108 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

The "Is Humanity Evi?l" a complex question.



Keeping it simple (maybe too simple) I believe that humanity seems evil because we are the only species by which to compare the trait(s) we have identified as "Evil". The vast majority of humanity do not believe animals capable of "Good" and "Evil" - they are animals, and beyond such notions.



Good - is often defined as "What works well." or "What is healthy." and we know nature works perfectly without us - so, many people consider it "A Good". We often judge ourselves by the "Good" of the Universe around us. "Do I work?" "Am I healthy?" - it's far more complex than that (and I'm not stating anything as fact). But I think that's an answer in a nutshell.



---



In Mass Effect, I think humanity is very close to "Evil Species".



Most humans in Mass Effect are either 1) Filler. They don't do much of anything - let alone anything that is "Good" or "Evil". 2) Evil - now, I also put things like "arrogance" and "fear" into an "Evil Trait" catagory. Any given trait doesn't instantly make someone evil - it's more complex than that.



Now, Shepard can be good. I believe that Emily Wong is an example of Good. Anderson is good.



So, we have powerful examples of good, but the vast majority of humanity is definately questionable. And so it should be. The question of "Are we the real bad guys." is an excellent one.



I'd LOVE a story years from now in the Mass Effect universe where I play another species fighting against a growing human Imperium (so long as it isn't an Asari - I seriously dislike that invention).

[blades11]

whats with all the cereberus hate around here? yeah they kill and experiment on people, but most modern day countries have done and continue to do so in some degree. Its a matter of doing whats right - since that term is subjective - but this perception of evil is just an adjective for a few actions in the extreme

[TheAnima]

blades11 wrote...

whats with all the cereberus hate around here? yeah they kill and experiment on people, but most modern day countries have done and continue to do so in some degree. Its a matter of doing whats right - since that term is subjective - but this perception of evil is just an adjective for a few actions in the extreme

If by most modern day countries you mean "Most backwards countries, most countries from the last century, and America" then you're right.

[Medhia Nox]

So, if I decide that killing off your family is "right" and "for the greater good" - you would get behind that and support me?



It's easy to say: "People do what's necissary." when neither of us have been part of a pogrom, Inquisition, genocide, or "experiment". All of these events were done: "For the Greater Good."

[jarrod32]

What kind of joke thread is this?

Categorize something as evil and good is a childish, naive way of seeing things.

God, these simplistic reasonnings are the cause of many genocides!

[Vaulin Faust]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Didn't read the entire thread - but yes, I am sure they are still going to be evil.

However, they're also complex. Like any good (meaning - written well) fascist group - they are evil only to "other" or, evil to "us" if it can be justified as "for our own good."

The Illusive Man is afriad.

1) He fears the aliens that had a few thousand years head start on "conquering" the universe.

2) He fears the Reapers who threaten to wipe his species out.

3) He fears biotics (book topics) - this is a sub-catagory of #1. Humans didn't have biotics - now he wants to catch up and supercede the other races.

4) And now, he fears the Collectors - possibly a sub-catagory of #2.

And because he is such a fearful man - he needs to exert control. He manipulates, dominates, and when he can't do that - he destroys.

This means that he is "Good" to humanity. He wants to see humanity rise up - and control the other species. It's likely the only way he would be able to turn the lights off and get to sleep at night instead of shivering fearful in the dark afraid of "other".

So - he'll help human babies, he'll cure human diseases, he'll "Fight for the Lost" because it's human, he'll wage war against all of mankinds enemies - and he'll be selfless to a point. In the end, it will always come down to what the Illusive Man fears. If his personal fears overpower his fear of what might happen to humanity - that's when he'll show his true colors.

At least, that's how I see him.

He's still evil in the end - and the last thing the Illusive Man will fear before he dies? My Shepard.

There's no basis for attributing his motives to fear. 

Council races want us to expand into the traverse, but if we ever run into trouble, they tell us to figure it out on our own.  Cerberus doesn't fear xenos; they just aren't going to help move us forward. It's up to us.

Fearing the reapers; hardly. If you knew a storm was coming, labelling the people who went to buy wood to board up their houses and stock up food as fearful is just inane. They're not intrusting humanity's future in the slothful  nature of politics when there's a clear & present danger to be addressed. 

Biotics are a weapon. Plain & Simple. At first, we didn't have them, now we do. It's the same as any arms race. No one wants to be behind. 

Collector's are halting & deleting human colonization in the various systems. The Alliance isn't doing anything about it, the council doesn't care. Again, a clear & present danger to humanity's efforts in the traverse and further more its existence. 

The Council is skeptical, indecisive, and in a lot of ways self-serving. If it doesn't effect their balance of power, it's not their problem. Cerberus doesn't pretend to care about everyone and then turn its back on the people who need it. It's true to itself.

