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[Beerfish]

Lambert and the red haired female mage were the only honorable people in that whole book.  Were they both extreme in their views?  Yes for sure but they were essentially the only ones that stuck to their beliefs, acted on them in a logical manner and were not either stupid, selfish or wishy washy.  Some excellent writing by Dave Gaider because the characters that most people love in that book had some horrible flaws and were far worse than the punching bags of Lambert and the red haired mage.  He pulled off the perfect hoodwinking of his audience in my opinion.

[wcholcombe]

Assuming that actually occurs, wasn't that only mentioned in a rather dated by this point poll?

No, it was mentioned in one of the previews from PAX last year.  That was actually the first place I saw it.

[wcholcombe]

Lambert and the red haired female mage were the only honorable people in that whole book.  Were they both extreme in their views?  Yes for sure but they were essentially the only ones that stuck to their beliefs, acted on them in a logical manner and were not either stupid, selfish or wishy washy.  Some excellent writing by Dave Gaider because the characters that most people love in that book had some horrible flaws and were far worse than the punching bags of Lambert and the red haired mage.  He pulled off the perfect hoodwinking of his audience in my opinion.

Really?  Lambert and Adrian are honorable?  Really?  One frames her best friend and former lover for murder and the other orders his second in command to murder 3 mages on orders from the divine his superior.  So while I won't claim there is a lot of "Honor" to go around in Asunder, I definitely won't claim Adrian and Lambert have a monopoly on it.

[Mistic]

Really?  I wouldn't consider making the effort to modernize and reform a failing system as the goal of a soft individual.  The issues that were causing problems in the circle can actually be laid at lamberts feet.  Mr. Lord Commander of the Seekers didn't do much of a job of investigating or coming down on templars that were abusing mages in Kirkwall now was he.  Since that is one of the primary jobs of Seekers, its a pretty massive failing on his part.  The failure of the Seekers to maintain themselves as seperate from the templars and their inability to police the order lead to the Divine having to take a hand and institute reforms.

 

I agree. One of the main problems of the current Circle System is that despite having tools in theory to cover every base, in practice Templars end up in a priviledged position (minus the lyrium addiction, that's true). Seekers always appear too late, if they appear at all, and the main actions we have seen them doing have been mainly against mages (the fight against the Blood Mage cult in Dawn of the Seeker and the annulment of the Rivain Circle in WoT).

 

For example, let's say a Circle misbehave. The Templars can ask for the Right of Annulment, which is carried out once they have the permission from the Grand Cleric or, if she's dead, the Knight-Commander themselves can call for it. However, what happens if a Templar garrison misbehaves? Can the First Enchanter ask the Grand Cleric for an equivalent right?

 

Lambert and the red haired female mage were the only honorable people in that whole book.  Were they both extreme in their views?  Yes for sure but they were essentially the only ones that stuck to their beliefs, acted on them in a logical manner and were not either stupid, selfish or wishy washy.  Some excellent writing by Dave Gaider because the characters that most people love in that book had some horrible flaws and were far worse than the punching bags of Lambert and the red haired mage.  He pulled off the perfect hoodwinking of his audience in my opinion.

 

I'm not sure "honorable" is the word you're looking for those two. Lambert plotted to derail the Divine's investigation behind her back and Adrian betrayed her oldest friend for the cause.

[Master Warder Z_]

No, it was mentioned in one of the previews from PAX last year.  That was actually the first place I saw it.

 

Hmm, We will see if it translates into the actual game.

 

Overall, i also think we will learn if the Seekers were truly asleep at the wheel or no, also in DAI.

 

They could have been displaced for gameplay reasons after all, Wouldn't Kirkwall be less fun with sanity in it?!

[AresKeith]

Lambert and the red haired female mage were the only honorable people in that whole book.  Were they both extreme in their views?  Yes for sure but they were essentially the only ones that stuck to their beliefs, acted on them in a logical manner and were not either stupid, selfish or wishy washy.

 

[TTTX]

Really?  I wouldn't consider making the effort to modernize and reform a failing system as the goal of a soft individual.  The issues that were causing problems in the circle can actually be laid at lamberts feet.  Mr. Lord Commander of the Seekers didn't do much of a job of investigating or coming down on templars that were abusing mages in Kirkwall now was he.  Since that is one of the primary jobs of Seekers, its a pretty massive failing on his part.  The failure of the Seekers to maintain themselves as seperate from the templars and their inability to police the order lead to the Divine having to take a hand and institute reforms.

indeed, the system was in need of improvements.

[Master Warder Z_]

Really?  Lambert and Adrian are honorable?  Really?  One frames her best friend and former lover for murder and the other orders his second in command to murder 3 mages on orders from the divine his superior.

