108 réponses à ce sujet

[Homebound]

I did EVERYTHING I could in the game to screw up Cerberus. And on top of that, they killed my entire squad in Akuze....Its ganna be an interesting meeting with the illusive man.

[FlintlockJazz]

Apophis2412 wrote...

TIM's actions are only 'courageous'if his fear is correct. Are the other species really a threat?

TheAnima wrote...
It's also apt to point out that many of his fears, and reactions (although not all) are unreasonable.

Oh, I'm not saying that his actions are correct, or even that what he fears is real, just that being fearful isn't such a bad thing and that being fearless means that you have nothing to be brave about.  And, while he may be wrong, many 'evil' people in history believed they were doing the right thing, which is why I have often never liked the evil path in many games, being more 'evil for evil's sake' than being an actual person.

[jarrod32]

TheAnima wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

TheAnima wrote...

jarrod32 wrote...

What kind of joke thread is this?
Categorize something as evil and good is a childish, naive way of seeing things.
God, these simplistic reasonnings are the cause of many genocides!

On the contrary, categorizing something as grey has caused many genocides, a great many horrible things were done 'for the Greater Good'.

While I think that soldiers and innocent civilians should sometimes be sacrificed during war for the great good, one should only do this as a last resort, when there are no other options avaiable.

That merely makes it the lesser of two evils. If you have a choice between two evil actions, you take the one that does the least damage, doesn't make it any less evil.

What i meant is that  if you categorize something as evil, and then you justify your actions by saying these guys are evil, so for greater good they must be neutraziled,  that makes you as bad, or even worse. In any war, wathever the motives, every bellligerent for both sides will find a way to justify itself and generally its for greater good. Having a greater amount of greynness can open your mind on your subjectivism!

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaulin Faust wrote...

That train of thought leads us on a slippery slope of all acts of self-preservation being a product of fear. Which I'll concede to fear being beneficial when it's not crippling, when it provokes meaningful and deliberate action.
I'd say the Illusive man feels that someone must be responsible for humanity's destiny, and he feels bound by a sense of duty, regardless of the odds or consequences, to act.

But like I've said. I haven't read the books. This is all conjecture & personal opinion, based upon the ME2 information that's been presented, and what little information garnered via ME1 & the wiki sites.

True, I was merely pointing out that to say he is fearful for humanity's safety would not be incorrect, just as you could say that Shepard being fearing Saren's intentions would not be incorrect.

[Vaulin Faust]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

 Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.
Evil, no. Renegade, very much so. 

Cerberus doesn't pretend to be some holier than thou organization of skittles & gum drops. It knows what it does is brutal, unethical, and often times callous, but they  understand that ethics and an unwillingness to do the 
unreprehensible for the greater good, ultimately retards progress.

Cerberus would have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in WW2, not because they're mean or evil, but b/c the projected casualties of an amphibious assault on mainland Japan were almost a million, and that the death of 200k civilians was an acceptable loss to end the fighting quickly.

So you think performing experiments on humans against their will is not evil?  Your justification for those experiments is the same used by the ****s.  Also, does Cerberus act on behalf of a elected government or with the consent of an elected government?  By what right do they have to take these actions and to speak for humanity?  Spectres at least were acting with the consent and support of the Council, these guys don't  have that and yet think they have the right to allow the murder your entire family just for the sake of research, and will do it.

I'm going to look forward to see how my Sole Survivor Shepard is going to act in ME2.

I honestly hope you're not justifying anyone's actions, good or bad, beneficial or deletrious,  b/c they're sanctioned by a government, tyrannical or righteous.

Right...so a organisation that declares itself as acting in humanity's best interests and will kill people without any kind of sanction from anyone is not tyrannical itself then?  If I was to declare to everyone that I now speak for you and start making posts on your behalf would that be right?  Please don't try to add more into it, at no point did I say that anyone's actions is right, and you know it, so stop trying to stir things up.  In fact, my comparing Cerberus to the ****s should prove this point.

