226 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Ah, yes, "heroism."

It's a RP decision, but some of my Shepards (the ones I see as more cautious) judge that Leviathan is too dangerous to align ourselves with and back off before that final mission while others complete it.

[grey_wind]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but other than the obvious ones already mentioned (Leng, Allers, Jacob), for me it would be Eve.

 

It seemed like the writers were aiming to make her the wise-female-pacifist-sage, the Yang to Wreav's Yin, the guiding light to make sure Wrex never strayed off his path.

 

But to me, she comes across as a simpleton and an idiot.

 

"The females will not allow the males to use their progeny for war." Are you sh!tting me?! You're telling me there are no female Krogan who want vengeance for the Genophage? That every Krogan male is a gentleman who respects the females' consent?

 

She doesn't even give a half decent strategy for how she plans to control the Krogan (the same is true of Wrex). You have to go on her (naive) word alone that everything will be fine if you cure the Genophage.

[SporkFu]

Well there's no way of knowing the Leviathans lifespan or reproductive cycle, or even how they reproduce. I would say that their numbers probably aren't too great, and they certainly aren't infallible, but... they could have orbs scattered throughout the galaxy that no one even knows about. You don't hide from the reapers for millions of years without contingency plans.

 

Clearly the reapers are the only things that they feel threatened by, so once shep removes that threat, who knows what they'll do next.

[DeinonSlayer]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but other than the obvious ones already mentioned (Leng, Allers, Jacob), for me it would be Eve.

It seemed like the writers were aiming to make her the wise-female-pacifist-sage, the Yang to Wreav's Yin, the guiding light to make sure Wrex never strayed off his path.

But to me, she comes across as a simpleton and an idiot.

"The females will not allow the males to use their progeny for war." Are you sh!tting me?! You're telling me there are no female Krogan who want vengeance for the Genophage? That every Krogan male is a gentleman who respects the females' consent?

She doesn't even give a half decent strategy for how she plans to control the Krogan (the same is true of Wrex). You have to go on her (naive) word alone that everything will be fine if you cure the Genophage.

This. We should have had the opportunity to challenge Wrex on whether universal distribution was really a good idea. From the framework he outlined in ME2, really, the cure undermines his own power base.

Well there's no way of knowing the Leviathans lifespan or reproductive cycle, or even how they reproduce.

Very clumsily.

[Daemul]

When I said that the BSN was bad with accents, it wasn't intended as criticism. It was just an observation.

 

It isn't just limited to Javik either. Lots of people mistook Dr. Michel's accent for anything but French. I even had one poster who argued with me that it was Polish or something like that.

I remember someone on old BSN(RIP) once trying to convince me that Donovan Hocks accent was Scottish, it was a ludicrous conversation. Maybe it's because I've had so much exposure to different accents due to travelling all around the world, but I don't understand how you could mistake Hocks accent for being anything other than South African(Afrikaans variant). The Javik one is more ridiculous, he sounds nothing like a Jamaican.

[Barquiel]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but other than the obvious ones already mentioned (Leng, Allers, Jacob), for me it would be Eve.

 

It seemed like the writers were aiming to make her the wise-female-pacifist-sage, the Yang to Wreav's Yin, the guiding light to make sure Wrex never strayed off his path.

 

But to me, she comes across as a simpleton and an idiot.

 

"The females will not allow the males to use their progeny for war." Are you sh!tting me?! You're telling me there are no female Krogan who want vengeance for the Genophage? That every Krogan male is a gentleman who respects the females' consent?

 

She doesn't even give a half decent strategy for how she plans to control the Krogan (the same is true of Wrex). You have to go on her (naive) word alone that everything will be fine if you cure the Genophage.

 

Well, she wants Shepard to cure the genophage. I think it makes sense that she's not completely unbiased/honest...and tries to manipulate Shepard a bit.

[CrutchCricket]

They're not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. We've talked about this before. Even if they have no innate methods of propulsion, it'd be child's play to subvert any security cordon organics might set up. Without the Reapers, nothing short of their complete destruction would hold them.

