Yeas because he would be FE if he know only theory... so i guess non-mage can be master of magic if understand theory that have sense...
Well the dwarf from Ozammar could studied at the circle, so it's not impossible for a non-mage to be a master of magic in theory.
After all mages starts with theory before practice because practice can be dangerous.
I appreciate you trying to make a joke but it's not working. As I already said, just because you fight them does not mean they're judging your combative skills.
I would like to point something else out.
In Broken Circle, there's the extracurricular activities notes we find that show us that someone was trying to put mages through, like teaching them how to fight with swords, spears and such, and not just magic, hoping to expand their skillset and give them something to put extra energy to good use for. So they're not just cooped up in a tower with barely anything to do but study.
It was the templars who shut that down saying mages didn't need to fight. It wasn't Gregoire though as the notes referenced a Knight-Commander with a different name, but it pretty much pointed out that the templars don't want mages learning how to fight at all.
Being trained to defend themselves =/= being trained for battle.
Nonsense, I will teach you Karate, throw you in the UFC and you'll be right as rain, baby. Right. As. Rain!
Exactly.
So explain why I can't shapeshift after leaving the Fade, TKS.
I can explain it quite easily.
In the Fade, everything is a matter of will. This is explained quite simply in the mage origin. Everything that is there, even what you look like, is willed into being. If you can will yourself to be a mighty golem, you will, for all purposes while in the fade, be a golem, but if you will yourself to be a mouse, you will be a mouse.
Once you're out of the Fade, those rules no longer apply because the laws of physics get in the way and only a mage can shapeshift, but as Morrigan says, you have to truly understand the form, and it seems to be limited to the organic rather than the constructed, so you could turn into a spider but not a golem.
@ Kommander, it's not that hard if you base your arguments on actual lore and facts of the game rather than the bits and pieces you agree with while ignoring the rest.
Well the dwarf from Ozammar could studied at the circle, so it's not impossible for a non-mage to be a master of magic in theory.
After all mages starts with theory before practice because practice can be dangerous.
I'm still playing catch up, but did someone say it's impossible for non-mages to study magic even though they'll never use it?
Dagna never wields magic, but she does write an essay on lyrium's effects on magic itself that gathers world-wide attention.I would also like to point out that the dwarves are the masters of enchantment. And according to the tranquil at Ostagar, any spell can be given permanency given enough knowledge of runes and enough lyrium to power the enchantment.
Dwarves will never cast spells, but they can probably nearly do many of the same things through enchantment. Or freeze an ogre without it somehow.
I'm still playing catch up, but did someone say it's impossible for non-mages to study magic even though they'll never use it?
Well it started with Orsino using fireballs a little slower then he should, that started a discussion because other mages can throw fireballs faster then he did.
Since Orsino is the leader of the circle in Kirkwall and a master of Magic he should be able throw them faster, but he doesn't, so some of us then theorized that Orsino knew more about more about the theory of magic then the practices of it well then TheKammandorShepard then said that in that post that I posted. So I pointed that non-mages can study magic, the theory of it anyway.
Dwarves will never cast spells, but they can probably nearly do many of the same things through enchantment. Or freeze an ogre without it somehow.
Sandal can anyway, but he isn't a normal dwarf and he actually says it's not enchantment, which make some theorize he is mage.
Well the dwarf from Ozammar could studied at the circle, so it's not impossible for a non-mage to be a master of magic in theory.
After all mages starts with theory before practice because practice can be dangerous.
And niether that makes you master of magic or FE...
I can explain it quite easily.
In the Fade, everything is a matter of will. This is explained quite simply in the mage origin. Everything that is there, even what you look like, is willed into being. If you can will yourself to be a mighty golem, you will, for all purposes while in the fade, be a golem, but if you will yourself to be a mouse, you will be a mouse.
Once you're out of the Fade, those rules no longer apply because the laws of physics get in the way and only a mage can shapeshift, but as Morrigan says, you have to truly understand the form, and it seems to be limited to the organic rather than the constructed, so you could turn into a spider but not a golem.
@ Kommander, it's not that hard if you base your arguments on actual lore and facts of the game rather than the bits and pieces you agree with while ignoring the rest.
If that was in case mage would simple turn themeslves into god and would kill demon with 1 finger so no if you want become titan you won't become one.Even ohter mages or other characters never could turn themselves into what they wanted in the fade they ended there in shape as they were before they were in fade... Only the warden gained that and not only because he was mage not because he was strong willed because he did something that allowed him to do that and only that time.Every read every other character mage or non-mage was same as in real world...
