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No Companion Day One DLC


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#76
AlanC9

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But regardless - the content you released at the time of your original publishing was all priced and released as one product. Updates and revisions obviously represent work done after the initial release. Charging extra for things completed before the initial release is the crux of the problem people have with D1DLC.

 

Having worked in production that strikes me as, bluntly, an idiotic concern. We control the production schedule, and it serves our needs. We plan to finish things when we plan to sell them.

 

If you can't charge extra for extra things completed before the original release, that doesn't mean you can't charge extra for them. It means that you wait to complete them until you can charge for them.

 

Edit: but of course, your argument -- if that's the right term for what you're doing here -- does not depend on the concern being non-idiotic, or even rational. So this in no way undermines your point.



#77
AlanC9

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Depends for Bioware it has been the first day for some of the dlc. The question is if Bioware waits 30 or more for the first dlc how many gamers will still be playing? Will gamers start up a new game for the dlc. If the dlc can be played at anytime during the game like Legacy and MotA then any save game file would do.

 

 

That's exactly the problem. People finish games and move on. 



#78
berelinde

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Yet you do not charge extra for people to read your addendum/appendices. If you did in the academic world, it would be considered unethical. If you do so in the entertainment world... less so. But still debatable.

Actually, you do. Most don't even give you the opportunity to opt out. Scientific journals are obtained through subscription. A game-world analogy would be "All game sales include the purchase of a Season Pass for the game and all associated DLC." Offering DLC piecemeal rather than as a subscription is a courtesy for players who may want to select DLC individually rather than being forced to pay for all of it whether they want it or not.

 

Perhaps you think the cost of the game and the season pass should be included. At that point, all you're saying is that the price of the game is too high.



#79
Jeremiah12LGeek

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I'm of the opinion that if the DLC is available the same day as release, then it should have been part of the core game in the first place.

 

I realize that's no longer how DLC works for games, but I feel that it's at least a little disingenuous to create content specifically for the purpose of charging extra for it on the day of the game's release.

 

I much prefer playing the game opening day knowing that I have all the intended content available to me, so I would be much more content with that.

 

That having been said, I never buy games on opening day, anymore. I always wait at least a week for bug reports and user reviews to come in.



#80
Fast Jimmy

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Actually, you do. Most don't even give you the opportunity to opt out. Scientific journals are obtained through subscription. A game-world analogy would be "All game sales include the purchase of a Season Pass for the game and all associated DLC." Offering DLC piecemeal rather than as a subscription is a courtesy for players who may want to select DLC individually rather than being forced to pay for all of it whether they want it or not.

Perhaps you think the cost of the game and the season pass should be included. At that point, all you're saying is that the price of the game is too high.


Actually, quote the contrary. I'm fine with the concept of a $80 video game, although I am against the concept of a game release for $60 with $15 extra of DLC content on its first day.

Again, it is the perception of nickel and diming versus offering a finished product, regardless of the price tag.

#81
TrixX

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Actually, quote the contrary. I'm fine with the concept of a $80 video game, although I am against the concept of a game release for $60 with $15 extra of DLC content on its first day.

Again, it is the perception of nickel and diming versus offering a finished product, regardless of the price tag.

LOL you don't live in Australia then do you.

 

Prices here are so inflated that if you go to a normal store you pay $70-100 for a standard PC game, Conoles are around 10-20% more than PC (if you can still find PC games at a store these days...). On top of that Online stores like Steam, Origin etcetera price things to match the Australia region as though there's an agreement with the main street stores (I believe there is something like that). So for a $40-50 game in the USA Australians pay $70-100. It's bordering on criminal in the cost difference, hence the explosion of CD-Key sales sites that service Australia as well as many other workaround solutions.

 

One of the biggest offenders recently was by Codemasters with the release of GRID 2. It had a game price of $80 on release (compared to the rest of the worlds $50 or equivalent) then each DLC pack had the same percentage added on top as the main game. Total cost of the game was an extortionate $148.99 with all the DLC accounted for (though that's using today's DLC prices as I can't remember the original prices). Just over 6 months after release (sales were dreadful, like the game) they released a "Reloaded" version of the game (the warez version name being used is pretty ironic) with all DLC and the original game for the sum total of $50. Had they originally released at that price, their sales would have been off the charts, despite the rather crappy game due to the value mark.