[DeinonSlayer]

I wouldn't be so sure. We've talked about this before. Even if they have no innate methods of propulsion, it'd be child's play to subvert any security cordon organics might set up. Without the Reapers, nothing short of their complete destruction would hold them.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[Daemul]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but other than the obvious ones already mentioned (Leng, Allers, Jacob), for me it would be Eve.

 

It seemed like the writers were aiming to make her the wise-female-pacifist-sage, the Yang to Wreav's Yin, the guiding light to make sure Wrex never strayed off his path.

 

But to me, she comes across as a simpleton and an idiot.

 

"The females will not allow the males to use their progeny for war." Are you sh!tting me?! You're telling me there are no female Krogan who want vengeance for the Genophage? That every Krogan male is a gentleman who respects the females' consent?

 

She doesn't even give a half decent strategy for how she plans to control the Krogan (the same is true of Wrex). You have to go on her (naive) word alone that everything will be fine if you cure the Genophage.

I agree, we're expected to believe that two people, TWO, can somehow control billions of individuals who all have their own agendas and views on what the Krogan should do. This is my response:

 

[grey_wind]

This. We should have had the opportunity to challenge Wrex on whether universal distribution was really a good idea. From the framework he outlined in ME2, really, the cure undermines his own power base.

I'm still not even sure why Wrex was demanding a full cure. He himself admitted in ME1 that the problem was never the Genophage itself but rather the psychological reaction of the Krogan to it because they falsely believed it to be a species-wide death sentence.

 

Given the strategy he employed in ME2 to rise to power, the most logical course of action would have been to simply ask for a slight raise in fertility rates. Going from a 0.01% fertility rate to even 0.05% would ensure that the species would have a manageable population boom that averts extinction but doesn't risk overpopulation. Hell, it would even give the Krogan their much needed boost in morale.

 

The entire Genophage arc in ME3 reeks of the writers desperately trying to write a (false) binary dilemma with the stupid caveat that not curing the Genophage will somehow guarantee Krogan extinction.

[CrutchCricket]

But you already have the psycho superpowered biotic in ack, there was no need for two. Now it Jack had been cut, then I could see the significance of the choice.

 

And I know I'll get SUPER flack for this, but Kasumi was that one character for me. Why would I need a thief on a suicide mission to an alien world?

 

Yes but no sane organization leader would ever want a psycho convict that hates their guts going on one of the most sensitive missions they've ever launched.

 

Jack's recruitment makes no sense. Samara's does.

 

And blasphemy on the rest. Kasumi is awesome. It is flat out stated she's recruited for her stealth and tech skills though. And those ninja flips on her loyalty mission imply she's more than just a thief. They should've definitely expanded on that. I imagine she had actual ninja-like training in assassination but prefers thievery. Her tone when she says "that's cute- an assassin with a heart" (Thane's recruitment mission) is sardonic and a tad dismissive, implying she's not fond of them.

 

So much potential for backstory- and look how they wasted it.

 

I don't think he's a thrall. This is going to likely go back to the whole case of 'Shepard immunity' but still. The Leviathans never controlled him so much as made him comatose while holding him in their mind to converse with him, something they aren't seen to be doing with anyone else.

 

I agree. Also Leviathan control, unlike indoctrination is not permanent. If they don't have constant access, either directly or through their orbs, the potential thrall still has their own mind.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm still not even sure why Wrex was demanding a full cure. He himself admitted in ME1 that the problem was never the Genophage itself, but rather the psychological reaction of the Krogan to it because they falsely believed it to be species-wide death sentence.

Given the strategy he employed in ME2 to rise to power, the most logical course of action would have been to simply ask for a slight raise in fertility rates. Going from a 0.01% fertility rate to even 0.05% would ensure that the species would have a manageable population boom that averts extinction but doesn't risk overpopulation. Hell, it would even give the Krogan their much needed boost in morale.

The entire Genophage arc in ME3 reeks of the writers desperately trying to write a (false) binary dilemma with the stupid caveat that not curing the Genophage will somehow guarantee Krogan extinction.

