108 réponses à ce sujet

[Apophis2412]

Valmy wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

They were never really evil. They were just dicks.

Tell that to the rest of my unit on Akuze.

That action was indeed morally questionable. But since we don't know what the results of that project was we can't say if Cerberus actions on Akuze were justified or not.

On the whole Cerberus goals are not justifiable. They want to make humanity the dominant force in the galaxy and the other races either their slaves or servants. Also they frequently use methods that are downright reprehensible and stupid and often used when much better and 'right' methods are avaiable.

I also doubt that everyone who is a member of Cerberus is an insane terrorist. Humans have always feard the unknown and perhaps some people got so overwhelmed by First Conact that they joined Cerberus to feel safe.

Others might have joined because Cerberus is the only organisation that wants to impvrove humanity's standing/power in the galaxy. Particulary after the the events of ME1 the small Alliance Navy is either kissing up to the Citadel Council or leading the council. Both entail humanity using it's military resources to protect people who have never done anything in return. Why use your fleet to protect the Elcor, Hanar e.a., when they have never helped you in return?

[Azazel005]

I agree that cerberus fail to fall into the genuinely evil, at least the moustache twirling kind. They have a "whatever it takes" attitude. They believe any sacrifices they make a necessary. However they justifiy this it will be your character that will have to make those justifications in the long run, you need them, there intel and there tech for the moment.



Whether you feel their ends justify their means I trust will be left to decisions in the game (hopefully).

[DoctorPringles]

This thread is just popping with spoilers. Seriously guys, keep them out of the general discussion.

[JudgeQwerty]

Vaulin Faust wrote...

JudgeQwerty wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

 Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.
Evil, no. Renegade, very much so. 

Cerberus doesn't pretend to be some holier than thou organization of skittles & gum drops. It knows what it does is brutal, unethical, and often times callous, but they  understand that ethics and an unwillingness to do the 
unreprehensible for the greater good, ultimately retards progress.

I notice that you only just ify their mindset and not actually adress how their actions somewhow benefit humanity. They're responsible for more human deaths than the Geth.

I'm glad you're able to cite accurate statistics concerning Cerberus' activities in relation the geth, or anyone. Regardless, Cerberus' objectives all point to humanity's ascension. Not a single one doesn't. 

But again, Cerberus isn't afraid to sacrifice humans or aliens to in the end push humanity forward. They'll break the 10 to improve the 1000. The needs of the many outweigh those of the few. 

The geth attacked Eden Prime and Feros, in both cases targeting objects of interest and not the actual inhabitants. Cerberus' attempts at protecting humanity have wiped out Akuze, Chasca, Edolus, and most of the Styx Theta cluster. They're either amoral sadists or madly incompetent.

[Apophis2412]

JudgeQwerty wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

JudgeQwerty wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

 Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.
Evil, no. Renegade, very much so. 

Cerberus doesn't pretend to be some holier than thou organization of skittles & gum drops. It knows what it does is brutal, unethical, and often times callous, but they  understand that ethics and an unwillingness to do the 
unreprehensible for the greater good, ultimately retards progress.

I notice that you only just ify their mindset and not actually adress how their actions somewhow benefit humanity. They're responsible for more human deaths than the Geth.

I'm glad you're able to cite accurate statistics concerning Cerberus' activities in relation the geth, or anyone. Regardless, Cerberus' objectives all point to humanity's ascension. Not a single one doesn't. 

But again, Cerberus isn't afraid to sacrifice humans or aliens to in the end push humanity forward. They'll break the 10 to improve the 1000. The needs of the many outweigh those of the few. 

The geth attacked Eden Prime and Feros, in both cases targeting objects of interest and not the actual inhabitants. Cerberus' attempts at protecting humanity have wiped out Akuze, Chasca, Edolus, and most of the Styx Theta cluster. They're either amoral sadists or madly incompetent.

They were there only for the beacon and the Thorian, yet they killed a lot of civilians to complete their goals.

Cerberus did not kill of entire colonies. At most they killed of 10-50 people.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:11 .

[TheAnima]

Vaulin Faust wrote...

 Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.
Evil, no. Renegade, very much so. 

Cerberus doesn't pretend to be some holier than thou organization of skittles & gum drops. It knows what it does is brutal, unethical, and often times callous, but they  understand that ethics and an unwillingness to do the 
unreprehensible for the greater good, ultimately retards progress.

Cerberus would have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in WW2, not because they're mean or evil, but b/c the projected casualties of an amphibious assault on mainland Japan were almost a million, and that the death of 200k civilians was an acceptable loss to end the fighting quickly.

So yeah, like this guy said, they're completely evil.

(Why yes, I am interpreting what he said without caring about this opinion.)

Modifié par TheAnima, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:17 .

[JudgeQwerty]

Apophis2412 wrote...

They were there only for the beacon and the Thorian, yet they killed a lot of civilians to complete their goals.

Cerberus did not kill of entire colonies. At most they killed of 10-50 people.

