1089 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

How so? Because of Fiona and her rebellion?

 

Uldred had one as well, it was crushed, he died and life resumed.

 

This is simply the same exercise on a larger scale.

 

With a bigger body count required :/

 

I have to agree. Bigger and bloodier rebellions with no actual consequence have happened in real life, so the mages revolting en masse is not a problem. The real problem, and the problem that should make everybody think that the system can't go on like this forever, is that the people in charge of preventing and crushing mage revolts are also rebelling.

 

Mind you, I'm not talking about future proposals to make "a better and super-happy place for mages", but about ways to finish the Mage-Templar War. At this moment, I can't see any solution to the war that doesn't break the current system, since the system was created to be contained in itself. If mages make trouble, Templars will take care of it. If Templars make trouble, the Seekers will take care of it. The Chantry supervises everything. Secular powers and other organizations don't have anything to do in that system.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

Having just beat that section, all Uldred was doing was trying to get the Circle to align with Loghain after Ostagar, and the Circle as a whole nearly did, when Wynne came in and told Irving the truth, so they called Uldred in and confronted him, and he ordered an attack of blood mages when things weren't going his way, summoned a bunch of demons, and got possessed, and started making more abominations. 

 

It was a rebellion, but it didn't start out as one, and wouldn't have happened if Wynne hadn't survived Ostagar and came in and told Irving (who nearly went along with Uldred) that Loghain retreated at Ostagar and abandoned the king and the wardens to the darkspawn. 

 

If Wynne hadn't survived Ostagar, then no one would have found out what a duplicitous piece of **** Logain was, meaning Irving would not have confronted Uldred and he wouldn't have summoned demons, and the crisis would never have happened. He just wanted autonomy for the circle, and hoped helping Logain against the blight would achieve just that. 

[MisterJB]

They have to come up with a better solution,

I daresay that was only possible before a rebellion.

Now, we've got Templars with no leash and who will think no mages ever can be trusted; and I won't blame them for thinking that, after this; we've got mages who feel emboldened by how they have achived "freedom" through force of arms; which, in their minds, will prove how sotting fireballs will resolve all their problems; and who have been told they are rebelling against injustices and therefore, if they harm other people, then it is a justice because they are fighting opressors; and finally, we have a common people who will want nothing to do with either side and who will, thus, be more than happy to string up some sods and start the bonfires if that is what it takes for them to feel safe.

[Loghain Mac-Tir]

I daresay that was only possible before a rebellion.

Now, we've got Templars with no leash and who will think no mages ever can be trusted; and I won't blame them for thinking that, after this; we've got mages who feel emboldened by how they have achived "freedom" through force of arms; which, in their minds, will prove how sotting fireballs will resolve all their problems; and who have been told they are rebelling against injustices and therefore, if they harm other people, then it is a justice because they are fighting opressors; and finally, we have a common people who will want nothing to do with either side and who will, thus, be more than happy to string up some sods and start the bonfires if that is what it takes for them to feel safe.

 

That is why we need a third party organization with no bias towards or against anyone involved. *coughs* Inquisition .

 

I think that a new solution would have not been considered by the Chantry if the old one still worked, I mean you have to give them credit, they made it work for almost 820 years.  

 

I really hope we get to resolve the whole mage-templar conflict in Inquisition, I mean dragging it for three games is a little too much for me. 

 

My solution would be simple,

 

Eliminate all Red Templars (no way around it), All Templars who are blind to reason (and just want to kill all mages) , and All the mages who want complete freedom (it just ain't happening). And take away the nigh infinite power that the Chantry has.  

 

A lot of people WILL die and that's a fact , but the solution should be permanent or at the very least last a very long time, like the previous one.  

[TTTX]

I have to agree. Bigger and bloodier rebellions with no actual consequence have happened in real life, so the mages revolting en masse is not a problem. The real problem, and the problem that should make everybody think that the system can't go on like this forever, is that the people in charge of preventing and crushing mage revolts are also rebelling.