 

Quite often Developers and Publishers miss the sweet spot for sales and overcharge as a result. Sales are lower and the profits are actually lower because of the sales density outweighing the price differential. Perceived quality is also a massive marker to watch, but in this case is less important.

 

Back to the Australia tax issue, BioWare, I bloody hope you guys aren't gonna pull the BS EA has tried in recent years and overcharge the Antipodean's again. Keep those prices in line with the USA/Europe and you'll find you actually get a lot more respect for it, price gouge again and expect a s##t storm.



#82
Fast Jimmy

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I apologize - I do know what the Aussies are paying for games and it is, definitely, criminal. You have my sympathies.

That doesn't really change my stance, personally, simply because two practices I don't personally agree with shouldn't be acceptable because they slightly reduce he pain of each other. I hope you can empathize with that.
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#83
Amfortas

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I had no probelm with dlc companions like Zaeed or Shale that were just supposed to encourage buying the game new.

 

I'm not even strongly against day 1 DLC that we have to pay for. What I don't like is that somehow the price/content ratio is way higher for the dlc than what it is for the base game. The only DLC Bioware has released that I consider worth buying was Citadel, despite the bad jokes and the most annoying character bioware has ever created. Maybe Shadow Broker as well.

 

But Javik, he is quite overpriced and I've never considered buying him, my problem with Javik has never been that he was day 1. But I have to say, when I found out by accident that marking Javik is recruited in the save editor allowed me to access a large part of the content, it felt wrong.

 

Good news anyway, I just hope that when they do release DLC, it is worth buying.



#84
Realmzmaster

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Worth buying is subjective. That bar differs with each individual gamer. What is worth buying to one gamer may not be worth buying to another. Bioware can only produce the game and the dlc and let the sales fall where they may.



#85
Fast Jimmy

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Worth buying is subjective. That bar differs with each individual gamer. What is worth buying to one gamer may not be worth buying to another. Bioware can only produce the game and the dlc and let the sales fall where they may.


And determine it's price point, of course.

They determine the breadth and substance of the content of the DLC, determine when it is released and determine how much it costs. So... to me, they control everything. There's very little "let the chips fall where they may" going on, at least not any less than any other product for any other business.

#86
Sylvius the Mad

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A fair enough stance. However, on first glance, one of those statements has instant appeal over the other.

Which is why the statement is made, I suspect.



#87
Fast Jimmy

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Which is why the statement is made, I suspect.


True. Especially when the developer in question derives its primary income not from sales of its own game, but from its DRM service, GOG.com.

But still - it doesn't make any attempt on Bioware's part any more palatable.

#88
Rawgrim

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I apologize - I do know what the Aussies are paying for games and it is, definitely, criminal. You have my sympathies.

That doesn't really change my stance, personally, simply because two practices I don't personally agree with shouldn't be acceptable because they slightly reduce he pain of each other. I hope you can empathize with that.

 

500-600 kroners for a new game up here in Norway. 1 dollar = 5.5 kroners. Round about.



#89
Fast Jimmy

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500-600 kroners for a new game up here in Norway. 1 dollar = 5.5 kroners. Round about.


I just don't get it. Nor do I get why groups like Steam would not have stable prices across all countries.

#90
Realmzmaster

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I just don't get it. Not do I get why groups like Steam would not have stable prices across all countries.

 

Sometimes it has to do with agreements with retail establishments in a particular country or the country protecting its retail market. The agreement may require that digital sales do not undercut the retail market of physical copies of the product.



#91
Rawgrim

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I just don't get it. Not do I get why groups like Steam would not have stable prices across all countries.

 

 

Norway tax everything to death. That is part of the problem up here, of course.



#92
Fast Jimmy

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Norway tax everything to death. That is part of the problem up here, of course.


When you go to purchase something through Steam, does it show you the price as something like 350 Krokas, then shows the tax as being the additional amount? If I was Steam and it was government taxes or laws based on retail store agreements, I would show the standard price everyone pays on Steam (in the respective currency, of course) and then reflect just how much the country in question is raising the price. That would be accurate and informative to people to know the reasons why such a price hike was occuring.