50 soldiers on Akuze + every Akuze colonist

The human inhabitants of Chasca (Unknown number)

Admiral Kahoku, Kahoku's marines, and every other poor soul who investigated that signal before Shephard arrived.

The Styx Theta Cluster and probably a few areas in Arghos Rho since the Rachni ae described as boarding ships wherever they can.

I'll admit I'm probably downplaying Geth casualties, but at least they're not advertising themselves as the guardians of humanity's survival.

[ic1pher]

Cerberus just does what is necessary for the human race to prosper. For that they are considered evil. Whatever. Even if you don't care about Cerberus, Cerberus still cares about you.

[EJon]

DoctorPringles wrote...

This thread is just popping with spoilers. Seriously guys, keep them out of the general discussion.

If you don't want spoilers, then its time you left. There are only a few days until release, an the game has been leaked already. Deal with it.

[FlintlockJazz]

Apophis2412 wrote...

They were there only for the beacon and the Thorian, yet they killed a lot of civilians to complete their goals.

Cerberus did not kill of entire colonies. At most they killed of 10-50 people.

Um, yes they have.  They have killed off entire settlements.  I suggest you read up:

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus

[DoctorPringles]

EJon wrote...

DoctorPringles wrote...

This thread is just popping with spoilers. Seriously guys, keep them out of the general discussion.

If you don't want spoilers, then its time you left. There are only a few days until release, an the game has been leaked already. Deal with it.

Read the thread at the top of the forum. No spoilers. I'd say events from Mass Effect 1 regarding Theron and several other side quests count as spoilers.

[Apophis2412]

EJon wrote...

DoctorPringles wrote...

This thread is just popping with spoilers. Seriously guys, keep them out of the general discussion.

If you don't want spoilers, then its time you left. There are only a few days until release, an the game has been leaked already. Deal with it.

So far I've only seen ME1 spoilers, not ME2 spoilers.

[Medhia Nox]

Didn't read the entire thread - but yes, I am sure they are still going to be evil.



However, they're also complex. Like any good (meaning - written well) fascist group - they are evil only to "other" or, evil to "us" if it can be justified as "for our own good."



The Illusive Man is afriad.



1) He fears the aliens that had a few thousand years head start on "conquering" the universe.



2) He fears the Reapers who threaten to wipe his species out.



3) He fears biotics (book topics) - this is a sub-catagory of #1. Humans didn't have biotics - now he wants to catch up and supercede the other races.



4) And now, he fears the Collectors - possibly a sub-catagory of #2.



And because he is such a fearful man - he needs to exert control. He manipulates, dominates, and when he can't do that - he destroys.



This means that he is "Good" to humanity. He wants to see humanity rise up - and control the other species. It's likely the only way he would be able to turn the lights off and get to sleep at night instead of shivering fearful in the dark afraid of "other".



So - he'll help human babies, he'll cure human diseases, he'll "Fight for the Lost" because it's human, he'll wage war against all of mankinds enemies - and he'll be selfless to a point. In the end, it will always come down to what the Illusive Man fears. If his personal fears overpower his fear of what might happen to humanity - that's when he'll show his true colors.



At least, that's how I see him.



He's still evil in the end - and the last thing the Illusive Man will fear before he dies? My Shepard.

[Apophis2412]

ic1pher wrote...

Cerberus just does what is necessary for the human race to prosper. For that they are considered evil. Whatever. Even if you don't care about Cerberus, Cerberus still cares about you.

Until your're either considered expendable or when you're in their way.

[TheAnima]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Didn't read the entire thread - but yes, I am sure they are still going to be evil.

However, they're also complex. Like any good (meaning - written well) fascist group - they are evil only to "other" or, evil to "us" if it can be justified as "for our own good."

The Illusive Man is afriad.

1) He fears the aliens that had a few thousand years head start on "conquering" the universe.

2) He fears the Reapers who threaten to wipe his species out.

3) He fears biotics (book topics) - this is a sub-catagory of #1. Humans didn't have biotics - now he wants to catch up and supercede the other races.

4) And now, he fears the Collectors - possibly a sub-catagory of #2.

And because he is such a fearful man - he needs to exert control. He manipulates, dominates, and when he can't do that - he destroys.

This means that he is "Good" to humanity. He wants to see humanity rise up - and control the other species. It's likely the only way he would be able to turn the lights off and get to sleep at night instead of shivering fearful in the dark afraid of "other".

So - he'll help human babies, he'll cure human diseases, he'll "Fight for the Lost" because it's human, he'll wage war against all of mankinds enemies - and he'll be selfless to a point. In the end, it will always come down to what the Illusive Man fears. If his personal fears overpower his fear of what might happen to humanity - that's when he'll show his true colors.

At least, that's how I see him.

He's still evil in the end - and the last thing the Illusive Man will fear before he dies? My Shepard.

This post if full of truth and win.