If I was being attacked, or demeaned, or disenfranchised in some way, and I couldn't speak up for myself, and no one else seemed to care, and you did, would it be right? yes. I'm assuming those ****'s are refering to the National Socialist German Workers' party. And really, you're not far off, but the biggest difference between TIM and the leader of the workers' party, is that Hitler's goals were good(rebuild the economy, lower unemployment, bring the country back to the forefront on the world stage in art, science, engineering, etc), his methods poor (genocide), and all driven by his own personal hatred for people who basically kicked him out of art school, and that's just not TIMs story.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth; I was just pointing out that your main point earlier was that

Also, does Cerberus act on behalf of an elected government or with the consent of an elected government?  By what right do they have to take these actions and to speak for humanity?  Spectres at least were acting with the consent and support of the Council

And I was saying that it frankly doesn't matter who sanctions someone's actions. Whether they're reprehensible or not is based on the acts themselves, means & ends. Things like, "b/c I was under orders" or, "I was just doing my job" are in no way an excuse or justification.

Modifié par Vaulin Faust, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:32 .

[OmegaXI]

Cerberus=is a multi-headed hound usually three-headed which guards the gates of Hades, to prevent those evils from ever escaping.
Now please think about this, the name they took from human legends and myth is of a creature who guarded the gates of hades/hell. Cerberus represents  a side of humanity that isn't politically correct and they know it. They have  heard of other alien races  committing genocide on a scale humans never knew about before, and if you think the other races have never done anything like cerberus has then your are greatly mistaken.
But love them or hate them, they are the imbodiment of certian human instincts and emotions aka the enemy of my enemy is my friend and vengence/wrath. Also remember that Cerberus is  Black Ops and When have you ever heard of Black ops being all kind and nice. Humanity is at war and to save the rightious you sometimes have to stroke demons.
So what it comes down to is that they are the lesser of two evils, perhaps they are looking at the big picture. They are doing the same thing the other races have done in the past and still are the only difference is  they are doing it for humanity. The fear of the extintion is a very powerful thing indeed.
You could say they are evil but compared to the reapers, the collectors, the geth, and others?
I can not condone what they have done nor can I condeme it.

Modifié par OmegaXI, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:43 .

[Vaulin Faust]

OmegaXI wrote...

Cerberus=is a multi-headed hound usually three-headed which guards the gates of Hades, to prevent those evils from ever escaping.
Now please think about this, the name they took from human legends and myth is of a creature who guarded the gates of hades/hell. Cerberus represents  a side of humanity that isn't politically correct and they know it. They have  heard of other alien races  committing genocide on a scale humans never knew about before, and if you think the other races have never done anything like cerberus has then your are greatly mistaken.
But love them or hate them, they are the imbodiment of certian human instincts and emotions aka the enemy of my enemy is my friend and vengence/wrath. Also remeber that Cerberus is  Black Ops and When have you ever heard of Black ops being all kind and nice. Humanity is at war and to save the rightious you sometimes have to stroke demons.
So what it comes down to is that they are the lesser of two evils, perhaps they are looking at the big picture. They are doing the same thing the other races have done in the past and still are the only difference is  they are doing it for humanity. The fear of the extintion is a very powerful thing indeed.
You could say they are evil but compared to the reapers, the collectors, the geth, and others?
I can not condone what they have done nor can I condeme it.

well said.

[Apophis2412]

Vaulin Faust wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaulin Faust wrote...

 Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them.
Evil, no. Renegade, very much so. 

Cerberus doesn't pretend to be some holier than thou organization of skittles & gum drops. It knows what it does is brutal, unethical, and often times callous, but they  understand that ethics and an unwillingness to do the 
unreprehensible for the greater good, ultimately retards progress.

Cerberus would have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in WW2, not because they're mean or evil, but b/c the projected casualties of an amphibious assault on mainland Japan were almost a million, and that the death of 200k civilians was an acceptable loss to end the fighting quickly.

So you think performing experiments on humans against their will is not evil?  Your justification for those experiments is the same used by the ****s.  Also, does Cerberus act on behalf of a elected government or with the consent of an elected government?  By what right do they have to take these actions and to speak for humanity?  Spectres at least were acting with the consent and support of the Council, these guys don't  have that and yet think they have the right to allow the murder your entire family just for the sake of research, and will do it.

I'm going to look forward to see how my Sole Survivor Shepard is going to act in ME2.

I honestly hope you're not justifying anyone's actions, good or bad, beneficial or deletrious,  b/c they're sanctioned by a government, tyrannical or righteous.

Right...so a organisation that declares itself as acting in humanity's best interests and will kill people without any kind of sanction from anyone is not tyrannical itself then?  If I was to declare to everyone that I now speak for you and start making posts on your behalf would that be right?  Please don't try to add more into it, at no point did I say that anyone's actions is right, and you know it, so stop trying to stir things up.  In fact, my comparing Cerberus to the ****s should prove this point.

