61 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

In Thedas, there are runes. These runes are the application of lyrium to a stable surface and they can produce a myriad of effects from flaming swords to cups that keep your beverage cool.

The Circles hold a monopoly on runecrafting. However, it doesn't have to be this way. The only reason they hold a monopoly is because the Chantry has the monopoly on lyrium trading and they provide it only for the Circle and the Templars.

 

However, I believe the Chantry should either sell lyrium to the highest bidder or allow the dwarves to do just that. This is because it does not require a mage to craft runes: Tranquil and the dwarves can do it. Therefore, if the Chantry allowed wealthy merchants to buy lyrium, Tranquil would go from unwanted freaks to skilled and sought after artisans since they are not forbidden from leaving the Circle.

 

The results of this are obvious:

1-It would break the Circle monopoly on runes which would reduce their influence and create a competitive market that would enable the common man to afford runes to help him.

 

2-The mages would either have to support more Rites of Tranquility or risk being unable to compete with the outside world which, of course, leads to weak mages not being spared out of pity and be made a threat to society.

And should short sigthed factions like the Libertarians gain control, if, say, the Merchant Princes of Antiva learn that there is a rebellion happening in the Circle with the Rite of Tranquility on the line, they might just send a few troops down there of their own accord. Or better yet, hire the crows to go after the ringleaders.

Even if the Tranquil become unavailable, surface dwarves can always be hired by the merchants.

 

Therefore, here's to the Inquisition being able to open the lyrium market.

[Herr Uhl]

However, I believe the Chantry should either sell lyrium to the highest bidder or allow the dwarves to do just that. This is because it does not require a mage to craft runes: Tranquil and the dwarves can do it. Therefore, if the Chantry allowed wealthy merchants to buy lyrium, Tranquil would go from unwanted freaks to skilled and sought after artisans since they are not forbidden from leaving the Circle.

Is the point to make it more attractive to be tranquil? I don't fully understand where the perks are for the Chantry in this.

[Dean_the_Young]

If the Chantry kept the trading monopoly but allowed demand to grow, the Chantry could make significant gains in income from handling the trade as a middle-man. There would be increased costs in supplying their own Templars, but the overall profits could be considerable. Supply isn't likely to change much, but the demand for lyrium could greatly increase.

 

There are challenges, of course- if the lyrium trade, already considerable, jumps significantly in value then the Chantry might find itself faced with more challengers as people try to get a piece of the pie.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The Chantry makes a steady income selling runes. I'm not entirely convinced this would benefit them in any way. Selling lyrium to the outside might, but it's uncertain that A.) they would have much surplus supply to begin with, or, B.) that they would actually profit from it over just crafting and selling the runes in house. Would it benefit the people to open the trade? Maybe, questionable. Would it benefit the Chantry? Probably not. It would likely benefit the dwarves to have a competitive market.

 

It wouldn't effect the mages either way. Right now, the Chantry has tranquil producing runes for basically just room and board. The Chantry are the ones making the profit, not the actual mages. Why would mages care if the Chantry was outpaced by outsiders with more competitive prices? It's not really any harm to them. Certainly not a reason to start volunteering to become tranquil.

 

Let's be honest, there's a decent amount of potential abuse from letting just anyone get their hands on a steady lyrium supply. Ingesting lyrium is what gives templar their abilities. Lyrium tattoos are what gave Fenris his abilities. We're not really sure what scope this sort of application has. People could use it towards benevolent goals, but they could also use it towards the opposite. I'm not entirely ruling out potential benefits, but the risks need to be weighed before we retract any restrictions, full stop. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Er, the money from Tranquil sales goes to the Circles, not the Chantry. WOG confirms this. There's an entire fraternity (Lucrosians, IIRC) based around this fact that the Circles generate their own wealth, as oppossed to being budgeted by the Chantry.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Er, the money from Tranquil sales goes to the Circles, not the Chantry. WOG confirms this. There's an entire fraternity (Lucrosians, IIRC) based around this fact that the Circles generate their own wealth, as oppossed to being budgeted by the Chantry.

Chantry money/Circle money is a thin line. Mages don't have a huge amount of freedom as to where they can spend their money. The Chantry has an ethical obligation to keep the circles livable, so in the end, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference. Money doesn't substantially change the position of the average mage. I can't imagine under what logical circumstances the runes/enchantment trade would be enough to motivate mages to willingly give up their personhood. 

[TheLittleBird]

I partly agree the Chantry should.

But the Chantry won't.

 

Why? Because right now this can be used as a 'weapon' to bring back the Templar Order under Chantry control. There's only so many lyrium smugglers out there, and that's quite a dangerous trade.
Though I must admit I don't exactly know what the situation is now with the Templars, having seceded from the Chantry, and their lyrium. I suspect the Red Templars seem to be a pretty strong indication that the situation is... well, not good.