He suggested that if things were uncovered, if certain mages were to disappear into the Wastes, things likely would go smoother.

 

He wasn't wrong, but he also didn't directly order her to "murder" any one.

[TheKomandorShepard]

He didn't overthrow squat. We actually have no clue how many of the templars left with Lambert nore that she is unpopular with the chantry.  What we do know is that the grand clerics don't like that they can't manipulate her, that she is still the Divine, so he in no way overthrew her, also it appears she is fixing the mess herself by the fact that DAI opens with the peace conference she has called and everyone has apparently answered.  The mess that she will need help with will be the fade tears because she is too busy making the templars and mages play nice.  Her reforms and efforts were fixing the mess the Seekers caused by not properly policing the templars as is their primary duty. 

 

Divine Justinia V still reigns, may Andraste watch over her.

 

It is stated in her codex that most don't like her views i can see that besides it is logical that lambert took most of her forces otherwise she wouldn't have to beg others powerful being for help and fix thing for help.And pretty much we have little informations about conference so you are making that up . Not rly as i said she was one who caused world war when lambert maintained peace as well she provoked both sides .So divine regins emptry throne room with few units good luck for her as she is desperate beg others as i said fix mess and pretty much she isn't loved in orlais even before what she did and now it have to be even worse...

[EmissaryofLies]

Really?  I wouldn't consider making the effort to modernize and reform a failing system as the goal of a soft individual.  The issues that were causing problems in the circle can actually be laid at lamberts feet.  Mr. Lord Commander of the Seekers didn't do much of a job of investigating or coming down on templars that were abusing mages in Kirkwall now was he.  Since that is one of the primary jobs of Seekers, its a pretty massive failing on his part.  The failure of the Seekers to maintain themselves as seperate from the templars and their inability to police the order lead to the Divine having to take a hand and institute reforms.

 

A system that stood strong for a thousand years? I hardly think Justinia is qualified to be so radical. Especially considering the way her machinations failed her utterly. 

 

I recall Leliana, one of the Divine's concubines friends making an appearance in Kirkwall? Why did Justinia not do anything? And wasn't she at first thinking about wiping Kirkwall out, anyway?

 

As bad as Kirkwall was on the mages, the templars had some semblance of control over them. At least until Act III. He's at fault for the Alrik and Karras and other cronies, sure. 

 

But how did the mages repay Justinia's kindness? Oh yeah. They seceded from the Chantry. 

[Beerfish]

Really?  Lambert and Adrian are honorable?  Really?  One frames her best friend and former lover for murder and the other orders his second in command to murder 3 mages on orders from the divine his superior.  So while I won't claim there is a lot of "Honor" to go around in Asunder, I definitely won't claim Adrian and Lambert have a monopoly on it.

Honor as far as having a goal and some responsibility to that goal and acting on it.  Unlike rhys, the epitomy of selfishness and stupidity.  Cole the demon serial killer and Evangeline a traitor of the very worst kind.  (Wynne and Leliana get tossed in there as well for their actions as well but not the the extent of Rhys, cole and Evangeline.)

[Beerfish]

Both of them are utter beacons of reason compared to  Rhys, Cole, Evangeline and poor Wynne (Wynne has a bit of an excuse as her dimwit son was most responsible for her flip flopping.)

[wcholcombe]

It is stated in her codex that most don't like her views i can see that besides it is logical that lambert took most of her forces otherwise she wouldn't have to beg others powerful being for help and fix thing for help.And pretty much we have little informations about conference so you are making that up . Not rly as i said she was one who caused world war when lambert maintained peace as well she provoked both sides .So divine regins emptry throne room with few units good luck for her as she is desperate beg others as i said fix mess and pretty much she isn't loved in orlais even before what she did and now it have to be even worse...

Again you don't have a clue how many templars left and how many stayed.  It could be half it could be a 1/3, I am guessing that at least 1/3 of the templars and seekers stayed loyal to the Chantry as the templars are picked from the most religious people.    We do know the peace conference was called by the Divine and we do know that chantry leadership is decimated at it.  She didn't provoke either side, she fulfilled her role as divine and did what was in the best interest of the Chantry, the fact that Lambert, Adrian, and Fiona decided to interfere is beside the point.  And nice head canon with not being loved in Orlais, we actually have no idea what the feelings are for the Divine outside of the Grand Clerics who voted unanimously to approve her.

[wcholcombe]

Honor as far as having a goal and some responsibility to that goal and acting on it.  Unlike rhys, the epitomy of selfishness and stupidity.  Cole the demon serial killer and Evangeline a traitor of the very worst kind.  (Wynne and Leliana get tossed in there as well for their actions as well but not the the extent of Rhys, cole and Evangeline.)