If I was being attacked, or demeaned, or disenfranchised in some way, and I couldn't speak up for myself, and no one else seemed to care, and you did, would it be right? yes. I'm assuming those ****'s are refering to the National Socialist German Workers' party. And really, you're not far off, but the biggest difference between TIM and the leader of the workers' party, is that Hitler's goals were good(rebuild the economy, lower unemployment, bring the country back to the forefront on the world stage in art, science, engineering, etc), his methods poor (genocide), and all driven by his own personal hatred for people who basically kicked him out of art school, and that's just not TIMs story.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth; I was just pointing out that your main point earlier was that

Also, does Cerberus act on behalf of an elected government or with the consent of an elected government?  By what right do they have to take these actions and to speak for humanity?  Spectres at least were acting with the consent and support of the Council

And I was saying that it frankly doesn't matter who sanctions someone's actions. Whether they're reprehensible or not is based on the acts themselves, means & ends. Things like, "b/c I was under orders" or, "I was just doing my job" are in no way an excuse or justification.

On the Hitler part: To bad his goals also included 'Lebensraum' and 'Untermenschen'. Some of Hitler's goals were good, while others were insanely evil/bad.

[Medhia Nox]

((BOOK SPOILERS))



Ascension details an academy where young Biotics are being trained. There is a young biotic named Gillian. She is an orphan - the Illusive Man gives her to a man who pretends to be her father. Then, on the Illusive Man's orders, the father gives her experimental drugs - the Illusive Man also puts an secret agent on board the academy. This man also performs experiments.



Then, when the father realizes his love for his daughter is greater than his belief in "Humanity First" - the Illusive Man wants him killed, the daughter kidnapped and brought back for closer experimentation.



The Illusive Man doesn't do what he does because he "loves" humanity so much. It's interesting that the books suggest how patient he is - yet, a truely patient man doesn't experiment on children, pushing untested drugs on them. He wants to speed up humanities understanding of biotics - because they ARE a weapon and he wants it to "protect" himself. People protect themselves because they fear harm.



-----



The other - is the Council. They make a very big point of this in the books.



The Council IS largely impartial. There are slight examples of favoritism - but much to humanities shock the three Council races do not always side on behalf of their own races. Quite the opposite actually.



The First Contact War for example. Why did the Council care at all about a new race?



They state how many humans simply don't get how the Salarians, Turians, and Asari act without a "my species first" mentality. Yet, this is suggested as the REAL reason why they are in charge and not the other races who are - like humanity - simply concerned with basic animal concepts like species survival.



The old Council from Mass Effect 1 truly was out for the "Greater Good" of all species. That doesn't make them perfect - or even good. But this does refute that they are "Mostly" self-serving.



They are advanced - humanity is not yet, and the Illusive Man is the result.



((Evil will pop up anywhere - look at Saren and Benezia. My point is that, this "Co-operation" the Council does promote is foreign to humanity in the books. I believe it is a deliberate statement of the author.



Cerberus does not want to co-operate. They want to dominate.))

[Vaulin Faust]

of course Apophis2412



I didn't go into detail about his platform because evidently most people are aware of it. I did try to qualify the good traits specifically, however.

[Apophis2412]

OmegaXI wrote...

Cerberus=is a multi-headed hound usually three-headed which guards the gates of Hades, to prevent those evils from ever escaping.
Now please think about this, the name they took from human legends and myth is of a creature who guarded the gates of hades/hell. Cerberus represents  a side of humanity that isn't politically correct and they know it. They have  heard of other alien races  committing genocide on a scale humans never knew about before, and if you think the other races have never done anything like cerberus has then your are greatly mistaken.
But love them or hate them, they are the imbodiment of certian human instincts and emotions aka the enemy of my enemy is my friend and vengence/wrath. Also remember that Cerberus is  Black Ops and When have you ever heard of Black ops being all kind and nice. Humanity is at war and to save the rightious you sometimes have to stroke demons.
So what it comes down to is that they are the lesser of two evils, perhaps they are looking at the big picture. They are doing the same thing the other races have done in the past and still are the only difference is  they are doing it for humanity. The fear of the extintion is a very powerful thing indeed.
You could say they are evil but compared to the reapers, the collectors, the geth, and others?
I can not condone what they have done nor can I condeme it.