You're saying that all of the objectives that Cerberus and the Illusive man put forth are really rouses for his own person fears. You're also saying that if humanity itself outlives its usefulness, that the Illusive man will turn a blind eye to its plight, and abandon it. I don't find any of these things to be true. But all these things are opinion. We can agree to disagree on the Illusive Man's true intention.

[blades11]

TheAnima wrote...

blades11 wrote...

whats with all the cereberus hate around here? yeah they kill and experiment on people, but most modern day countries have done and continue to do so in some degree. Its a matter of doing whats right - since that term is subjective - but this perception of evil is just an adjective for a few actions in the extreme

If by most modern day countries you mean "Most backwards countries, most countries from the last century, and America" then you're right.

But that doesnt mean that these countires are evil right? Looking out for yourself at the expense of others is selfish, but not evil. Same With Cerberus. The Term "The greater good" really comes down to whats the greater good for yo, not the rest of the world/galaxy in this case

Modifié par blades11, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:02 .

[TheAnima]

jarrod32 wrote...

What kind of joke thread is this?
Categorize something as evil and good is a childish, naive way of seeing things.
God, these simplistic reasonnings are the cause of many genocides!

On the contrary, categorizing something as grey has caused many genocides, a great many horrible things were done 'for the Greater Good'.

[Medhia Nox]

Vaulin Faust -

- Have you read the books at all? It's the first look at the Illusive Man.

There are two points you made that are refuted in the books. And, to my knowledge, they are "canon".

----

And I would never conduct my life in "Grey".

I have found that people who live in "grey" simply do so because examining their lives and improving themselves is too much work. Better to live in: "Oh, but I'm not EVIL - so I'll continue my self-destructive lifestyle." 

*shrugs* I don't care how others live. Just my perspective.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:03 .

[TheAnima]

blades11 wrote...

TheAnima wrote...

blades11 wrote...

whats with all the cereberus hate around here? yeah they kill and experiment on people, but most modern day countries have done and continue to do so in some degree. Its a matter of doing whats right - since that term is subjective - but this perception of evil is just an adjective for a few actions in the extreme

If by most modern day countries you mean "Most backwards countries, most countries from the last century, and America" then you're right.

but that doesnt mean that these countires are evil right? looking out for yourself at the expense of others is selfish, but not evil.

Selfish and evil are the same thing in most belief systems. Perhaps you should study philosophy.

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

SnowHeart1 wrote...
I think Cerberus's actions in ME1 are difficult to describe in any way but "evil". 

I tend to think that these will be explained as rogue Cerberus opperatives actions (and thus caught Shepherds and other's attention).  There are plenty of historical accounts of US and other "good guys" militaries performing fairly attrocious acts that were not the fault of their respective countries leaders (tho, the responsibility still stops at their desk, IMO).

[Returnpolicy]

Cerberus = morally bankrupt organisation - my Femshep will use any opportunity she gets to dismantle it.

[ic1pher]

Apophis2412 wrote...

ic1pher wrote...

Cerberus just does what is necessary for the human race to prosper. For that they are considered evil. Whatever. Even if you don't care about Cerberus, Cerberus still cares about you.

Until your're either considered expendable or when you're in their way.

(OOC: RPing as my character... I'm not 100% on the canon but I think this is close enough)
That's just dissident propaganda. What humanity needs is a spearhead. Someone to make sure that the aliens don't take control of our lives and the lives of our children. Alliance Navy are just weak pandering fools with their antiquated morals and too rigid sense of right and wrong. Cerberus sees those things as serious weaknesses. Weaknesses we can't afford if we don't want to end up stomped on by the older and more powerful alien races. If you really think that any of the council races will help us on our hour of need, you must be seriously naive and deluded.

I wish I could make people see how the universe actually works to remove the blinds from their eyes, but alas, I must be content in merely doing my duty.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just part of the best, last line of defence you got, and I truly give a damn of the humanity.

Join us, to make a better future for us all!

[Vaulin Faust]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Vaulin Faust -

- Have you read the books at all? It's the first look at the Illusive Man.

There are two points you made that are refuted in the books. And, to my knowledge, they are "canon". 

I haven't. Please point out these 2 points I made which have been found incorrect based upon the canon put forth in the novels. Also, if you'd elaborate more specifically as to how they're refuted, I'd appreciate it.

Modifié par Vaulin Faust, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:10 .

[altair 1987]

Ronin Zakath wrote...

Cerberus is firmly in moral limbo

They conduct research to further humanity's role in the galaxy, yet many humans die in those experiments. Sacrificing the few for the many. Very renegade. Good for humans as a whole, bad for every other race.