 

And yes, I know this thread is primarily about the usage of runes and how the lyrium monopoly of the Chantry affects runecrafting in Thedas, but this whole Templar-situation seems to be a pretty important factor when talking about the lyrium trade.

[Master Warder Z_]

You're the only one with no posts on topic in this thread, buddy. 

 

Apprentices had free leave to be taken out of the Circle via their Master, And the Masters apparently had the authority if they possessed seniority to leave the tower with out even Templar Escorts, so any notion of them being limited in where they could spend their monies seems conjectural to me. Aka they weren't limited to where they could spend their coin while within the circle.

 

It even goes inversely for Tranquil giving WOT in Fereldan was opened and ran by a Tranquil, Obviously the Tranquil are paid and have some method of spending their coin outside of the circle if they can leave and go open a shop dealing in magical antiques and enchanted goods.

 

Point being, Mages could in all likelihood spend their cash on whatever they wanted.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Apprentices had free leave to be taken out of the Circle via their Master, And the Masters apparently had the authority if they possessed seniority to leave the tower with out even Templar Escorts, so any notion of them being limited in where they could spend their monies seems conjectural to me. Aka they weren't limited to where they could spend their coin while within the circle.

 

It even goes inversely for Tranquil giving WOT in Fereldan was opened and ran by a Tranquil, Obviously the Tranquil are paid and have some method of spending their coin outside of the circle if they can leave and go open a shop dealing in magical antiques and enchanted goods.

 

Point being, Mages could in all likelihood spend their cash on whatever they wanted.

Consider that tranquility, to most mages, isn't necessarily preferable even to death. Think about how likely you would be to go through the rite. I mean, really think about it. Does the concept of losing all capacity for human emotion sound especially appealing to you? It doesn't sound appealing to most mages, either.

 

Most mages don't spend a lot of time wandering around the markets. Mages have a small amount of space in the circle and they obviously would be scrutinized for any purchases that could possibly be of any threat. The amount of purchases they could logically make are limited to a small range of luxury products. In all likeliness, this is a benefit to the Chantry, overall. Mages being dressed in rags and being fed only bread and water would lead not only to less compliance and more resistance inside the circle, it would make their plight look more sympathetic to those on the outside. The Chantry doesn't really benefit from this, they have more to gain from the mages being as comfortable as possible with as little out of their own pockets as possible.

 

So, while Vivienne having to halve her hat collection might cause her to look a little less favorably on the circle system, it likely wouldn't encourage her or any other mages volunteering to become tranquil, basically.

[wcholcombe]

Well, considering both the Dwarves and Tevinter also create runes and enchantments, you can hardly say that the Chantry has a monopoly on it,  They probably dominate it yes, but that doesn't make it a monopoly.

[Sir JK]

Well, considering both the Dwarves and Tevinter also create runes and enchantments, you can hardly say that the Chantry has a monopoly on it,  They probably dominate it yes, but that doesn't make it a monopoly.

 

Not to mention that Tevinter acquires a fair amount of Lyrium from the dwarves as well. You'd think the Andrastian Chantry would take issue with that and strangle the supply if they could.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Not to mention that Tevinter acquires a fair amount of Lyrium from the dwarves as well. You'd think the Andrastian Chantry would take issue with that and strangle the supply if they could.

The question is, what CAN they do? Nobody else has access to lyrium except the dwarves. Moreover, nobody except the dwarves really have the raw numbers of resistant, willing parties to actually process raw lyrium. The Chantry could march on the dwarves, but it would at least temporarily cut the supply to their heavily addicted templars and, in the end, they still need the dwarves to keep processing the raw lyrium. They have extremely little leverage in the situation. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Chantry money/Circle money is a thin line. Mages don't have a huge amount of freedom as to where they can spend their money. The Chantry has an ethical obligation to keep the circles livable, so in the end, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference. Money doesn't substantially change the position of the average mage.

 

Then in that case it would be more honest to say that the Chantry (as the financier of last resort) subsidizes the Circle system, not the other way around. Saying the labor of the mages funds the Chantry is an exploitative relationship: saying the Chantry funds the Circle system sans mages except and even then ensures mages have necessities is a different relationship.

 

It's the same sort of distinction that makes the difference between theft, fees, taxes, contributions, and charity, even if the same amount of money goes to the same people.

 

 

I can't imagine under what logical circumstances the runes/enchantment trade would be enough to motivate mages to willingly give up their personhood.

 

Did anyone claim it did? Just that the money they make from their voluntary work is theirs, as opposed to the Chantry's or Templars.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not to mention that Tevinter acquires a fair amount of Lyrium from the dwarves as well. You'd think the Andrastian Chantry would take issue with that and strangle the supply if they could.