Arcane warriors can use their mental strength in the real world though. I mean, they use magic instead of strength and are able to span between the real world and the fade (fade shroud).
If that was in case mage would simple turn themeslves into god and would kill demon with 1 finger so no if you want become titan you won't become one.Even ohter mages or other characters never could turn themselves into what they wanted in the fade they ended there in shape as they were before they were in fade... Only the warden gained that and not only because he was mage not because he was strong willed because he did something that allowed him to do that and only that time.Every read every other character mage or non-mage was same as in real world...
You are again dismissing the actual lore. If a mage wanted to turn into a god, they would have to truly and completely understand what it is to be one, understand how one thinks, know the physical form, and in time become as it is. Without that knowledge, it won't happen.
And the lore also makes it clear that it's a practice denied by the Circles as mere myth, while Morrigan and the shapeshifiting description make it clear that obscure branches of magic which are not practiced by the Chantry-controlled circles still exist, even as the Chantry seeks to stamp out such practices. Mages can't just go and decide to become a bird and fly out a window of a Circle to escape. As far as they know, it's physically impossible, but a Chasind Shaman who may have practiced such magic may do so, if he wasn't killed by the templars under the pretense of being a maleficar, which is exactly what Wynne calls Morrigan despite the fact that Morrigan is not a blood mage. She just practices a form of magic that the Circles haven't sanctioned.
It takes a great deal of knowledge and study to be a shapeshifter according to the lore, and you can't just 'magic yourself' into another form just because. You have to truly understand the form, study the creature, and even understand how it thinks to a certain degree.
Now, if my Warden decided to dissect the corpse of the archdemon, run a series of exhaustive tests to truly determine resistances to various forms of magic, study it indefinitely, you could in theory become an archdemon, but most mages would never get that opportunity.
Arcane warriors can use their mental strength in the real world though. I mean, they use magic instead of strength and are able to span between the real world and the fade (fade shroud).
True, but that's a branch of magic that is long extinct, and only the Warden, according to the devs, know how master it because (s)he learned it from the phylactery in the ruins.
Although, it's not that different from a Spirit Warrior, a non-mage warrior who is empowered by a spirit in the Fade, often mistaken for a mage, but instead of relying on a spirit you are relying on your own innate magic and connection to the Fade.
You are again dismissing the actual lore. If a mage wanted to turn into a god, they would have to truly and completely understand what it is to be one, understand how one thinks, know the physical form, and in time become as it is. Without that knowledge, it won't happen.
And the lore also makes it clear that it's a practice denied by the Circles as mere myth, while Morrigan and the shapeshifiting description make it clear that obscure branches of magic which are not practiced by the Chantry-controlled circles still exist, even as the Chantry seeks to stamp out such practices. Mages can't just go and decide to become a bird and fly out a window of a Circle to escape. As far as they know, it's physically impossible, but a Chasind Shaman who may have practiced such magic may do so, if he wasn't killed by the templars under the pretense of being a maleficar, which is exactly what Wynne calls Morrigan despite the fact that Morrigan is not a blood mage. She just practices a form of magic that the Circles haven't sanctioned.
It takes a great deal of knowledge and study to be a shapeshifter according to the lore, and you can't just 'magic yourself' into another form just because. You have to truly understand the form, study the creature, and even understand how it thinks to a certain degree.
Now, if my Warden decided to dissect the corpse of the archdemon, run a series of exhaustive tests to truly determine resistances to various forms of magic, study it indefinitely, you could in theory become an archdemon, but most mages would never get that opportunity.
Shapeshift and i want become golem in fade are 2 different things as that require you being mage and you can do that in real world as well not because imagination is power... Which pretty much supports my point that no circle mage during harrowing is same as s/he was in real world as well his combat skills...
Thats why neither any character could do that in fade in universe...
So my point stands...
Shapeshift and i want become golem in fade are 2 different things as that require you being mage and you can do that in real world as well not because imagination is power... Which pretty much supports my point that no circle mage during harrowing is same as s/he was in real world as well his combat skills...
Thats why neither any character could do that in fade in universe...
So my point stands...
err....no offense, but I can't make out your point. It's a little jumbled.
err....no offense, but I can't make out your point. It's a little jumbled.
My point was that mage during harrowing is same as is in real world and he have to use his combat abilities to fight demon and skills to change shape are for shapeshifters (that can both change shape real world) but mage or non-mage can't do that in the fade at least not until right conditions are fulfilled like the warden but he could do that only one.