If the Collectors were abducting Turians, do you think Cerberus would have bothered? Would they even have bothered resurrecting Shep and constructing the SR-2?

Their goals aren't really wholesome and their methods even less so. They are self-righteous. It's a very renegade-oriented group.

  


for the matter how did they even know where to find shepard,and how come he was in such a condition that he would only feel grateful for the lazarus project, i dont know but what are the odds

[Apophis2412]

TheAnima wrote...

jarrod32 wrote...

What kind of joke thread is this?
Categorize something as evil and good is a childish, naive way of seeing things.
God, these simplistic reasonnings are the cause of many genocides!

On the contrary, categorizing something as grey has caused many genocides, a great many horrible things were done 'for the Greater Good'.

While I think that soldiers and innocent civilians should sometimes be sacrificed during war for the great good, one should only do this as a last resort, when there are no other options avaiable.

[TheAnima]

Apophis2412 wrote...

TheAnima wrote...

jarrod32 wrote...

What kind of joke thread is this?
Categorize something as evil and good is a childish, naive way of seeing things.
God, these simplistic reasonnings are the cause of many genocides!

On the contrary, categorizing something as grey has caused many genocides, a great many horrible things were done 'for the Greater Good'.

While I think that soldiers and innocent civilians should sometimes be sacrificed during war for the great good, one should only do this as a last resort, when there are no other options avaiable.

That merely makes it the lesser of two evils. If you have a choice between two evil actions, you take the one that does the least damage, doesn't make it any less evil.

[Vaulin Faust]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

 Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.
Evil, no. Renegade, very much so. 

Cerberus doesn't pretend to be some holier than thou organization of skittles & gum drops. It knows what it does is brutal, unethical, and often times callous, but they  understand that ethics and an unwillingness to do the 
unreprehensible for the greater good, ultimately retards progress.

Cerberus would have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in WW2, not because they're mean or evil, but b/c the projected casualties of an amphibious assault on mainland Japan were almost a million, and that the death of 200k civilians was an acceptable loss to end the fighting quickly.

So you think performing experiments on humans against their will is not evil?  Your justification for those experiments is the same used by the ****s.  Also, does Cerberus act on behalf of a elected government or with the consent of an elected government?  By what right do they have to take these actions and to speak for humanity?  Spectres at least were acting with the consent and support of the Council, these guys don't  have that and yet think they have the right to allow the murder your entire family just for the sake of research, and will do it.

I'm going to look forward to see how my Sole Survivor Shepard is going to act in ME2.

I honestly hope you're not justifying anyone's actions, good or bad, beneficial or deletrious,  b/c they're sanctioned by a government, tyrannical or righteous.

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaulin Faust wrote...

There's no basis for attributing his motives to fear. 

Council races want us to expand into the traverse, but if we ever run into trouble, they tell us to figure it out on our own.  Cerberus doesn't fear xenos; they just aren't going to help move us forward. It's up to us.

Fearing the reapers; hardly. If you knew a storm was coming, labelling the people who went to buy wood to board up their houses and stock up food as fearful is just inane. They're not intrusting humanity's future in the slothful  nature of politics when there's a clear & present danger to be addressed.

Actually, boarding up your house because a storm is coming is indeed due to fear.  The whole point of fear is that it ensures self-preservation, and being fearful is good, while being fearless is bad.  A fearful man can still have the courage to overcome that fear, while one without fear will make stupid choices.  It is probably most apt to say that the Illusive Man is fearful of alien intentions as he perceives them a threat, and it is also apt to say that heis courageous for taking them on as a result.

[Apophis2412]

ic1pher wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

ic1pher wrote...

Cerberus just does what is necessary for the human race to prosper. For that they are considered evil. Whatever. Even if you don't care about Cerberus, Cerberus still cares about you.

Until your're either considered expendable or when you're in their way.

(OOC: RPing as my character... I'm not 100% on the canon but I think this is close enough)
That's just dissident propaganda. What humanity needs is a spearhead. Someone to make sure that the aliens don't take control of our lives and the lives of our children. Alliance Navy are just weak pandering fools with their antiquated morals and too rigid sense of right and wrong. Cerberus sees those things as serious weaknesses. Weaknesses we can't afford if we don't want to end up stomped on by the older and more powerful alien races. If you really think that any of the council races will help us on our hour of need, you must be seriously naive and deluded.

I wish I could make people see how the universe actually works to remove the blinds from their eyes, but alas, I must be content in merely doing my duty.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just part of the best, last line of defence you got, and I truly give a damn of the humanity.

Join us, to make a better future for us all!

You sound like the people who are against globalisation or those "White Supremacy" nutjobs.

[TheAnima]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

There's no basis for attributing his motives to fear. 