#93
Allan Schumacher

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For better or worse I think it's also just price discrimination.  While for the life of me I don't know why Australia's games are more expensive, the idea that "the price should be the same everywhere" need not apply.  I think it's fair to price it accordingly for a particular region, in large part because this type of price discrimination can make the software more readily available in poorer regions where even $50-$60 is completely untenable.

 

World of Warcraft does this with China, from what I understand.  Though, perhaps paradoxically, I wonder if there's hesitation to do stuff like this beyond simply infrastructure because people could simply circumvent regional pricing by finding a way to exploit a much lower price from a different region that is poorer.  Might be a situation where those people just have to wait for the price to drop which is a bit unfortunately for them.



#94
Fast Jimmy

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For better or worse I think it's also just price discrimination. While for the life of me I don't know why Australia's games are more expensive, the idea that "the price should be the same everywhere" need not apply. I think it's fair to price it accordingly for a particular region, in large part because this type of price discrimination can make the software more readily available in poorer regions where even $50-$60 is completely untenable.

World of Warcraft does this with China, from what I understand. Though, perhaps paradoxically, I wonder if there's hesitation to do stuff like this beyond simply infrastructure because people could simply circumvent regional pricing by finding a way to exploit a much lower price from a different region that is poorer. Might be a situation where those people just have to wait for the price to drop which is a bit unfortunately for them.


Variable pricing, in my experience, does not belong in digitally distributed products. As far more often than not, it results in price gouging, not regional equity. If that were the case, you'd hear about how expensive (legally) buying software is in the US or Europe and how dirt cheap it is in third world countries. But that is almost never the case. If you ask me, the China/WoW example would probably better be served by the publishers/distributors of the content trying to negotiate that sort of agreement on the back end as a one-off rather than have regional pricing be the standard.

After all, we aren't talking about adding international shipping costs, or any extra resources being involved. It is a purely digital transaction. If my IP address registered as Australian instead of North American, that is little reason why a product should cost more or less to download. Just like your concern that people may abuse a regional pricing system for poorer countries to get games cheaper, I'm surprised more people in Norway or Australia don't engage in a IP address ping server with Steam to make it appear they are in a different country. Or maybe they do?

#95
Allan Schumacher

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Variable pricing, in my experience, does not belong in digitally distributed products.

 

Isn't this a privileged perspective, though?  You're effectively saying that people in poorer countries shouldn't have access to the game.  The only way to mandate what you are asking for is to actively deny other people from getting the goods that you want.

 

 

 

 

After all, we aren't talking about adding international shipping costs, or any extra resources being involved. It is a purely digital transaction. If my IP address registered as Australian instead of North American, that is little reason why a product should cost more or less to download.

 

Depending on your economical perspectives, the cost of something is precisely what the user is willing to pay for it.  I'm not a fan of either the intrinsic theory of value or the cost of production theory of value.  If Sylvius wants to pay $100 for a game that I think is worth $40, then it's clear we subjectively value the game differently.  Software already has implemented price discrimination in various ways, even when it's a physical good.  It happens with big things like automobiles too.  They can sell me something at higher value, even if it's made next door, simply because I am capable (and willing) to pay for it at that price.


Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 03 avril 2014 - 08:51 .
Edited to say "even when it's a physical good"


#96
Fast Jimmy

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Isn't this a privileged perspective, though? You're effectively saying that people in poorer countries shouldn't have access to the game. The only way to mandate what you are asking for is to actively deny other people from getting the goods that you want.


I think we may be taking this down to two different paths of the situation. While I do think your suggestion of having the ability to reduce the price of a game for region is good, I'd also wager it is not often utilized and would be the smaller of two problems.

For instance, do you think there are more cases of lower income countries where the developer is working to get the video game players their games for cheaper, or video game purchases being made in Australia or Norway? Tens of millions of games are bought in these countries every year (although not all of these are digital obviously) but I am unsure how many developers are approaching these countries altruistically.

For instance, you stated that Blizzard sold reduced price copies of WoW to Chinese players. That's very cool. But the game is a subscription based game... so did they get their accounts for free? Or did Blizzard have a very real chance of making that money back over the course of the next few years? I don't know the details, but I also have not really heard of regions getting discounts below the MSRP very often, if at all.