 

If it were in a context devoid of other context, sure. But Tevinter is a big place, has its own ways to retaliate, and maintaining a relationship is a way to maintain influence (and get profit) from the Tevinter Imperium.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Then in that case it would be more honest to say that the Chantry (as the financier of last resort) subsidizes the Circle system, not the other way around. Saying the labor of the mages funds the Chantry is an exploitative relationship: saying the Chantry funds the Circle system sans mages except and even then ensures mages have necessities is a different relationship.

 

It's the same sort of distinction that makes the difference between theft, fees, taxes, contributions, and charity, even if the same amount of money goes to the same people.

 

Did anyone claim it did? Just that the money they make from their voluntary work is theirs, as opposed to the Chantry's or Templars.

I think we're having a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying the mages "fund" the Chantry, in at least a way that I'm suggesting that's their primary means of income. In the first post you quoted I misspoke when I said "Chantry" instead of "Circle", I suppose, because the two institutions are basically the same to me. The Chantry owns and operates the Circles, essentially. What I mean when I say that Chantry money/Circle money is a thin line is that, at least for the intended purpose, they're mutually beneficiary. If the Circle loses money, it hurts the Chantry bottom line. They're basically going to be the ones either picking up the losses, or dealing with the consequences.

 

You didn't claim it, no. The OP seems to claim it, unless you're understanding his point 2 in a different way than I am. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

So your entire argument is basically that the chantry should give up its monopoly, the thing that every money making entity wishes to become as the apex of their progression in business, so that antiva can swoop in and overtake the market, along with a bunch of scheming surfacer dwarves. And that their other option should be to give the dwarves almost an exclusive edge on lyrium, making them the most powerful political power in all of thedas given they're the only ones who can mine the stuff, for no other reason. And, even more of a kick in the nuts, that they should compete with the dwarves by mass tranquilization of mages, so that they are left without any  sort of magically augmentive military edge to defend themselves from events such as a blight, the qunari, the tevinter imperium, or any other problem that might require an exalted march, such as the dwarves. Because that is the only way the chantry or tranquil would be able to compete with the dwarves, and their hundreds upon hundresd of cratesmen skilled in lyrium smithing.

 

I see a lot of ways the chantry will be signing their death warrents economically and militarily, a lot of reasons for abuses of mages to now be economically incentified, and a lot of ways to give the dwarves near exclusive power over every other nation, but not a lot about how this benefits anyone else but the dwarves.

[Maria Caliban]

Reasons not to open lyrium trade.

1) Apostates use lyrium to become more powerful, increasing the number of Templar deaths.

2) Lyrium itself can be weaponized. We've seen several examples of it becoming an explosive.

3) Lyrium is addictive, volatile, and possibly 'radioactive' in a magical sense. When the Circle's Tranquils work with it, the Chantry knows that it's being used at an isolated location by those who are rigorously trained on how to properly handle it. Opening it up to the masses will increase the chances of it being shipped or handled improperly.

[MisterJB]

Consider that tranquility, to most mages, isn't necessarily preferable even to death. Think about how likely you would be to go through the rite. I mean, really think about it. Does the concept of losing all capacity for human emotion sound especially appealing to you? It doesn't sound appealing to most mages, either.

 

Most mages don't spend a lot of time wandering around the markets. Mages have a small amount of space in the circle and they obviously would be scrutinized for any purchases that could possibly be of any threat. The amount of purchases they could logically make are limited to a small range of luxury products. In all likeliness, this is a benefit to the Chantry, overall. Mages being dressed in rags and being fed only bread and water would lead not only to less compliance and more resistance inside the circle, it would make their plight look more sympathetic to those on the outside. The Chantry doesn't really benefit from this, they have more to gain from the mages being as comfortable as possible with as little out of their own pockets as possible.

 

So, while Vivienne having to halve her hat collection might cause her to look a little less favorably on the circle system, it likely wouldn't encourage her or any other mages volunteering to become tranquil, basically.

You misunderstand. I did not mention volunteering.

The point regarding the Tranquil is that as they begin to gain offers from the outside world, the Circle will see their main source of income diminish which helps ensure that they themselves will regulate the Rite of Tranquility in order to remain competitive in the rune market.

For instance, take Jowan. He was a weak willed mage who dabbled in blood magic on top of everything. Basically, an Abomination in the making. And despite all of this, Irving still wished to protect him.

If Tranquils begin to become a valuable commodity, Irving himself would submit him to the Rite. Basically, the Templars would be much less contested when they wish to Tranquilize dangerous mages.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

You misunderstand. I did not mention volunteering.