Council races want us to expand into the traverse, but if we ever run into trouble, they tell us to figure it out on our own.  Cerberus doesn't fear xenos; they just aren't going to help move us forward. It's up to us.

Fearing the reapers; hardly. If you knew a storm was coming, labelling the people who went to buy wood to board up their houses and stock up food as fearful is just inane. They're not intrusting humanity's future in the slothful  nature of politics when there's a clear & present danger to be addressed.

Actually, boarding up your house because a storm is coming is indeed due to fear.  The whole point of fear is that it ensures self-preservation, and being fearful is good, while being fearless is bad.  A fearful man can still have the courage to overcome that fear, while one without fear will make stupid choices.  It is probably most apt to say that the Illusive Man is fearful of alien intentions as he perceives them a threat, and it is also apt to say that heis courageous for taking them on as a result.

It's also apt to point out that many of his fears, and reactions (although not all) are unreasonable.

[Apophis2412]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

There's no basis for attributing his motives to fear. 

Council races want us to expand into the traverse, but if we ever run into trouble, they tell us to figure it out on our own.  Cerberus doesn't fear xenos; they just aren't going to help move us forward. It's up to us.

Fearing the reapers; hardly. If you knew a storm was coming, labelling the people who went to buy wood to board up their houses and stock up food as fearful is just inane. They're not intrusting humanity's future in the slothful  nature of politics when there's a clear & present danger to be addressed.

Actually, boarding up your house because a storm is coming is indeed due to fear.  The whole point of fear is that it ensures self-preservation, and being fearful is good, while being fearless is bad.  A fearful man can still have the courage to overcome that fear, while one without fear will make stupid choices.  It is probably most apt to say that the Illusive Man is fearful of alien intentions as he perceives them a threat, and it is also apt to say that heis courageous for taking them on as a result.

TIM's actions are only 'courageous'if his fear is correct. Are the other species really a threat?

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaulin Faust wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

 Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.
Evil, no. Renegade, very much so. 

Cerberus doesn't pretend to be some holier than thou organization of skittles & gum drops. It knows what it does is brutal, unethical, and often times callous, but they  understand that ethics and an unwillingness to do the 
unreprehensible for the greater good, ultimately retards progress.

Cerberus would have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in WW2, not because they're mean or evil, but b/c the projected casualties of an amphibious assault on mainland Japan were almost a million, and that the death of 200k civilians was an acceptable loss to end the fighting quickly.

So you think performing experiments on humans against their will is not evil?  Your justification for those experiments is the same used by the ****s.  Also, does Cerberus act on behalf of a elected government or with the consent of an elected government?  By what right do they have to take these actions and to speak for humanity?  Spectres at least were acting with the consent and support of the Council, these guys don't  have that and yet think they have the right to allow the murder your entire family just for the sake of research, and will do it.

I'm going to look forward to see how my Sole Survivor Shepard is going to act in ME2.

I honestly hope you're not justifying anyone's actions, good or bad, beneficial or deletrious,  b/c they're sanctioned by a government, tyrannical or righteous.

Right...so a organisation that declares itself as acting in humanity's best interests and will kill people without any kind of sanction from anyone is not tyrannical itself then?  If I was to declare to everyone that I now speak for you and start making posts on your behalf would that be right?  Please don't try to add more into it, at no point did I say that anyone's actions is right, and you know it, so stop trying to stir things up.  In fact, my comparing Cerberus to the ****s should prove this point.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:18 .

[Vaulin Faust]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

There's no basis for attributing his motives to fear. 

Council races want us to expand into the traverse, but if we ever run into trouble, they tell us to figure it out on our own.  Cerberus doesn't fear xenos; they just aren't going to help move us forward. It's up to us.

Fearing the reapers; hardly. If you knew a storm was coming, labelling the people who went to buy wood to board up their houses and stock up food as fearful is just inane. They're not intrusting humanity's future in the slothful  nature of politics when there's a clear & present danger to be addressed.

Actually, boarding up your house because a storm is coming is indeed due to fear.  The whole point of fear is that it ensures self-preservation, and being fearful is good, while being fearless is bad.  A fearful man can still have the courage to overcome that fear, while one without fear will make stupid choices.  It is probably most apt to say that the Illusive Man is fearful of alien intentions as he perceives them a threat, and it is also apt to say that heis courageous for taking them on as a result.

That train of thought leads us on a slippery slope of all acts of self-preservation being a product of fear. Which I'll concede to fear being beneficial when it's not crippling, when it provokes meaningful and deliberate action.
I'd say the Illusive man feels that someone must be responsible for humanity's destiny, and he feels bound by a sense of duty, regardless of the odds or consequences, to act.

But like I've said. I haven't read the books. This is all conjecture & personal opinion, based upon the ME2 information that's been presented, and what little information garnered via ME1 & the wiki sites.