61 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Of all the crazy ideas I've seen put forward over the about year and a half I've been watching this forum section, this ones gotta be one of the nuttiest.

I mean, opening a trade that other people to do, when the only people able to do it are either mentally deficient or midgets, who are all already involved in the trade, seems like a fools errand to me. Non-mage merchants can already sell runes, and this new policy wont give them access to make or shape lyrium anymore then it already has with the current system. It literally is a call that does nothing but encourages more tranquility and gives dwarf nobles and merchants more power. Surface dwarfs may be able to touch lyrium without dying or going insane, but they wouldn't have the skill to actually do anything with it, not unless they worked with the tranquil, who work for the chantry, which basically makes surface dwarves who want to go into the enchantment business have to work through the tranquil to do so. Dwarves underground wouldn't train them, so that is their only option.

Even worse, opening lyrium to the highest bidder would probably allow a increase in the use of lyrium for non-enchantment purposes only. As a poison perhaps, since that is all it can be to anyone not a mage. A way for templars to no longer listen to the chantry since they no longer need to go through them to get their fix, way to go there in taking away one of the controls the chantry could have over them. And worse yet, allowing a new source of explosive to be avalaiable, so say hello to a lot of copy cat anders using lyrium to blow up whatever building they want.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Did you seriously just suggest breeding mages for tranquilization and cannon fodder? Wooooooooooow. 

[Hellion Rex]

Eh, I think it's a valid idea.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Eh, I think it's a valid idea.

But what does it actually accomplish? Who are these non-mage enchanters and runcrafters who benefit from having more lyrium avaliable to them?

[MisterJB]

Of all the crazy ideas I've seen put forward over the about year and a half I've been watching this forum section, this ones gotta be one of the nuttiest.

I mean, opening a trade that other people to do, when the only people able to do it are either mentally deficient or midgets, who are all already involved in the trade, seems like a fools errand to me. Non-mage merchants can already sell runes, and this new policy wont give them access to make or shape lyrium anymore then it already has with the current system. It literally is a call that does nothing but encourages more tranquility and gives dwarf nobles and merchants more power.

 

How does it give them more power? Surface dwarves are unable to sell enchantments because only the Chantry has acess to the lyrium and those produced underground are either already present in the surface market or they are not. Allowing for non-mages entrepeneurs to get in on the action will, in fact, reduce their power.

Again, the dwarves already have the monopoly on all the lyrium, enabling others to purchase might make the prices soar but only if the Chantry doesn't regulate the market. They could still be the only ones allowed to buy lyrium from the dwarves but they would sell it to human merchants who would then hire Tranquils or surface dwarves to create the runes. Thus, it break the Circle's monopoly on runecrafting. As of now, all human merchants can do is re-sell the runes. This idea would allow non-mages to produce them as well which would also increate its availability and lower the prices thus enabling the common man to afford them and use them to make their lives easier.

 

Surface dwarfs may be able to touch lyrium without dying or going insane, but they wouldn't have the skill to actually do anything with it, not unless they worked with the tranquil, who work for the chantry, which basically makes surface dwarves who want to go into the enchantment business have to work through the tranquil to do so. Dwarves underground wouldn't train them, so that is their only option.

 

The Tranquil are free to do whatever, they choose to remain in the Circles. If they are offered an option to come work for outside merchants, there is a chance many of them will take it. They can then teach surface dwarves.

Even worse, opening lyrium to the highest bidder would probably allow a increase in the use of lyrium for non-enchantment purposes only. As a poison perhaps, since that is all it can be to anyone not a mage. A way for templars to no longer listen to the chantry since they no longer need to go through them to get their fix, way to go there in taking away one of the controls the chantry could have over them. And worse yet, allowing a new source of explosive to be avalaiable, so say hello to a lot of copy cat anders using lyrium to blow up whatever building they want.

 

As with any other substance, it has its dangers. Mercury is pretty dangerous but we still make ligthbulbs out of it.

Also, I don't recall lyrium being conbustible.

[MisterJB]

Did you seriously just suggest breeding mages for tranquilization and cannon fodder? Wooooooooooow. 

Is demography an alien concept to you? Ultimately, people are bred so that nations can function.

That is the cold truth; I prefer to think of it as a give-and-take situation. If mages become more dutiful in Tranquilizing mages that will, most certainly, become Abominations, I have no issue allowing mage couples to have children and keep them in order to ensure that, should a war break out, Thedas can has on its side. It's not like a Darkspawn or Qunari victory would benefit the mages.

