1089 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

It wouldn't have been with out cause, their deaths would have maintained, peace, stability and safety for both parties involved. Is it better to spare three and kill a thousand? its the same argument i made in Mass Effect, if you had to abandon a planet that was being evacuated so you could focus you're military efforts on an exposed weak position of the Reapers, would you basically kill tens of thousands if not more people to secure victory in the overall objective?

 

I'm not reading this. My only argument is that Lambert was dumb.

 

 

Don't recall this bit, who did he send?

The guy leading the company of Templars that met them at the fortress. You know, who bent over for Evangeline instead of killing all four of them. Is it better to spare four and kill a thousand?

[Master Warder Z_]

That goes doubly so if that leader then denounces the authority of the leader my order pledges service to.

 

The Templar Order was originally mandated to safeguard mankind from Magic, It swore its Oath to do that. It supersedes it's Allegiance to an Organization that has been weakening its position to be able to fulfill that function.

 

 

Do you really think having a man who has an obvious disdain for mages in charge of the order who is supposed to make sure they're treated fairly was ever going to result in peace? There were already tensions between mages and Templars. Enough that an attempt was made on the Divine's life. Hiding Pharamond's findings wouldn't have solved anything. 

 

Despite his obvious "bias" he did an effective job investigating the various circles issues, including the apparent assassination attempt upon the Divine, to the issue of tension. There wouldn't have been need for the Conclave, Fiona could have stated where she was griping about Injustice with out an Audience she would go back to what she was pre conclave, an foul mouthed extremist that most people didn't pay heed to. The tension would have eventually abated, common ground restored once again, Kirkwall rebuilt and forgotten.

 

 

Evangeline is the only Templar in the book who has any backbone. 

 

No she is the only in the book who let her...urges dictate her action

[Master Warder Z_]

The guy leading the company of Templars that met them at the fortress. You know, who bent over for Evangeline instead of killing all four of them. Is it better to spare four and kill a thousand?

 

._. The guy in question was there to offer assistance in killing the mages, not the Knight Captain, furthermore the man in question had no knowledge of what transpired in the Fort until after their return, would you kill a brother in arms merely upon the speculation they may not be doing their duty?

[Banxey]

 

 

The Templar Order was originally mandated to safeguard mankind from Magic, It swore its Oath to do that. It supersedes it's Allegiance to an Organization that has been weakening its position to be able to fulfill that function.

 

 

It also exists to safeguard mages from harm. Evangeline had good reason to question Lambert's intentions. It's not like she had a Seeker she could report him to if she felt he was out of line.

 

 

Despite his obvious "bias" he did an effective job investigating the various circles issues, including the apparent assassination attempt upon the Divine, to the issue of tension. There wouldn't have been need for the Conclave, Fiona could have stated where she was griping about Injustice with out an Audience she would go back to what she was pre conclave, an foul mouthed extremist that most people didn't pay heed to. The tension would have eventually abated, common ground restored once again, Kirkwall rebuilt and forgotten.

 

 

I'm curious to know where in the book it says Lambert investigated the Templar's role in the mage escaping the White Spire? And I'm sorry, I don't agree that standing on a person's neck while telling them their feelings are pointless and unreasonable will lead to an abatement of tensions. 

 

 

No she is the only in the book who let her...urges dictate her action 

 

I disagree. She didn't fold to Lambert's attempts to get her to lie and kill for his personal vendetta. She had good reasons not to. And you accuse her of doing what she did out of her feelings for Rhys, but you are fine with Lambert letting his rage dictate his decisions? 

[Grieving Natashina]

Hey, what's going on in here.....

 

 

 

 I smell way too much sarcasm in here that most folks are missing.  Not to mention that this will probably be another 100+page thread where we are talking in an eternal loop again.  

 

My quick thoughts on Asunder, then you guys have "fun" with this:  Lambert was a paranoid power hungry tyrant, that was even worse than Meredith.  Meredith had to have a cursed idol strapped to her back for years before she went extremist.  Lambert struck me as inherently sadistic, taking great pleasure in harassing mages and making them cower.  When Cole creept up on him in the end, I cheered out loud.

 

Anyone that says "Eve isn't alive due to the Spirit animating her" should have said the same about Wynne.  Eve walks, talks, breathes, has her own mind and her own feelings.  I'd call that a living person to me and more of an individual than Anders was (even from the beginning of the merger, Anders' mind was no longer quite his own.)  

 

Fiona did take advantage of the situation and yes, could have been the one to push things up to 11.  Her actions left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth, since it was obvious she planned that from the start.   However, I just read Asunder not 3 days ago.  Lambert was already breaking down the door.   Somehow, I don't think he would have been inclined to be nice.  Lambert was determined to be have "order" no matter the cost.  The meeting could have been just for the Tranquility option (as it was supposed to be) and that wouldn't have stopped that freak.  Either way, the mages must be stopped!