You and I have a completely different definition of Honor my friend. Both Lambert and Adrian proceeded to their own selfish goals blind to anything that got in the way.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again you don't have a clue how many templars left and how many stayed.  It could be half it could be a 1/3, I am guessing that at least 1/3 of the templars and seekers stayed loyal to the Chantry as the templars are picked from the most religious people.    We do know the peace conference was called by the Divine and we do know that chantry leadership is decimated at it.  She didn't provoke either side, she fulfilled her role as divine and did what was in the best interest of the Chantry, the fact that Lambert, Adrian, and Fiona decided to interfere is beside the point.  And nice head canon with not being loved in Orlais, we actually have no idea what the feelings are for the Divine outside of the Grand Clerics who voted unanimously to approve her.

 

If only 1/3 lest as i said she was in control and could end that instantly she couldn't as it is stated by lambert took seekers and templars so it is logical that he took most of them. Not rly we don't know what is that even conference considering that it isn't even confirmed and i doubt they will kill outright leaders of the group so at best she got few peacful individual to discuss... And no she pissed of mages in da 2 ignoring everything what was going there and threating them with war then she provoked templars allowing mages do what they want to do in result she pissed both group off so no in the end both mages and templars/seekers left ther... and no new book at least fragments of it that shows that orlais don't rly like situation around chantry mages and templars and wouldn't like take divine take care off situation with except celene...

[The Baconer]

He suggested that if things were uncovered, if certain mages were to disappear into the Wastes, things likely would go smoother.

 

He wasn't wrong, but he also didn't directly order her to "murder" any one.

 

Man, he dumb. A Lord Seeker really shouldn't be dumb.

[Master Warder Z_]

Man, he dumb. A Lord Seeker really shouldn't be dumb.

 

If Rhys, Wynne and Adrian disappeared in the wastes, you think there would have been a Conclave?

 

You think there would be problems now?

[EmissaryofLies]

Don't forget Fiona, that filthy knife ear. Throw 'em all in the Alienage. 

[The Baconer]

If Rhys, Wynne and Adrian disappeared in the wastes, you think there would have been a Conclave?

 

You think there would be problems now?

 

Arranging for them to disappear wasn't the dumb part. It's how he goes about getting it done.

 

It's just cute watching him try to play the mastermind. "Intrigue? I'm down with that. I'm all about the Game, son."

[Master Warder Z_]

Arranging for them to disappear wasn't the dumb part. It's how he goes about getting it done.

 

Expecting a subordinate to do her duty?
 

I agree, i would have sent someone far firmer in conviction personally.

[Master Warder Z_]

Don't forget Fiona, that filthy knife ear. Throw 'em all in the Alienage. 

 

I'd give her back to her master personally

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'd give her back to her master personally

 

[The Baconer]

Expecting a subordinate to do her duty?

 

No, expecting her to be able (and willing) to murder 3 mages by herself... Somehow.

 

 

I agree, i would have sent someone far firmer in conviction personally.

 

He did, later. But not even that guy could get the job done. I guess the life of one Templar was worth the war?

[Banxey]

If Rhys, Wynne and Adrian disappeared in the wastes, you think there would have been a Conclave?

 

You think there would be problems now?

 

Do you really think having a man who has an obvious disdain for mages in charge of the order who is supposed to make sure they're treated fairly was ever going to result in peace? There were already tensions between mages and Templars. Enough that an attempt was made on the Divine's life. Hiding Pharamond's findings wouldn't have solved anything. 

 

Let me also point out that at least Evangeline considered that the Templars were involved in the attack on the Divine. If I were Evangeline and suspected that, and also knew the Lord Seeker wasn't looking into that possibility, I wouldn't follow his orders either. That goes doubly so if that leader then denounces the authority of the leader my order pledges service to.

 

Evangeline is the only Templar in the book who has any backbone. 

[Master Warder Z_]

No, expecting her to be able (and willing) to murder 3 mages by herself... Somehow.

 

It wouldn't have been with out cause, their deaths would have maintained, peace, stability and safety for both parties involved. Is it better to spare three and kill a thousand? its the same argument i made in Mass Effect, if you had to abandon a planet that was being evacuated so you could focus you're military efforts on an exposed weak position of the Reapers, would you basically kill tens of thousands if not more people to secure victory in the overall objective?

 

Also he sent a group of Templars to meet her at the fortress, so she would have had enough help to kill three mages.

 

 

He did, later. But not even that guy could get the job done. I guess the life of one Templar was worth the war?

 

Don't recall this bit, who did he send?