Pretty much. Still not as bad as what they did to Rannoch, but just about everything Mordin argued in ME2 went out the window. The only remaining advocates for the genophage in ME3 are a shrill racist Shepard is railroaded into fighting with in the summit and a short-lived STG operative who only shows up if Kirrahe is dead (Tolan doesn't bow down before The Shepard, which to some on these boards is a nigh-capital offense in itself).

[KaiserShep]

(Tolan doesn't bow down before The Shepard, which to some on these boards is a nigh-capital offense in itself).

 

It is not the gun they fear; it is my divine power. ~ Cmdr "Xerxes" Shepard

[Daemul]

I love Tolan, he knows whats up.

[SwobyJ]

But you already have the psycho superpowered biotic in ack, there was no need for two. Now it Jack had been cut, then I could see the significance of the choice.

 

And I know I'll get SUPER flack for this, but Kasumi was that one character for me. Why would I need a thief on a suicide mission to an alien world?

 

By superpowered, I also mean could dominate the minds of people. Jack cannot do that. Samara cannot do that.

 

Just even an optional scene resolution or two. Like Javik later did on Thessia with that Asari.

[SwobyJ]

Sex/murder ... unless Shepard is mentally strong enough to turn her down and chooses to. Which is funny, considering a mentally-weak Shepard will only be able to side with Samara in the biotic-deadlock (you'd think he/she would be compelled to Morinth in that case).

 

Actually, no. Morinth's power is a form of Domination (even if its sweetly spoken like hypnosis). She's taking over Shepard's mind, but not replacing or weakening his will once its brought back by Samara's return.

 

They give a better example of mind domination in Leviathan DLC. Once you wake up from it, sure, your mind might be more exposed to future attacks, but as it is, you are yourself again.

 

So if Samara was required to snap you out of it, there's no choice at that point. Morinth has to go. If you were resistant enough already, then there's no shock/annoyance/whathaveyou at what was done (since nothing was done), and you'll be more willing to take Morinth.

 

It's not the same as indoctrination or whatever. Shep's mind isn't being overwritten by Morinth's will. It's just being attuned to it.

[SwobyJ]

Between the nosebleed and the autodialogue in the shuttle after resurfacing, I suspect Shepard is already a Leviathan thrall at the end of the DLC. If that's the case, good luck enforcing the policy of destroying those orbs. I'd just as soon not have their help.

 

Not how it works. It DOES, perhaps, mean that if he's near an orb, it'd be easier to take him over than otherwise. Considering his seeming resistance even in the presence of Leviathans, I don't think it's as big of a deal as Indoctrination itself.

 

In a somewhat similar route, like with the Thorians, once you eliminate/cut off the source of the dominating signal, you're pretty much good.

 

I understand that the DLC liked to use Indoctrination and Enthrallment interchangeably, but I think that was due to novelty and conversational/dramatic reasons. They at least have somewhat different methods, processes, and results.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I wouldn't be so sure. We've talked about this before. Even if they have no innate methods of propulsion, it'd be child's play to subvert any security cordon organics might set up. Without the Reapers, nothing short of their complete destruction would hold them.

 

Personally, I'd wonder how they'd be able to subvert a security cordon from orbit, or, at most, a good ways distance from the planet. Put the star on charts as a secure military installation and put up a battlestation with warnings to not land on the planet. I honestly don't see how they'd be able to move off world without thralls, and with no orbs, there's no way to control anyone. And it does look like their power has a limited range. It's not able to reach up to the Normandy in orbit, and it's not able to reach a Reaper hanging several kilometers above.

[SwobyJ]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but other than the obvious ones already mentioned (Leng, Allers, Jacob), for me it would be Eve.

 

It seemed like the writers were aiming to make her the wise-female-pacifist-sage, the Yang to Wreav's Yin, the guiding light to make sure Wrex never strayed off his path.

 

But to me, she comes across as a simpleton and an idiot.