 

Mind you, I'm not talking about future proposals to make "a better and super-happy place for mages", but about ways to finish the Mage-Templar War. At this moment, I can't see any solution to the war that doesn't break the current system, since the system was created to be contained in itself. If mages make trouble, Templars will take care of it. If Templars make trouble, the Seekers will take care of it. The Chantry supervises everything. Secular powers and other organizations don't have anything to do in that system.

Only problem is that we never see the seekers ever do anything against the Templars, hell even Lambert Lord Seeker acted more like a Templar then a Seeker, which could suggest the Templars could get away with a little more then normal not to mention most of the Seekers went to war with Templars as their allies even though hunting mages isn't something they do for a living which could indicate that most Seekers had very little love for mages and basically didn't punish Templars much at this point and time.

 

The Seekers do hunt very clever mages at times, but it's not their role hunt and kill every mage that is out there.

 

 

That is why we need a third party organization with no bias towards or against anyone involved. *coughs* Inquisition .

 

I think that a new solution would have not been considered by the Chantry if the old one still worked, I mean you have to give them credit, they made it work for almost 820 years.  

 

I really hope we get to resolve the whole mage-templar conflict in Inquisition, I mean dragging it for three games is a little too much for me. 

 

My solution would be simple,

 

Eliminate all Red Templars (no way around it), All Templars who are blind to reason (and just want to kill all mages) , and All the mages who want complete freedom (it just ain't happening). And take away the nigh infinite power that the Chantry has.  

 

A lot of people WILL die and that's a fact , but the solution should be permanent or at the very least last a very long time, like the previous one.  

The Circle system should still work, it just need some improvements here and there.

[Lotion Soronarr]

So the Templars broke off...so what? Ask yourself why they did it - because he Divine was p****ing in their cornflakes and actively working against them, to the point of assasinating templars. And Lambert would have none of that.

 

The relations can be mended and a new accord signed.

Lambert isn't there anymore, so unless his successor is even more extreme, the Templars could very well re-join the Chantry.

 

Even moreso if a new Divine is chosen, since templars won't trust the current one much.

[Xilizhra]

So the Templars broke off...so what? Ask yourself why they did it - because he Divine was p****ing in their cornflakes and actively working against them, to the point of assasinating templars. And Lambert would have none of that.

 

The relations can be mended and a new accord signed.

Lambert isn't there anymore, so unless his successor is even more extreme, the Templars could very well re-join the Chantry.

 

Even moreso if a new Divine is chosen, since templars won't trust the current one much.

Because the templars were already betraying her and had shown themselves to be wholly uncontrollable?

 

I do think that the current Divine might be killed before the game begins, but I'll do everything in my power to keep the Chantry/templar fence from being mended.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because the templars were already betraying her and had shown themselves to be wholly uncontrollable?

 

I do think that the current Divine might be killed before the game begins, but I'll do everything in my power to keep the Chantry/templar fence from being mended.

 

No, The Divine Cast the first stone.

 

I do believe this is going to be one aspect of DAI you will be disappointed in then.

[Xilizhra]

No, The Divine Cast the first stone.

 

I do believe this is going to be one aspect of DAI you will be disappointed in then.

There's no real need for them to keep to the status quo, you know. If the next game is in Tevinter, even huge upheavals in Andrastian society can be relegated to relatively minor background events in the Imperium.

[Master Warder Z_]

There's no real need for them to keep to the status quo, you know. If the next game is in Tevinter, even huge upheavals in Andrastian society can be relegated to relatively minor background events in the Imperium.

 

There is nothing to indicate its going to primarily take place there though, unless if a Dev has actively commented on where the sequel is going to take place.

[Xilizhra]

There is nothing to indicate its going to primarily take place there though, unless if a Dev has actively commented on where the sequel is going to take place.

It's true that it's "if," but I bring it up to show that there's no need at all for the status quo to be rebuilt. Even if it's in Rivain or Antiva instead (Antiva's full of bloody political intrigue as it is and would only become more interesting, while staying in-theme, with massive upheaval; Rivain is similarly isolated from the rest of Thedas).