My point was that mage during harrowing is same as is in real world and he have to use his combat abilities to fight demon and skills to change shape are for shapeshifters (that can both change shape real world) but mage or non-mage can't do that in the fade at least not until right conditions are fulfilled like the warden but he could do that only one.
Umm..that wasn't what my Warden went through. Yes, he had a basic understanding of combat for wisps and enough competency to fight the rage demon, but the true test of the Harrowing had nothing to do with combat, but seeing through Mouse's lies and rejecting him, the Pride Demon who was trying to trick you, into accepting him and letting him in.
It was less a test of combat and more a test of understanding you can't trust everything in the Fade, and rejecting the offer of a demon.
EDIT: Also, it should be noted that templars force tranquility on mages whom they feel is weak, or are dangerous, and those mages don't go through a Harrowing at all. You have to show a degree of competency anyway before you undergo it.
It's not just fulfilling the right conditions, you have to be mentally prepared to change your shape in the fade. As all sources say, you'd have to forget that you're you, or you'd have to have the knowledge and understanding given to you by another. The Wardens don't just decide to do it in the Fade, they are given that knowledge by dreamers trapped in nightmares, (the kind who are asleep and not somniari.)
Most simply wouldn't have the knowledge or the will to do so.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 11 avril 2014 - 05:30 .
Chantry Apologist propaganda, that’s kinda cute, I dig it.
The Chantry sister was quick to tell Uldred that she won’t trust their lives to him solely because he’s a mage. The other one was a self-righteous condescending jackass. Petrice was a fool. The Qunari attacked when they had had enough of her skullduggery. Not before, not during, but after all of her schemes had laid the groundwork for aggression against the Qunari. She and Isabela are almost entirely at fault for that fiasco. The Priest at Redcliffe says that to the WARDEN because it’s the norm to do the opposite, if it isn’t, why would she bother? That’s also supported by Wynne and Cole in town from Asunder. Which is supported by Wynne’s stories, herself. Which is also supported by Jowan's story about his own benevolent parents.
I can confidently label it as slavery too, btw.
Full Definition of SLAVERY according to Merriam Webster
1. Drudgery, toil.
2. Submission to a dominating influence.
3. The state of a person who is a chattel to another.
Chattel as defined by Webster: something (such as a slave, piece of furniture, tool, etc.) that a person owns other than land or buildings.
**Mages are traditionally owned by the Divine aka the Chantry**
The mages fit at least two of the definitions of slavery, take it up with Webster if you don’t like it.
I swear to your maker if you use the word ‘safety’ and ‘chantry’ close together again… Or were you referring to Fereldan and Kirkwall? Where the mages were ‘safe’? Like when the Uldred became an abomination, was he ‘safe from his own power’, were other mages safe from his power? I'm sure the mages who committed suicide felt pretty safe too. Also, Circle Mages DO NOT have any reliable recourse should they experience abuses, they are completely and utterly at the mercy of the Knight Commander. You can scream First Enchanter from the rooftops all ya like. But ask Orsino about the illegal Tranquil popping up in the gallows. Oh, I’m sorry, he’s not allowed beyond the courtyard.
An inaccurate hyperbole would look something like this “The mages are given perhaps the greatest of gifts by the Chantry”.
They’ve grossly overpaid the Elves for any transgressions that they may be at fault for. Then the Chantry calls it a mercy and sends Templars out to go after their Dalish keepers should they stay ‘too long’. All the while looking the other way in the event of an Alienage purge, or if they’re being sold into slavery. That is if the
elves aren’t currently toiling away in an Andrastian’s kitchen. Worried about being raped, beaten, and never seeing justice.
The Chantry and its Andrastians are nothing more than a watered down Tevinter. They are which they hate most and now they can’t even maintain that.
Even Rome fell; Do not be surprised if it is an option.
Because magic isn't infallible, there was no notion of if the spell in question would even serve, given that there wasn't any basis for his proposal to begin with. The Chantry representative may have cut him off, but it was hardly the smack across the face you portray. The Qunari are not allies of Thedas, they are enemies, neutral at the moment or no that will never change until either they all die or succeed. Petrice merely recognized that fact, There is nothing to be gained by pretending friendship with the Oxmen, not a thing. The Priest rallying the townspeople to support the Chantry Law of rooting out illegal magic outside of the circle? Such a travesty! It doesn't matter that illegal mages have no ward against possession, no shield against the threat their magic brings, nor the danger they can cause! Oh no, Because The Chantry Encourages mages to be run down in the streets, not taken to the circle for training and to be kept safe.