Yet there are no indications that Cerberus' actions, or 'evil' actions in general, are needed to win the current war.
We don't automatically resort to 'evil' tactics, just because the enemy uses them. Or should the Alliance consider using asteroids to bomb Batarian colonies just like the Batarian terrorists did?

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaulin Faust wrote...

If I was being attacked, or demeaned, or disenfranchised in some way, and I couldn't speak up for myself, and no one else seemed to care, and you did, would it be right? yes. I'm assuming those ****'s are refering to the National Socialist German Workers' party. And really, you're not far off, but the biggest difference between TIM and the leader of the workers' party, is that Hitler's goals were good(rebuild the economy, lower unemployment, bring the country back to the forefront on the world stage in art, science, engineering, etc), his methods poor (genocide), and all driven by his own personal hatred for people who basically kicked him out of art school, and that's just not TIMs story.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth; I was just pointing out that your main point earlier was that

Also, does Cerberus act on behalf of an elected government or with the consent of an elected government?  By what right do they have to take these actions and to speak for humanity?  Spectres at least were acting with the consent and support of the Council

And I was saying that it frankly doesn't matter who sanctions someone's actions. Whether they're reprehensible or not is based on the acts themselves, means & ends. Things like, "b/c I was under orders" or, "I was just doing my job" are in no way an excuse or justification.

Yep, those ***s do stand for that, was worried they might be taken the wrong way.   The reason why I think it does matter that they have not been sanctioned is that they are claiming to act on behalf of humanity, yet as far as we know 'humanity' has not agreed that to this.  It's essentially a terrorist group declaring that they are acting on behalf of the good of all.  As for being disenfranchised et al, there are very few examples of being oppressed ingame, and many of the ones that are result from Cerebus itself.

[Medhia Nox]

And the humans on the Citadel - and the option Shepard has - are so childish as to be laughable.



"You're holding us back!" - Shepard.



"I'm not a child anymore!" - my teenager.



----



I believe they are portraying humans as ambitious, violent, bullies for a reason.

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

I think Cerberus' leadership is morally suspect yeah, the Illusive Man isn't Mister Nice Guy. But not all the different operations its running are necessarily evil. Experimenting on people, wiping out colonies, yeah evil.



Resurrecting Shepherd because they want him to stop the apocalypse of all sentient life (even if its because humans are counted in that)? Not so much.



While I think there are definitely a lot of amoral monsters in Cerberus, they can't be all bad - Jacob for one doesn't seem like he's "evil".

[Vaulin Faust]

The Council sees humanity as you've pointed out, as a child. Young, belligerent, selfish, illogical, self-righteous, and self-entitled. Along the lines of this quote from Hagakure.



"To be prideful about your strength while your mettle is not yet established is likely to bring you shame in the midst of people. You are weaker than you look."

The First Contact War for example. Why did the Council care at all about a new race?

You're also saying that the Council believes that humanity is small minded in its goals. It has trouble seeing the big picture and is in short too immature to serve on the council.



I perceived the Council as an altruistic political body who looked out for the interests of all sentient(organic) life as a whole via stability and cooperation. Personally I don't feel being indifferent to the new kid on the block is anything but self-serving. If it doesn't bother me & my clique, who cares. To me, the council is concerned with preserving the status-quo, which is why it's so sluggish to bring on new races to the council, even though given it's projected set of goals(Galactic unity & cooperation), should have done so a long time ago. They're elitist in a sense, feeling that the other races need to grow up some before they can sit at the adult table.



This I think would hold true until Sovereign's attack on the Citadel.



I'd say the Council is as 'for the greater good' as Udina is.

[Peuhkis]

Cerberus is like CIA, CIA protect's America's interests and humanity would be america in our example here. Cerberus just protect's humanity's interests by ALL means necessary, god i love Cerberus.

[steve1945]

JudgeQwerty wrote...

I hope we're not going to have some retcon where the Illusive Man reveals his perfectly good reasons for wiping out a human colony Akuze, breeding Thorians, Husks, and Rachni which incidentally wipe out more humans, and murdering human marines just to cover your butt along with a highranking official or two.... then there's the Illusive Man's schenanigans in Ascension.

So these guys are still baddies, right? We'll get to whack a few Cerberus Commandos just before the Illusive Man reveals he had you cloned to take over his empire of darkness? It won't just be 'We're fighting for humanity' and I have three choices that say "Though you make me sick..." "You're right..." and "Go Cerberus!!"

Thoughts?