[Wolfen09]

andrastian society is upheaved, next thing you know the last two old gods remaining are awakened for a double blight

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I don't think anyone taking a hardline stance on the mage/templar issue is going to be happy with the end of DA:I. It's only (meta) logical that they'll try to find a middle ground. They're probably not going to let one side "win". Even if they do have separate good endings for your position, let's be honest, they'll probably have some event between Inquisition and the next game that puts the issue back in the middle ground. 

[Xilizhra]

I don't think anyone taking a hardline stance on the mage/templar issue is going to be happy with the end of DA:I. It's only (meta) logical that they'll try to find a middle ground. They're probably not going to let one side "win". Even if they do have separate good endings for your position, let's be honest, they'll probably have some event between Inquisition and the next game that puts the issue back in the middle ground. 

I'm fine with this, because the hardline templar side is the resumption of the prior status quo. Even if it's not a complete victory, it'll be at least a partial one. I'm far less concerned with trying to build my dream of a society (which might be considered highly idiosyncratic and not necessarily achievable with the current circumstances) than ensuring that the templars don't win, and protecting as many lives as possible.

[Wolfen09]

kind of like a temporary truce to fix this stuff, then you can go back to killing each other kind of deal

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think anyone taking a hardline stance on the mage/templar issue is going to be happy with the end of DA:I. It's only (meta) logical that they'll try to find a middle ground. They're probably not going to let one side "win". Even if they do have separate good endings for your position, let's be honest, they'll probably have some event between Inquisition and the next game that puts the issue back in the middle ground. 

 

Obviously and the return of the circle is the most likely.

 

Thus the return of the status quo, It can be on either sides terms ultimately, it doesn't matter.

 

It will be the end of the rebellion, and the end of mages outside of the circle, good enough for me.

[Xilizhra]

Obviously and the return of the circle is the most likely.

 

Thus the return of the status quo, It can be on either sides terms ultimately, it doesn't matter.

 

It will be the end of the rebellion, and the end of mages outside of the circle, good enough for me.

That would be the templar plan. If it's a middle ground, that won't happen.

[Master Warder Z_]

That would be the templar plan. If it's a middle ground, that won't happen.

 

I think its fairly middle ground, after all the mages don't get imprisoned for a few generations in interment camps that make the circles look like heaven, and their war leaders likely won't be executed publicly.

 

.-. So again, I'd say its fairly middle ground.

[Xilizhra]

I think its fairly middle ground, after all the mages don't get imprisoned for a few generations in interment camps that make the circles look like heaven, and their war leaders likely won't be executed publicly.

 

.-. So again, I'd say its fairly middle ground.

So basically what you're saying is that the templars win but are lenient? That isn't middle ground either.

[Master Warder Z_]

So basically what you're saying is that the templars win but are lenient? That isn't middle ground either.

 

Well if you want to look at it from that perspective.

 

The Status quo will return, Unfortunate for those who wish dramatic social revision, but then you shouldn't wish for such a thing in a fantasy setting.

 

Its too fantastical even for that.

 

So middle ground The Templars get to go back to watching over mages, and the mages get to live!

 

Its good for every one!

 

Besides Anders...But then again he's dead so why would it matter?

[Xilizhra]

Well if you want to look at it from that perspective.

 

The Status quo will return, Unfortunate for those who wish dramatic social revision, but then you shouldn't wish for such a thing in a fantasy setting.

 

Its too fantastical even for that.

 

So middle ground The Templars get to go back to watching over mages, and the mages get to live!

 

Its good for every one!

 

Besides Anders...But then again he's dead so why would it matter?

That doesn't logically follow from... well, anything. By this logic, no major social changes should have ever happened in the world's history, but quite a few of them did. And the entire Dragon Age arc is not at all subtle about the themes of major upheaval and change. You also have no reason as to why having one side win outright is a middle ground in any way.

[Master Warder Z_]

That doesn't logically follow from... well, anything. By this logic, no major social changes should have ever happened in the world's history, but quite a few of them did. And the entire Dragon Age arc is not at all subtle about the themes of major upheaval and change. You also have no reason as to why having one side win outright is a middle ground in any way.