Depending on your economical perspectives, the cost of something is precisely what the user is willing to pay for it. I'm not a fan of either the intrinsic theory of value or the cost of production theory of value. If Sylvius wants to pay $100 for a game that I think is worth $40, then it's clear we subjectively value the game differently. Software already has implemented price discrimination in various ways, even when there's a digital good. It happens with big things like automobiles too. They can sell me something at higher value, even if it's made next door, simply because I am capable (and willing) to pay for it at that price.


I get that... but that's not really the issue at hand. Steam sells games. They are the same price for everyone. It isn't a Kickstarter campaign where we can go in at different pledge levels and still get the same game end product, but a straight transactional interaction. You can't go into Wal-Mart and say "this vacuum cleaner is worth only $60 to me" and expect to buy it if $60 is less than the price tag.

Now... there's very valid reasons why that vacuum cleaner might not be the same price in North America as it is in Norway or Australia. If it is manufactured and distributed closer to these countries than NA, it might cost less to ship it, or there may be local partnerships that offer discounts to retailers that they pass onto the consumer. There may be mail-in rebates only available in certain countries. The overall market demand for vacuums may be higher in one area versus another, causing natural market fluctuation.

But online, in a digital transaction, all of that disappears. It's not like there is a limited supply of games, that they have to transfer them through freight or that the cost to assemble the digital download depends on region-specific resources... it's just a digital piece of property. None of the normal factors that would affect price variance come into play.

If a developer sells a game via Steam, they don't have a separate price request if they happen to sell a copy in Papua New Guinea or San Marcos... the price is the price. Now, regional laws/regulations may cause Steam to raise the price to be compliant, but it isn't a matter where Steam takes the GDP of every country and adjusts the price based on currency strength and median income... they charge what the developer tells them to charge, plus tax and other regulatory fees that are country specific.

If a developer wants to change the price for Papua New Guinea, I'm sure they could, if they worked it out through Steam. However, I don't think Steam, as a standard, should take region into consideration unless they are legally required to do so... and at which time I think it would be wise of them to show the gamer how much their local government is adding to their charge in said transaction.

#97
Allan Schumacher

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I think we may be taking this down to two different paths of the situation. While I do think your suggestion of having the ability to reduce the price of a game for region is good, I'd also wager it is not often utilized and would be the smaller of two problems.

 

Is this the way it actually is, or is it a perception chosen by yourself?  On what basis are you wagering its level of utilization?

 

On a personal level I'd much rather stuff like Price Discrimination be used as a means to counter piracy, rather than simply never making the product available at a price that is possible.

 

 

For instance, you stated that Blizzard sold reduced price copies of WoW to Chinese players. That's very cool. But the game is a subscription based game... so did they get their accounts for free? Or did Blizzard have a very real chance of making that money back over the course of the next few years? I don't know the details, but I also have not really heard of regions getting discounts below the MSRP very often, if at all.

 

Note: I never said Blizzard sold reduced price copies of WoW.  The subscription cost of WoW in China is cheaper than it is in North America (and it's actually licensed out, so the final cut Blizzard gets per user is much less than they get from North America/Europe).  To be clear: Chinese players literally pay less to play the game than North American users do.

 

 

 

I get that... but that's not really the issue at hand. Steam sells games. They are the same price for everyone. It isn't a Kickstarter campaign where we can go in at different pledge levels and still get the same game end product, but a straight transactional interaction. You can't go into Wal-Mart and say "this vacuum cleaner is worth only $60 to me" and expect to buy it if $60 is less than the price tag.

 

 

It seems my point wasn't clear.  I was talking about theories of value, and if you're going with a "it costs this much to make, so it should cost this much to sell" then you're applying the production costs theory of value, which is an objective measurement (the cost of a product is determined by the cost to make the product).  I pointed out the example with Sylvius and I because it demonstrates that value is subjective.  You're right, I can't say "This vacuum cleaner isn't worth $60 to me" and pay less very often.  But you and I are capable of paying $50 for a video game at release.  For some parts of the world, that just isn't possible.  To mandate that developers must sell their digital goods at the same price everywhere, you mandate that poorer countries of the world are denied products by which supply and shipping should cause no issues.

 

 

In an idealized world, people will pay what they feel the product is worth, meaning that if BG2 were to come out, there'd be no price tag and Sylvius would just pay his $100 (or whatever he values the game at).  But the world isn't ideal, so prices get set.  And as an anecdote, I have chosen to change how I look at purchasing digital games.  I set a price (which can fluctuate) for a product, and if the price ever drops below that I will pick it up.  This means that I am getting more value for my dollar.  It also means that if the price drops even more the very next day, I don't get upset, because I still purchased a product at a value I consider to be fair.