 

"The females will not allow the males to use their progeny for war." Are you sh!tting me?! You're telling me there are no female Krogan who want vengeance for the Genophage? That every Krogan male is a gentleman who respects the females' consent?

 

She doesn't even give a half decent strategy for how she plans to control the Krogan (the same is true of Wrex). You have to go on her (naive) word alone that everything will be fine if you cure the Genophage.

 

This is possibly partially 'fixed' in EU content, the most recent Foundations issue with a hostile female krogan.

 

But yeah I agree. In terms of gender issues, she only made me have cynicism about the females just as much as the males. Yay. "The females" - oh come off it.

 

However, I actually consider this just a character trait. She's idealistic, and one of the more idealistic Krogan. And she describes a history of the Krogan that time forgot - that they were once relatively forward thinking, but their aggressive natures mixed with technological progression brought disaster to Tuchanka. Before Salarians even arrived.

 

I like her story. Have personal issue with how its told. I got over it though. (not saying you have to)

[SwobyJ]

Well there's no way of knowing the Leviathans lifespan or reproductive cycle, or even how they reproduce. I would say that their numbers probably aren't too great, and they certainly aren't infallible, but... they could have orbs scattered throughout the galaxy that no one even knows about. You don't hide from the reapers for millions of years without contingency plans.

 

Clearly the reapers are the only things that they feel threatened by, so once shep removes that threat, who knows what they'll do next.

 

They very very very very very likely have orbs in many places.

 

They've been watching Shepard. I know this is crazy theory for others, but I think its made pretty evident that combined with sidequests, DLCs, etc, we understand enough to know that Leviathans have a vested interest in how organics perform against the Reapers.

[SwobyJ]

Well, she wants Shepard to cure the genophage. I think it makes sense that she's not completely unbiased/honest...and tries to manipulate Shepard a bit.

 

(sorry for lack of multiquoting but I'm reading the thread bit by bit lol)

Oh she's *definitely* manipulating Shepard.

 

But more via inspiration, than conspiracy/lying/secrets/etc.

 

She sees Shepard as a hope for something, so she runs with it, and hopes that her *own* faith in him isn't misplaced.

 

So yeah, it's a manipulation, but in the sense that one could see all of society as a negotiation + manipulation + conflict.

[CrutchCricket]

Personally, I'd wonder how they'd be able to subvert a security cordon from orbit, or, at most, a good ways distance from the planet. Put the star on charts as a secure military installation and put up a battlestation with warnings to not land on the planet. I honestly don't see how they'd be able to move off world without thralls, and with no orbs, there's no way to control anyone. And it does look like their power has a limited range. It's not able to reach up to the Normandy in orbit, and it's not able to reach a Reaper hanging several kilometers above.

 

You're taking a lot for granted such as the ability to account for all the orbs they've ever put out, the ability to destroy all of them in the chaos of the aftermath (and to confirm destruction), the ability to detect any stealth ship or counter any advancement in stealth ships, the ability to completely cover an entire planet under unceasing, unyielding observation indefinitely, the assumption that the Leviathans haven't already subverted one or more enthrallment teams to serve as sleeper agents in case we win, or to seek out a new world and facilitate relocation in case we don't*, as well as the prevention of sheer organic stupidity and luck.

 

To name a few.

 

And all that's generously assuming Leviathans have no method of innate propulsion or no local resources to create it, as well as no way to get more orbs offworld on their own. Hell they could fling the damn things like thersher spores for all we know.

 

*This one's particularly important, nay vital. If the Reapers won they'd head to Despoina in force to investigate and neutralize the last of their creators. The Leviathans have to account and plan for this eventuality. I wouldn't be surprised if that was their only reason for getting involved. I certainly wouldn't expect them to obey "the Shepard".

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You're taking a lot for granted such as the ability to account for all the orbs they've ever put out, the ability to destroy all of them in the chaos of the aftermath (and to confirm destruction), the ability to detect any stealth ship or counter any advancement in stealth ships, the ability to completely cover an entire planet under unceasing, unyielding observation indefinitely, the assumption that the Leviathans haven't already subverted one or more enthrallment teams to serve as sleeper agents in case we win, or to seek out a new world and facilitate relocation in case we don't*, as well as the prevention of sheer organic stupidity and luck.