 

See that fails because one, I am not arguing against social upheaval although i would point out that apart from a few incidents, the entire thedosian continent has more or less been the same since the Ancient age. So yes, the DA age thus far has been an age of strife and chaos, but that doesn't follow that it cannot end on a stable note. After all, barring the Kirkwall Rebellion and The Qunari invasion, this age all it has going for it is the first blight in four centuries.

 

Eventually the embers die down, you cannot maintain a perfect storm forever, the chaos eventually ebbs and order replaces it. And two.

 

  It's not my fault that the Templar objective is so easy to obtain, while the mage one is an impossibility.

 

Besides you call it a Templar victory, I'd call it a half victory at best given i doubt it would come with out concessions giving Bioware isn't going to give us the entire war to fight out. I'm content because it shoves magic back into containment. You aren't because well...You supported the side that "lost" because well, Turns out a thousand years of tradition surprisingly is hard to get rid of.

[Xilizhra]

See that fails because one, I am not arguing against social upheaval although i would point out that apart from a few incidents, the entire thedosian continent has more or less been the same since the Ancient age. So yes, the DA age thus far has been an age of strife and chaos, but that doesn't follow that it cannot end on a stable note. After all, barring the Kirkwall Rebellion and The Qunari invasion, this age all it has going for it is the first blight in four centuries.

 

Eventually the embers die down, you cannot maintain a perfect storm forever, the chaos eventually ebbs and order replaces it. And two.

 

  It's not my fault that the Templar objective is so easy to obtain, while the mage one is an impossibility.

 

Besides you call it a Templar victory, I'd call it a half victory at best given i doubt it would come with out concessions giving Bioware isn't going to give us the entire war to fight out. I'm content because it shoves magic back into containment. You aren't because well...You supported the side that "lost" because well, Turns out a thousand years of tradition surprisingly is hard to get rid of.

There's little to say here other than that you're working off of many, many assumptions that may very well be proven completely false in DAI, whereas my position is more about the artistic side of things because trying to extrapolate the end of the game with in-world evidence, when we know barely anything about the game, is an utter fool's errand.

 

You seem to have decided the end of DAI based on the state of the world in DA2. I doubt it will be so unchanging.

[Master Warder Z_]

There's little to say here other than that you're working off of many, many assumptions that may very well be proven completely false in DAI, whereas my position is more about the artistic side of things because trying to extrapolate the end of the game with in-world evidence, when we know barely anything about the game, is an utter fool's errand.

 

You seem to have decided the end of DAI based on the state of the world in DA2. I doubt it will be so unchanging.

 

Yeah see Xill, You are confusing me for a dev again. When i say things, its speculation, opinion and anything but fact unless if confirmed.

 

One Crisis followed by another for a century with no interim? You truely think this pace of events will continue or speed up? For the past decade you have seen a blight, a qunari invasion, the sundering of the veil, an Insane dalish plot and...well i could list a few more things, but the point being eventually those plot lines will be closed and if there isn't anything to replace them then there will be an interregnum of sorts. But those always end, Perfect storms don't last and this age of strife cannot maintain it self forever, if the entire one hundred year period was to be chaotic then there would have been things prior to DAO occurring every decade or so. But apart from the calling, there is basically nothing apart from a minor plot to assassinate the Divine in 9:22 DA.

 

Well that and the Revolt over in Kirkwall which saw Perrin's line ended when it marched against the Templars, But yeah there is plenty of time for things to go wrong after DAI, But there isn't anything to indicate that if set up the right course that the continent wouldn't right it self.

 

After all, Fiona's rebellion is a big part of the reason for the world going to pot anyway,  if the that and the veil tear crisis resolved, the dalish idiocy stopped and the Civil war halted...well there are a few lingering issues elsewhere but they can hold for another day.

 

My point is this, things have lined up to make this age chaotic, but there is nothing to indicate it will linger for its entirety.

[Xilizhra]

One Crisis followed by another for a century with no interim? You truely think this pace of events will continue or speed up?

Yes, until the series' overarching background plot finally comes to a head. And Inquisition isn't the end of the big one, just another component, I'm fairly sure.

 

In any case, I figure that once this is over, we've pretty well explored Andrastian Thedas and we should go look at other places. Namely Tevinter and Qunadar.