 

Price discrimination already occurs on some level, in that the price of games go down to take advantage of price elasticity (which goes up as people buy the product at a particular price point).  It's already been used for packaged software around the world.

 

Now... there's very valid reasons why that vacuum cleaner might not be the same price in North America as it is in Norway or Australia. If it is manufactured and distributed closer to these countries than NA, it might cost less to ship it, or there may be local partnerships that offer discounts to retailers that they pass onto the consumer. There may be mail-in rebates only available in certain countries. The overall market demand for vacuums may be higher in one area versus another, causing natural market fluctuation.

 

 

No, I am saying that literally the list price of the exact same product in a foreign country can often be lower, even though the cost to distribute the product is higher due to shipping, because it's priced at a level that the product can still be sold at a profit.  This would work very well for software since the price of packaging and distribution is much smaller than something like an automobile (and yes, car manufacturers employ price discrimination.  So do computer manufacturers, and so forth.  Someone in the Philippines pays less for the same computer I have simply because it's priced in accordance with their economic reality).

 

 

Quote Limit....

 

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But online, in a digital transaction, all of that disappears. It's not like there is a limited supply of games, that they have to transfer them through freight or that the cost to assemble the digital download depends on region-specific resources... it's just a digital piece of property. None of the normal factors that would affect price variance come into play.

-----------------------------------

 

As a piece if digital property, it has the greatest potential for price discrimination.  It's why pirates in Asia and Russia can undercut prices on software so much.  If you start selling the software at a price point that is acceptable for the region, you start making some money instead of no money. 

 

 

 

If a developer sells a game via Steam, they don't have a separate price request if they happen to sell a copy in Papua New Guinea or San Marcos... the price is the price. Now, regional laws/regulations may cause Steam to raise the price to be compliant, but it isn't a matter where Steam takes the GDP of every country and adjusts the price based on currency strength and median income... they charge what the developer tells them to charge, plus tax and other regulatory fees that are country specific.

If a developer wants to change the price for Papua New Guinea, I'm sure they could, if they worked it out through Steam. However, I don't think Steam, as a standard, should take region into consideration unless they are legally required to do so... and at which time I think it would be wise of them to show the gamer how much their local government is adding to their charge in said transaction.

 

I'm pretty sure Steam already allows developers to set unique prices for different regions (what the prices get set at, however, is a collaborative process between the developers and Valve).  So yes, assuming Papua New Guinea was set up as a valid region, it can sell the product at a different price point.  Steam recently added support for developers to enable a restriction to prevent cross region gifting.  http://www.rockpaper...region-gifting/

 

Steam also recently added the ability for developers to set up sales whenever they want.



#98
Maiden Crowe

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Note: I never said Blizzard sold reduced price copies of WoW.  The subscription cost of WoW in China is cheaper than it is in North America (and it's actually licensed out, so the final cut Blizzard gets per user is much less than they get from North America/Europe).  To be clear: Chinese players literally pay less to play the game than North American users do.

 

Wouldn't want those subscription costs to eat too much into their profits from selling gold eh?


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#99
Talagen

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Blizzard is trying to break into a big market in Asia.  I think those lower prices are more based on competition then poverty.



#100
Allan Schumacher

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I don't think you can discount price elasticity either, however.

 

A real world application of price discrimination, as well as possible circumventing and possible pros/cons of it and how people behave around it.

 

http://www.innovatio...post-kirtsaeng/

 

 

I tend to be in favour of it, as I don't have any issues paying more compared to other places as long as I am getting value for my dollar.  The issue I find with circumventing it is that in a lot of cases (i.e. not involving Australia's oddness) it represents a systematic lack of accessibility for something on a basis that I am not entirely comfortable with (a region simply being poorer than ours).

 

 

Even then, I don't know if it's necessarily poverty, but just the reality that different regions have different demands for particular goods.  Though the global economy (as shown in the above link) can compromise this for potentially negative consequences for the foreign markets.

 

I think it'd be interesting if perfect price discrimination were possible.  I'd be very curious to analyze how buyers behave in an environment like that (and I couldn't say for certain if it'd be preferred).