The point regarding the Tranquil is that as they begin to gain offers from the outside world, the Circle will see their main source of income diminish which helps ensure that they themselves will regulate the Rite of Tranquility in order to remain competitive in the rune market.

For instance, take Jowan. He was a weak willed mage who dabbled in blood magic on top of everything. Basically, an Abomination in the making. And despite all of this, Irving still wished to protect him.

If Tranquils begin to become a valuable commodity, Irving himself would submit him to the Rite. Basically, the Templars would be much less contested when they wish to Tranquilize dangerous mages.

What you're suggesting isn't going to cast a very pleasant light on the Chantry from the outside, especially if you're setting up a situation where the Chantry is abusing it's power specifically to compete with the outside market. 

 

I'm also not really convinced that runes/enchanting is the "main source of income" for the Chantry, though. Like any church, I imagine their main source of income is donations from their followers. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm also not really convinced that runes/enchanting is the "main source of income" for the Chantry, though. Like any church, I imagine their main source of income is donations from their followers. 

 

I'd assume the vast majority of enchantments that are within Humans lands come from the Circle and therefore Tranquil mages. If they maintain a monopoly on the surface then it would make sense that it be a major source of income on the surface.

[wcholcombe]

What you're suggesting isn't going to cast a very pleasant light on the Chantry from the outside, especially if you're setting up a situation where the Chantry is abusing it's power specifically to compete with the outside market. 

 

I'm also not really convinced that runes/enchanting is the "main source of income" for the Chantry, though. Like any church, I imagine their main source of income is donations from their followers. 

It has been stated repeatedly by Gaider that the chantry doesn't make money off the enchanting. The enchanting goes directly to paying for the upkeep and support of the circles. He has literally stated the Chantry doesn't make money off of the the enchantments from the tranquil.

[Master Warder Z_]

It has been stated repeatedly by Gaider that the chantry doesn't make money off the enchanting. The enchanting goes directly to paying for the upkeep and support of the circles. He has literally stated the Chantry doesn't make money off of the the enchantments from the tranquil.

 

It's not like keeping those things open were cheap.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It has been stated repeatedly by Gaider that the chantry doesn't make money off the enchanting. The enchanting goes directly to paying for the upkeep and support of the circles. He has literally stated the Chantry doesn't make money off of the the enchantments from the tranquil.

Keeping the Circles open is an expense of the Chantry, for all intents and purposes, so I find the disconnect to be a little tenuous. But the point is taken, it's not their primary source of income. 

[MisterJB]

So your entire argument is basically that the chantry should give up its monopoly, the thing that every money making entity wishes to become as the apex of their progression in business, so that antiva can swoop in and overtake the market, along with a bunch of scheming surfacer dwarves.

The Chantry makes no money that we have seen of the Lyrium trade. They buy it from the dwarves and then distribute it as needed to the Templars and Circle whose money made from enchantments performed by the Circle revert to the Circle, not the Chantry. WOG says so.

In fact, by becoming the middleman between the dwarves and the merchants and nobles of Thedas, it could stand to make a pretty penny while mantaining regulation of the ore.

 

And that their other option should be to give the dwarves almost an exclusive edge on lyrium, making them the most powerful political power in all of thedas given they're the only ones who can mine the stuff, for no other reason.

They already are the only ones who can mine it; they already are the only who can sell it; effectivelly, they already have the monopoly and it has not resulted in anything major, most likely because their culture seeks to minimize contact with the outsiders as much as possible and because they are not self-sustaining communities. As it is often said in DAO, trade with the surface is Orzammar's lifeline. I've no doubt that the surface can put its own pressure on the dwarves if need be.

There is already a market for runes on the surface that are all made with lyrium mined by the dwarves; what I seek to do is to give non-mage merchants the opportunity to set up their own industry.

 

by mass tranquilization of mages, so that they are left without any  sort of magically augmentive military edge to defend themselves from events such as a blight, the qunari, the tevinter imperium, or any other problem that might require an exalted march, such as the dwarves

 

Obvious, the numbers of the Circle must be heavily regulated. Why, one could even lift the restrictions on reproduction.

 

. Because that is the only way the chantry or tranquil would be able to compete with the dwarves, and their hundreds upon hundresd of cratesmen skilled in lyrium smithing.

And they already exist. You don't hear the Circle going out of business or being forced to resort to mass tranquilizations, do you? What I am suggesting is allowing normal humans to set up their own industry; they are already free to buy dwarven made runes.

 

 a lot of reasons for abuses of mages to now be economically incentified,

That's the beauty of it; the mages themselves will call for more Rites of Tranquility. We're not abusing them.

[MisterJB]

Also, one should take into account that the dwarven caste system impedes them from simply training more runesmiths. They must be born and dwarven fertility is very low.