[The Baconer]

Also, I don't recall lyrium being conbustible.

 

I know it is a component used for making explosives.

 

But it would definitely be interesting to see how an open lyrium trade develops, for better or worse.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Is demography an alien concept to you? Ultimately, people are bred so that nations can function.

That is the cold truth; I prefer to think of it as a give-and-take situation. If mages become more dutiful in Tranquilizing mages that will, most certainly, become Abominations, I have no issue allowing mage couples to have children and keep them in order to ensure that, should a war break out, Thedas can has on its side. It's not like a Darkspawn or Qunari victory would benefit the mages.

Breeding an army of humans to lobotomize so that they can be easily used for manual labor is pretty alien concept to me, yes. 

[MisterJB]

Breeding an army of humans to lobotomize so that they can be easily used for manual labor is pretty alien concept to me, yes. 

You're changing my words to make my suggestions sound worse than they are.

Inevitably, some mages must be made Tranquil. They are a threat to themselves and others around them and will, inevitably, become Abominations. Not all, but some.

The Enchanters, out of simpathy, protect these mages; my suggestion creates a scenario that incentives the Enchanters to not be too lenient with dangerous mages and even creates the possibility for reward by allowing mages to keep their babies. The people are safer and the mages are happiers, win-win.

 

Or do you think that the Enchanters don't already understand that their wealth comes from the Tranquil? That they do not select some early on for that role?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

You're changing my words to make my suggestions sound worse than they are.

Inevitably, some mages must be made Tranquil. They are a threat to themselves and others around them and will, inevitably, become Abominations. Not all, but some.

The Enchanters, out of simpathy, protect these mages; my suggestion creates a scenario that incentives the Enchanters to not be too lenient with dangerous mages and even creates the possibility for reward by allowing mages to keep their babies. The people are safer and the mages are happiers, win-win.

 

Or do you think that the Enchanters don't already understand that their wealth comes from the Tranquil? That they do not select some early on for that role?

You just said the First Enchanters protect them and then you said they're picking off the herd to fund themselves. I don't think you even know what your argument is, but I really doubt anything I could say would make it any worse. 

[Master Warder Z_]

You just said the First Enchanters protect them and then you said they're picking off the herd to fund themselves. I don't think you even know what your argument is, but I really doubt anything I could say would make it any worse. 

 

Why cannot they do both at the same time?

 

Its not like Tranquil Mages cannot be useful to the Circle and its not as if Mages do not benefit from the arrangement as well, It seems a fairly useful stratagem to ensure Circle financial stability, encouraging Tranqulity and rune crafting.

[MisterJB]

You just said the First Enchanters protect them and then you said they're picking off the herd to fund themselves. I don't think you even know what your argument is, but I really doubt anything I could say would make it any worse. 

Unless the Enchanters are brain dead, they understand that the funds of the Circle rely on the Tranquil. Therefore, they do not have an interest in ensuring that all mages pass their Harrowing.

Of course, there are different levels of skill and of readiness. So, a Enchanter might be willing to approve of the Tranquilization of a mage that has 10% chance of passing his Harrowing and yet protect one that only has a  40% chance, despite the more than half danger of him failling and becoming an Abomination.

With this suggestion, the Enchanters would be more willing to turn these 40% chance mages into Tranquil because they are being employed by normal merchants and the Circle requires more Tranquil.

Which, of course, makes society safer.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Why cannot they do both at the same time?

 

Its not like Tranquil Mages cannot be useful to the Circle and its not as if Mages do not benefit from the arrangement as well, It seems a fairly useful stratagem to ensure Circle financial stability, encouraging Tranqulity and rune crafting.

Mages don't benefit from being made tranquil more often so that the Chantry can afford to keep them locked up outside of their own dime. That is literally insane reasoning. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Mages don't benefit from being made tranquil more often so that the Chantry can afford to keep them locked up outside of their own dime. That is literally insane reasoning. 

 

They keep those too weak to handle their power from becoming abominations and they can offer them a chance to benefit the circle, it doesn't sound insane to me. But given how you are comparing the rite to having sections of the brain via power tools i'd assume you don't view Tranquility as a good thing, Which is a pity considering its an effective method of not only ensuring both safety and profitability of the circle but also offering an alternative to those too weak to become circle mages.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

They keep those too weak to handle their power from becoming abominations and they can offer them a chance to benefit the circle, it doesn't sound insane to me. But given how you are comparing the rite to having sections of the brain via power tools i'd assume you don't view Tranquility as a good thing, Which is a pity considering its an effective method of not only ensuring both safety and profitability of the circle but also offering an alternative to those too weak to become circle mages.