To the common masses our struggle is a fight, a war. A battle fought with sinew and muscle, with bullet, blade, and bomb, with tank and warship.
To those of us high enough realize this is a conflict of will! A struggle of metaphysical dimension. The future of Mankind is our battleground.
The very existence of the human race is the prize for victory. Our morality is the sacrifice we make to win that victory.


Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us; unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation.
In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality.
Behind the hearts and minds of man hide a multitude of horrors as would disgust and repel the most stout-hearted of men.
So it is with determination and unflinching duty that I must face those vile and terrible things – for if not me, then who?


Two great reasons why Cerberus are the good guys
Humans must at times die for humanity to live on

[JudgeQwerty]

steve1945 wrote...

JudgeQwerty wrote...

I hope we're not going to have some retcon where the Illusive Man reveals his perfectly good reasons for wiping out a human colony Akuze, breeding Thorians, Husks, and Rachni which incidentally wipe out more humans, and murdering human marines just to cover your butt along with a highranking official or two.... then there's the Illusive Man's schenanigans in Ascension.

So these guys are still baddies, right? We'll get to whack a few Cerberus Commandos just before the Illusive Man reveals he had you cloned to take over his empire of darkness? It won't just be 'We're fighting for humanity' and I have three choices that say "Though you make me sick..." "You're right..." and "Go Cerberus!!"

Thoughts?

To the common masses our struggle is a fight, a war. A battle fought with sinew and muscle, with bullet, blade, and bomb, with tank and warship.
To those of us high enough realize this is a conflict of will! A struggle of metaphysical dimension. The future of Mankind is our battleground.
The very existence of the human race is the prize for victory. Our morality is the sacrifice we make to win that victory.


Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us; unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation.
In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality.
Behind the hearts and minds of man hide a multitude of horrors as would disgust and repel the most stout-hearted of men.
So it is with determination and unflinching duty that I must face those vile and terrible things – for if not me, then who?


Two great reasons why Cerberus are the good guys
Humans must at times die for humanity to live on

...what does that mean?!

[Peuhkis]

It means that Cerberus is what humanity needs to win.

[Mox Ruuga]

Valmy wrote...


Tell that to the rest of my unit on Akuze.

Or the human colony that was turned into husks.

Or Kahoku's family (and the families of his recon marines).

[Dazzav2]

Kiazus wrote...

they killed kohaku, they are going to pay u_u

How dare they kill the man I met only moments ago!

[SmilingMirror]

Teknor wrote...

Alliance is not paragon. Hackett made me do a lot of Alliance's questionable wetwork. Like that overlord in renegade mission who was screwed by Alliance.

And cerberus is not fully renegade. There are some totally non-racists who go along with Cerberus as they are quite the humanitarians in reality, such as Kelly Chambers.

[FlintlockJazz]

Peuhkis wrote...

It means that Cerberus is what humanity needs to win.

It means that humans will always attempt to justify their actions even when there really isn't any real justification, and that some people are too subservient to realise that while those in power will quite happily sacrifice their lives for the 'betterment' of all they will never sacrifice themselves. 

@Steve, never believe that rubbish, it's how they tricked thousands of men to throw their lives away in World War 1 while those espousing such beliefs sat safely in their opulent offices as far from the front lines as they could get.  If you are willing to throw your own life away for something you believe in that's great, but never fall for those who will throw your life for their own betterment.  Those who say otherwise are usually the ones with the power and money to avoid being put through the meat grinder themselves.

[jedierick]

I guess you could look at it from the point of view that they are doing all this in an effort to protect humanity, the idea of kill a few save a million? the rachni would be an awesome allies against any foe if you think aboutit.

[Boom_Headshot1337]

Yes. And why yes.
-They threatened the Migrant Fleet's Idenna in the book Acension.
-They want humans better then the aliens, we can't be THAT superior. And because of thier history, they will make some unessacary alien casualties.
-The galaxy is more then just humanity.
-They turned a colony into husks.
-Cerberus created brutal projects on Maws, Rachni, etc.
-Possibly twist their employee's minds into think Cerberus is good.
-Jack was tortured by those heartless employees.
-Akuze, never forget what happened.
And so much other reasons. Helping you out and reviving you does nothing to redeem them, they are using Shepard as a pawn and when the Reapers are vanquished, they will dispose of shepard. They are still ruthless and brutal and their method of "Human dominance" is just facist and racist. 

Modifié par Boom_Headshot1337, 03 juillet 2010 - 06:00 .