 

To name a few.

 

And all that's generously assuming Leviathans have no method of innate propulsion or no local resources to create it, as well as no way to get more orbs offworld on their own. Hell they could fling the damn things like thersher spores for all we know.

 

*This one's particularly important, nay vital. If the Reapers won they'd head to Despoina in force to investigate and neutralize the last of their creators. The Leviathans have to account and plan for this eventuality. I wouldn't be surprised if that was their only reason for getting involved. I certainly wouldn't expect them to obey "the Shepard".

 

I'm aware of the limitations of the Orbs number. I know that there are likely going to more hidden out in the galaxy. I'm suggesting destroying any of the ones given to us or used by us to mitigate the risk as much as possible.

 

As for your idea on the stealth ship, I'm just going to say that you're crossing into paranoia with that. I know not to underestimate the Leviathans, but I really think you're overestimating them.

 

Also, the observation isn't so much to cover the entire planet. It's more to keep people out. You're making just as many, if not more assumptions, as me. The only point I'd take in any kind of serious contention is the idea that more science teams might be enthralled. Also, preventing organic stupidity is easy. Exploit their greed. I change something. Instead of marking the system as a military reserve, I'd mark it as a scouted system that was surveyed and found to have nothing in the way of valuable resources or opportunity. It'll get ignored, and it's in a region of space that is already fairly remote. No ones going to bother with it if there's nothing there.

 

As I said, I really think you're overestimating their capabilities in an effort to be 'crazy prepared'. To be frank, it comes off as extremely unrealistic and paranoid. You're putting all these what-if's together and then ascribing them to the Leviathans, and relying on a 'we don't know that they can't' ideal to justify it.

 

And I honestly believe they didn't plan for that eventuality. I don't believe the Leviathans are the 'crazy prepared' species you're making them out to be. I think that they'd start thinking about it once Shepard brings it to their attention, but I think they have too many behavioral issues to plan for the eventuality of being discovered. I think we'll be fine as long as no new thralls come to the planet. In fact, with all the Reaper tech scattered across the galaxy post-destroy, we'll have plenty of things waiting for them. In fact, you'd probably be able to mitigate the stealth ship with the Reaper sensors.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I agree, we're expected to believe that two people, TWO, can somehow control billions of individuals who all have their own agendas and views on what the Krogan should do.

 

Why would we have to believe that?

 

Wrex does clearly have some followers beforehand, because he wouldn't have lasted long as Urdnot leader otherwise. The krogan on Tuchanka in ME2 seem to have mixed opinions about him, so if he were really acting as a lone wolf and there were credible alternatives, he'd probably be deposed pretty quickly. At least two rival clans, Weyrloc and Gatatog, are marginalized by the end of ME2 if you do Mordin's and Grunt's loyalty missions. And I'd have to go back and watch the scene again, but when Wrex and Wreav have their argument in ME3, I *think* each of them seem to have the support of some, but not all, of the other krogan present.

 

I'd also argue that Wrex and Bakara are gathering support by convincing rather than controlling. Notice that when Wrex simply tells Wreav to shut up and head-butts him, that actually doesn't get him anywhere, as Wreav stands back up and pulls a gun. It's Bakara's argument, echoed by Shepard and Wrex, that seems to get everyone on the same side, at least long enough to go fight the Reaper and dispense the cure. Bakara's efforts in the Kelphic valley after Shepard leaves also appear to be aimed at shoring up popular support. Plus, assuming that the war is "won" in some way (i.e. no Refuse scenario), Wrex and Bakara will likely benefit from a huge "rally around the flag" effect between that and the genophage cure.

 

If the situation were presented as very few krogan actually supporting Wrex's ideas and instead having this new direction imposed by force by Wrex and Bakara, then sure, it would all fall apart pretty quickly. But that doesn't seem to be the case, even *before* they bargain for a genophage cure and lead the krogan onto the winning side of a galactic war.