You can twist and squirm but it doesn't change what Thedas is.
You misconstruing the dictionary doesn't make what you write to be anymore accurate, just so you know. The Mages are not Slaves, they are not forced to work, To Toil or even pressed into service to fight, The Common People of Thedas, the Serfs, the Servants, and the Press Gangs that herd them into the armies of the Lords, Are more akin to slaves then any mage.
Uldred as a Libertatiarian Mercenary, a failure of the circle most certainly, but there will always be Uldred's, Non Mage Uldreds even. You can more remove Greed and stupidity from Mankind then you can wish to fade from Thedas. When Those numbers become more then a mere reference by an insane reference by an abomination perhaps we will look into Mage suicide numbers. Until then though? Its only mention comes from a fairly biased and untrustworthy source.
It is the law of the Land, the Dalish flaunt it, They linger upon Possessed National or Personal Lands, and the Chantry reacts accordingly. If they wish to avoid that, either submit their Mages to the circle or have them linger in the remote corners of the world. Either or. And the National Monarchies have no issue with that either, You seem to be holding up the Chantry to be the Antagonist when it merely stays out of Political Affairs for the most part, If you wish to hang "Elven mistreatment" on any one, perhaps it would be better be served by actually pointing the finger at those who write and enforce those laws.
Really? When the Chantry allows non mages to be classified as little more then second class citizens or property, perhaps that label will hold water. The Mages are kept away from society, and that is the end of it. They aren't used for blood rituals, they aren't used for foot soldiers, they aren't labeled property. Watered down Tevinter? A more accurate label would be "Nothing at all like the Imperium".
The Chantry isn't Rome, Don't be surprised if it isn't an option.
And niether that makes you master of magic or FE...
Actually it does, since mages study a lot, theological knowledge is just as important as the practice.
Umm..that wasn't what my Warden went through. Yes, he had a basic understanding of combat for wisps and enough competency to fight the rage demon, but the true test of the Harrowing had nothing to do with combat, but seeing through Mouse's lies and rejecting him, the Pride Demon who was trying to trick you, into accepting him and letting him in.
It was less a test of combat and more a test of understanding you can't trust everything in the Fade, and rejecting the offer of a demon.
EDIT: Also, it should be noted that templars force tranquility on mages whom they feel is weak, or are dangerous, and those mages don't go through a Harrowing at all. You have to show a degree of competency anyway before you undergo it.
It's not just fulfilling the right conditions, you have to be mentally prepared to change your shape in the fade. As all sources say, you'd have to forget that you're you, or you'd have to have the knowledge and understanding given to you by another. The Wardens don't just decide to do it in the Fade, they are given that knowledge by dreamers trapped in nightmares, (the kind who are asleep and not somniari.)
Most simply wouldn't have the knowledge or the will to do so.
A bit OT but it just came to my mind.
Pride let you be. The rage demon was your test. Had the pride demon wanted to possess you, it could have. You can play dumb with it, it still helps you and doesn't try to possess you. His attempt at "tricking" you after killing the rage demon was too clumsy and easy to see through for such a powerful creature. Pride demons are supposed to be the strongest and most cunning demons, after all. The Harrowing left me with a bad taste in my mouth for this reason.
A bit OT but it just came to my mind.
Pride let you be. The rage demon was your test. Had the pride demon wanted to possess you, it could have. You can play dumb with it, it still helps you and doesn't try to possess you. His attempt at "tricking" you after killing the rage demon was too clumsy and easy to see through for such a powerful creature. Pride demons are supposed to be the strongest and most cunning demons, after all. The Harrowing left me with a bad taste in my mouth for this reason.
Oh? He spends the whole time giving you advice, setting up a persona, and had a sloth demon and a rage demon give validation that he was who he was saying he was, from Rage saying "after all those wonderful meals we have shared" to sloth's "but the small one gave up his form years ago."
Since he's a Pride Demon, those two had to work for him in some way, and what they both say make sense if he actually was a mage who failed his Harrowing, but makes no sense if they know the truth, which they have to, unless it's in respect of a hierarchy among them, or helping set up a trap.