I doubt sincerely that you would consider it a "good thing" if you were facing it. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I doubt sincerely that you would consider it a "good thing" if you were facing it. 

 

No?

 

The removal of emotional construct, the inability to be possessed, the ability to merely focus upon whatever i choose to do with myself? to be able to leave the Tower not as a mage but as a normal person?

 

I am honestly surprised it isn't more popular.

 

I think people attach too much importance upon emotion in our reality anyway, why would i find fault with its removal in fiction? So i am afraid you're appeal to fear and or emotion will not find much luck with me in that regard.

[Herr Uhl]

As with any other substance, it has its dangers. Mercury is pretty dangerous but we still make ligthbulbs out of it.
Also, I don't recall lyrium being conbustible.

Dwarves make their explosives with lyrium dust, it was explored in Awakening. And if you're going to compare it to any substance, I'd suggest something radioactive rather than poisonous.

[Herr Uhl]

The removal of emotional construct, the inability to be possessed, the ability to merely focus upon whatever i choose to do with myself? to be able to leave the Tower not as a mage but as a normal person?

 

Really? Being tranquil constitutes being a "normal person".

 

Why not tranquilize the "normal people" if it is such a small deal. They'd make a killing enchanting items after all according to you.

[Master Warder Z_]

Really? Being tranquil constitutes being a "normal person".

 

Why not tranquilize the "normal people" if it is such a small deal. They'd make a killing enchanting items after all according to you.

 

Depends upon what context you apply normalcy to i suppose, not having access to the Arcane for example.

 

I have actually proposed something along those lines being to Templars, Unyielding, Unfeeling warriors that cannot show emotion or pity.

[Dean_the_Young]

Really? Being tranquil constitutes being a "normal person".

 

Why not tranquilize the "normal people" if it is such a small deal. They'd make a killing enchanting items after all according to you.

 

Having dealt with mentally troubled people with extreme and/or volatile emotions, I can tell you that there are "normal people" out there for whom Tranquility would be appealing on its own grounds. The chance to not only escape emotional turmoil, but also be well placed to be a productive member of society, can be extremely powerful. You could also likely find people who might be willing to make the emotional sacrifice in exchange for a chance to enter a profitable field: say they arrange a contract in which their gains as a Tranquil go to support families or loved ones they couldn't provide for otherwise. And this isn't even approaching situations in which people might find Tranquility a preferable punishment to other things- death, exile, etc.

 

So it's actually a legitimate question. Why not open up Tranquility to the masses?

[MisterJB]

Personally, I use the term normal person because I grew weary of having the rest of Thedas being defined by mages (mundane) and in comparison to mages (non-mage).

 

I wonder if Tranquility is appliable to normal people. Theoretically, there's no reason it shouldn't but I suspect we would have seen some by now if it was possible.

[wcholcombe]

Keeping the Circles open is an expense of the Chantry, for all intents and purposes, so I find the disconnect to be a little tenuous. But the point is taken, it's not their primary source of income. 

No, Gaider has flat out stated money from the enchantments and such of the tower doesn't go into the Chantry's coffers.  It is controlled by whatever the fraternity is that controls money in the tower.

 

One of the Orlesian Circles routinely invites nobles to banquets that are described as better then the Empresses's.

 

The chantry money comes from their control of lyrium trade and principallly as in the real world-tithing from the faithful.

[wcholcombe]

Why not just use tranquilization as a penal system for criminals in general.  There isn't anything we have seen that says a person has to be a tranquil mage to enchant have we?

[Dean_the_Young]

Why not just use tranquilization as a penal system for criminals in general. 

 

Tranquility should be separated from punishment to avoid/minimize the stigma of its actual purpose: as a justifiable option for mages who aren't trusted as reliable, but allowing them to take a path short of death. Using it as a punishment changes that already fragile context.

 

About the only Mundane context I could see as not muddying those waters for the worse would be Templars- I can very easily see a punishment for a Templar who seriously abuses their charges to be made tranquil.

[Hellion Rex]

Why not just use tranquilization as a penal system for criminals in general.  There isn't anything we have seen that says a person has to be a tranquil mage to enchant have we?

Have they ever attempted to Tranquil a non mage? How do we know if it will even work? We have no evidence of a mundane being made Tranquil, except for that one child that was born that way.