you progress through the game, either level or research based.

Now personally, I liked the elevators, I hated the Mako, and I like the new weapon/decryption system.  As to squad armor, well, the people you're recruiting have their own opinions and have their own idea on what is suitable to wear in combat.  You might be team leader, but that doesn't mean anyone want you to hand them an armor suit they never trained in and expect them to know how to fight in it.  Imagine handing a rogue-type character a set of fullplate and expecting them to know how to fight in it.  They wouldn't, and you'd actually be reducing their effectiveness. 

Story-wise, it makes sense as long as they have some from of environment suit for hostile environments and vaccuum areas.

[altair 1987]

Niddy' wrote...

Loop Stricken wrote...

I assume because, with the new armour system, it would become a chore to micromanage twelve sets of armour.

Have you not seen all the variations of the armour that Shepard can choose from? How much more time comsuming would it be to allow you to choose the look of squadmates from the bank already in place?

well it is a RPG after all and traditionally one spends quite some time equipying his(her) characters' gear

[sticks435]

I'm split on the issue. On one hand, ya it looks silly as hell having your squad mates fighting without armor but as others have said, who knows how the upgrades and such work. Though the x-fire vid seems to indicate that you don't ever get proper armor.

On the other hand, everyone knows once you got the Predator or Colossus armor, it was all over, and everyone looked pretty much the same. Also, the way I see it, your baddass covert "special forces" or paramilitary as others have said, so why would you attract attention by wearing standard issue armor. It's kind of like the A-Team, they make due with what they have.

Modifié par sticks435, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:45 .

[Andaius20]

I'm guessing down the line, special "outfits" that armor up the companions will be made if the outcry is loud enough. It' seems easy enough for them to do. With each gaining a tailor made unique suit of "proper" armor.

[Itkovian]

The NPCs that in ME1 would have used Light Armour, now wear what seems to be clothing or uniforms as part of their outfits, and the others wear armour (Jacob, Grunt, Legion, Garrus).



Quite simply, they ditched light armour, which merely looked like skin-tight jumpsuits anyway. Presumably they have portable shield generators... those don't necessarily require an armour. I don't see any problem with this.



Itkovian

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Lehanna wrote...

For one, being able to outfit each squad member in different armor cuts down on visual personality. It was also a giant pain in the ass. I can't remember how many times I went wandering around the universe's stupid stores looking for good armor that didn't look like a bright yellow traffic coordinator suit. If you try to keep all the squad members in multiple armors, you'd end up with a Tali situation, where all their armors are just stupid recolors of the original article of clothing/armor. Actually, that drove me nuts in ME1. Same armor, just retextured.

Second of all, to the guy who keeps saying 'SPEHS MAHRINE' over and over, I ask you: How many of the squad members are 'Space Marines'? Ash is gone, so... Shepard. Just Shepard.

For that issue not just Shepard. Jacob Taylor too. No assault rifle for him I can cope with, But where is his armor, at least a stupid one like Ashley's (Phoenix it was called, if I remember correctly). Then, there is Garrus, who is supposed to have serve in the turian army. he is almost OK in his blue armor, yet he seems to accidentally forget his helmet on Omega, and never miss it. No wonder we had beaten such an army in the 1st Contact War. Then in ME1 Liara wasn't a space marine either, still she used a hardsuit quite effectively. I guess they can make easy to accomodate, user-friendy hardsuits there in 2180s, that don't require lots of training.

And then, if our so BADASS squaddies can't act like space marines, they have no business on a mission in the uncharted space. Let them stick to their petty crime and mundane problems groundside.

Cerbin aep Dol Blathanna wrote...

This. Also: Space Marine is
wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/96/MkVIII_Errant.jpg
This.

Yes, good picture. It's WarHammer 40K, I guess. They did a good job in implementing the concept of the Space Marine into strategy games. And it's an old concept rooting to Robert Heinleins' "Starship Troopers", where they were not even called "marines", but since then in the sci-fi the idea of a soldier in space warfare was inseparably linked to the powered armor concept. Which was brilliantly reflected in ME1. And now they are ditching this brilliance.

You keep talking about helmets.  The *only* time the helmet is on by default in ME1 was when you were on Eden Prime or in a hazardous environment.  Otherwise, there was no helmet.  Even Shepard doesn't wear his helmet in any of the ME2 videos without being in vaccuum.  Garrus will do what he didn in ME1, slip on a helmet when necessary.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

verskk wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Lehanna wrote...


You may have a point on Jacob, but the vast majority of our new 'Squad Members' aren't true soldiers. Grunt is one, by far, and he's obviously is a big thick suit of armor. Thane is an Assassin, those aren't known for being big on using armor. SuZe's a test subject/convict, Miranda is more like a Naval Officer than anything else, Mordin is... obvious, Garrus wears armor. I could go on.

If our so BADASS squaddies can't act like space marines (that is fight in a hardsuit), they have no business on a mission in the uncharted space. Let them stick to their petty crime and mundane problems groundside.[/

Leave them then. Don't recruit anybody who isn't exactly what you like. You're allowed to do that, you know.

Like BioWare gives a choice. We have only these comicbookish characters. And with ME1 they did a heluva job hooking me up in the series. I thought I'm already done with videogames, when my eye catched ME1. Hell they should include a readme.txt with a note: We make this a good sci-fi game, but be advised that with #2 we are going to adree the shooter crowd, the low IQ minority, and tightly intertwine our production with Dark Horse.

So, I think I'll do better. I'll recruit all of them, and just make sure they all die in the end. Except Legion. It looks OK so far.

Ah yes... because someone that enjoys an RPG cannot possibly enjoy playing a shooter as well and all people that do play shooters must be braindead.  Love the RPG elitists.  I've been playing D&D and RPG's my whole life, but because I happen to have the skills and ability to find action-packed shooters enjoayble as well, suddenly my IQ must have dropped 60 points.  Please.

[CmdrFenix83]

steve1945 wrote...

See Verskk Caseys post you quoted pisses me off.

That way of thinking is retarded
"It was onerous so we took it out"
Thats stupid. If somethings complicated but not a main thing in the game it should be left in for those who want it. Anyone who dislikes the managing of squadmates can just not partake in the managing of squadmates.

I really really like ME2. Its a great game. But its giving me RE4 feelings. Like its a wonderful game overall but its done away with things that made me fall in love with the original. Its like having a railroading DM replace your open ended DM. Both expierences can be excellent if handeled right but railroading gets boring. ME2 has been streamlined and streamlining a RPG shouldn't be done because it limits player choice. Which is all what a RPG is about. Story, action, play thats all secondary. What the player WANTS to do is what the RPG should reflect.

RE4 was hailed as one of the greatest games ever, and is regarded as the best game in the series.  I don't understand your point.  Comparing ME2's innovations to RE4's is a huge amount of praise.