[DoctorPringles]

Apophis2412 wrote...

EJon wrote...

DoctorPringles wrote...

This thread is just popping with spoilers. Seriously guys, keep them out of the general discussion.

If you don't want spoilers, then its time you left. There are only a few days until release, an the game has been leaked already. Deal with it.

So far I've only seen ME1 spoilers, not ME2 spoilers.

This isn't an ME2 forum. It's for both games.

[EJon]

Apophis2412 wrote...

ic1pher wrote...

Cerberus just does what is necessary for the human race to prosper. For that they are considered evil. Whatever. Even if you don't care about Cerberus, Cerberus still cares about you.

Until your're either considered expendable or when you're in their way.

Thats the way it is in real life also. For example the U.S. Military, they'll do whatever they can to protect you, but if your in a situation where its too risky or dangerous, your considered expendable. Thats the life of service.

[Apophis2412]

EJon wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

ic1pher wrote...

Cerberus just does what is necessary for the human race to prosper. For that they are considered evil. Whatever. Even if you don't care about Cerberus, Cerberus still cares about you.

Until your're either considered expendable or when you're in their way.

Thats the way it is in real life also. For example the U.S. Military, they'll do whatever they can to protect you, but if your in a situation where its too risky or dangerous, your considered expendable. Thats the life of service.

Yes, both organisations can be compared to one another. Both needlesly sacrifice their soldiers, because they think that they are threathened.

[TheAnima]

Apophis2412 wrote...

EJon wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

ic1pher wrote...

Cerberus just does what is necessary for the human race to prosper. For that they are considered evil. Whatever. Even if you don't care about Cerberus, Cerberus still cares about you.

Until your're either considered expendable or when you're in their way.

Thats the way it is in real life also. For example the U.S. Military, they'll do whatever they can to protect you, but if your in a situation where its too risky or dangerous, your considered expendable. Thats the life of service.

Yes, both organisations can be compared to one another. Both needlesly sacrifice their soldiers, because they think that they are threathened.

Agreed. Although I think Cerberus is a bit more in the wrong, if only because they have better technology to be in the wrong with.

[Corpse Mauler]

Not to shatter anyone's world perceptions here, but has anyone stopped to ask whether or not Humanity is evil?

[FlintlockJazz]

TheAnima wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Didn't read the entire thread - but yes, I am sure they are still going to be evil.

However, they're also complex. Like any good (meaning - written well) fascist group - they are evil only to "other" or, evil to "us" if it can be justified as "for our own good."

The Illusive Man is afriad.

1) He fears the aliens that had a few thousand years head start on "conquering" the universe.

2) He fears the Reapers who threaten to wipe his species out.

3) He fears biotics (book topics) - this is a sub-catagory of #1. Humans didn't have biotics - now he wants to catch up and supercede the other races.

4) And now, he fears the Collectors - possibly a sub-catagory of #2.

And because he is such a fearful man - he needs to exert control. He manipulates, dominates, and when he can't do that - he destroys.

This means that he is "Good" to humanity. He wants to see humanity rise up - and control the other species. It's likely the only way he would be able to turn the lights off and get to sleep at night instead of shivering fearful in the dark afraid of "other".

So - he'll help human babies, he'll cure human diseases, he'll "Fight for the Lost" because it's human, he'll wage war against all of mankinds enemies - and he'll be selfless to a point. In the end, it will always come down to what the Illusive Man fears. If his personal fears overpower his fear of what might happen to humanity - that's when he'll show his true colors.

At least, that's how I see him.

He's still evil in the end - and the last thing the Illusive Man will fear before he dies? My Shepard.

This post if full of truth and win.

I support this assertion of truth and win.

[TheAnima]

Corpse Mauler wrote...

Not to shatter anyone's world perceptions here, but has anyone stopped to ask whether or not Humanity is evil?

Humanity is not an organization, it is a term to cover a entire species of sentient beings who have individual and group thoughts and beliefs. The idea that humanity is evil is popular in some fiction, but ultimately immature in reality.

[JudgeQwerty]

Corpse Mauler wrote...

Not to shatter anyone's world perceptions here, but has anyone stopped to ask whether or not Humanity is evil?

Tempting thought, but you still have folks like Kaidan, Anderson, and plenty of random humans who have no problem with aliens. But certainly, the vast majority of humans can't imagine making nice with the bug-eyed aliens.

Modifié par JudgeQwerty, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:41 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Corpse Mauler wrote...

Not to shatter anyone's world perceptions here, but has anyone stopped to ask whether or not Humanity is evil?

That is actually a good point, and actually makes sense with all the 'humanity is the greatest' we had shoved down our throats in the first one.  I wonder if ME3 will actually be about saving the rest of the galaxy from the human plague...

[Apophis2412]

Corpse Mauler wrote...

Not to shatter anyone's world perceptions here, but has anyone stopped to ask whether or not Humanity is evil?

Humanity is neutral. There are dicks, saints and everything in between.