Besides, if the Rage demon really was my test, why didn't I leave the moment he was dead? I always interpreted it as the Pride Demon trying to trick you, play on your pride and skill as a mage for defeating a rage demon as a way to get into the real world, but in his eagerness overplays his hand after you defeat the Rage demon.
Umm..that wasn't what my Warden went through. Yes, he had a basic understanding of combat for wisps and enough competency to fight the rage demon, but the true test of the Harrowing had nothing to do with combat, but seeing through Mouse's lies and rejecting him, the Pride Demon who was trying to trick you, into accepting him and letting him in.
It was less a test of combat and more a test of understanding you can't trust everything in the Fade, and rejecting the offer of a demon.
EDIT: Also, it should be noted that templars force tranquility on mages whom they feel is weak, or are dangerous, and those mages don't go through a Harrowing at all. You have to show a degree of competency anyway before you undergo it.
It's not just fulfilling the right conditions, you have to be mentally prepared to change your shape in the fade. As all sources say, you'd have to forget that you're you, or you'd have to have the knowledge and understanding given to you by another. The Wardens don't just decide to do it in the Fade, they are given that knowledge by dreamers trapped in nightmares, (the kind who are asleep and not somniari.)
Most simply wouldn't have the knowledge or the will to do so.
And again that wasn't point what you were doing durring harrowing? you were fighting different beings in the fade so point was harrowing is fight test mostly last part is reject demon...
And yep they are trained to fight...
Oh? He spends the whole time giving you advice, setting up a persona, and had a sloth demon and a rage demon give validation that he was who he was saying he was, from Rage saying "after all those wonderful meals we have shared" to sloth's "but the small one gave up his form years ago."
Since he's a Pride Demon, those two had to work for him in some way, and what they both say make sense if he actually was a mage who failed his Harrowing, but makes no sense if they know the truth, which they have to, unless it's in respect of a hierarchy among them, or helping set up a trap.
Besides, if the Rage demon really was my test, why didn't I leave the moment he was dead? I always interpreted it as the Pride Demon trying to trick you, play on your pride and skill as a mage for defeating a rage demon as a way to get into the real world, but in his eagerness overplays his hand after you defeat the Rage demon.
It seemed too obvious though. "There might be a way for me, if you let me in" if I wasn't already suspicious, that would have made me certain of its true nature. It kept on flattering the apprentice in blatant ways. I had the impressions it was merely playing with the PC.
And again that wasn't point what you were doing durring harrowing? you were fighting different beings in the fade so point was harrowing is fight test mostly last part is reject demon...
And yep they are trained to fight...
Despite the Mage PC saying the exact opposite to the spirit of Valor if questioned?
._.
When talking about the Harrowing the PC can elect to say "We are mages, we are not trained to fight." When the spirit suggest they test themselves in combat against each other.
Oh? He spends the whole time giving you advice, setting up a persona, and had a sloth demon and a rage demon give validation that he was who he was saying he was, from Rage saying "after all those wonderful meals we have shared" to sloth's "but the small one gave up his form years ago."
Since he's a Pride Demon, those two had to work for him in some way, and what they both say make sense if he actually was a mage who failed his Harrowing, but makes no sense if they know the truth, which they have to, unless it's in respect of a hierarchy among them, or helping set up a trap.
Besides, if the Rage demon really was my test, why didn't I leave the moment he was dead? I always interpreted it as the Pride Demon trying to trick you, play on your pride and skill as a mage for defeating a rage demon as a way to get into the real world, but in his eagerness overplays his hand after you defeat the Rage demon.
If I remember correctly the pride demon says something along the line as the true test is arrogance and pride because that's what will lead you down the path of being possessed, much like what happen with Uldred.
Despite the Mage PC saying the exact opposite to the spirit of Valor if questioned?
._.
When talking about the Harrowing the PC can elect to say "We are mages, we are not trained to fight." When the spirit suggest they test themselves in combat against each other.
And despite that after Harrowing we can see mages trained to fight?
Pretty much you can tell hermit that you are from denerim or some other place despite being human mage or human noble
And despite that after Harrowing we can see mages trained to fight?
Pretty much you can tell hermit that you are from denerim or some other place despite being human mage or human noble
The heck do you mean?
Seriously, TKS i usually have some difficulty understanding what you write but here...I don't understand it at all.
The heck do you mean?
Seriously, TKS i usually have some difficulty understanding what you write but here...I don't understand it at all.
That mean that after harrowing we can see mages that practice fight and magic like resisting hostile spells , controling fire or (jowan dialogues) spells accuracy spells.
Retour en haut