 

The Divine never looked for a full-blown cure for Tranquility.  She wanted to have a way to sever their magic without killing their emotions.  As was proven, for now, the answer is No.

 

I had some minor sympathy for Adrian.  I can't imagine her levels of frustration, and was even siding with her for the most part.  Until the end, where it turned out she framed Rhys and damn near got the entire White Spire Circle (as well as mages from other groups)  killed off entirely.  At least Anders had the decency to try to keep Hawke out of it.

 

I loved Evangeline.  Even named my D3 Crusader after her.  She's what I hoped for with the Templar order, and what they need to be.  I don't care what the more "Lawful" templar sympathizers have to say on the matter either.   Duty got lost in sight of the need for Order and that's not how it should be.  She mirrors so many of my thoughts about the Templars I felt a kinship with her.  If I could have a viewpoint like hers in my party, I'd be a happy camper.

 

Rhys was great and I hope to see him again.  I loved his sense of self-depreciating humor in the wake of things like Lambert's interrogation, and he was a fine mage.  He's got a down-to-earth nature that I enjoyed and he's got a huge heart.

 

I'll save my thoughts about Cole for his own thread.

 

On that note, catch you guys around the forums, and be kind to each other.  Remember: If you need to address something, attack their words, attack their stance.  Don't attack them!

[EmissaryofLies]

Lambert made a few mistakes here and there, but the mages and that damned Divine really drove the conflict forward. 

 

If I can see Adrian skewered alive and Fiona blown up, I'll be a happy inquisitor. 

 

I really can't believe that others are willing to risk Thedas falling into complete ruin with free mages running around. 

 

Lock them up, maintain order and only bring them out when absolutely necessary. If we have to look to the Qun for inspiration, so be it. 

[The Baconer]

._. The guy in question was there to offer assistance in killing the mages, not the Knight Captain, furthermore the man in question had no knowledge of what transpired in the Fort until after their return, would you kill a brother in arms merely upon the speculation they may not be doing their duty?

 

What speculation? The mages were allowed to enter, and then they were allowed to leave, with a visually disturbed elf in tow. Evangeline prevented the Templars at the fortress from performing their "duties", so wouldn't that make her death, you know, means to an end? The lives of four over thousands?

[Master Warder Z_]

What speculation? The mages were allowed to enter, and then they were allowed to leave, with a visually disturbed elf in tow. Evangeline prevented the Templars at the fortress from performing their "duties", so wouldn't that make her death, you know, means to an end? The lives of four over thousands?

Again there were only there to kill them if something unforunate was discovered, it was as if Lambert sent them out there only to be killed, it was a last resort scenario.Speculation that the research bore fruit that it wasn't supposed to bear, namely the result it produced, unless if you think the Templar in question was secretly a mage and could use blood magic to dominate the mind of the Mages or Templar to look into their mind. Secondly :/ It wouldn't be a group of tempalrs fighting mages though, it would be a rogue Templar plus three mages fighting against a group of Templars. Do you think Templars would gleefully slaughter their brothers and sisters?

 

Point being for whatever reason, They didn't attack, Your speculative attacks and my defense doesn't change what Gaider wrote.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No she is the only in the book who let her...urges dictate her action

Due to the pause, I read that in the Salarian Dalatrass voice and this image popped up.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm curious to know where in the book it says Lambert investigated the Templar's role in the mage escaping the White Spire? And I'm sorry, I don't agree that standing on a person's neck while telling them their feelings are pointless and unreasonable will lead to an abatement of tensions.

 

That was actually what drew Lambert to the Spire in the first place, it was how Adrian and Rhys originally met the Lord Seeker, he was speaking to the Enchanters of the nutjob assassin's fraternity. So it paints plainly he was looking into Jenot's attempt on the Divine's life. And i am sorry that i am not of the mind that people deliberately inflaming the situation should somehow be intrinsically linked to the failure of the system in question.

 

 

It also exists to safeguard mages from harm. Evangeline had good reason to question Lambert's intentions. It's not like she had a Seeker she could report him to if she felt he was out of line.

 

 

Lambert failed to keep the mages of the spire safefguarded? You mean when Lambert took an interest in Rhy's for possibly being a murderer and under demonic influence? Or do you mean when The man offered those speaking treason a free pass out the front door if they merely submitted Rhy's again who was a murder suspect and possibly under demonic influence to the Lord Seeker, Hardly unapproachable.

 

 

I disagree. She didn't fold to Lambert's attempts to get her to lie and kill for his personal vendetta. She had good reasons not to. And you accuse her of doing what she did out of her feelings for Rhys, but you are fine with Lambert letting his rage dictate his decisions? 

 

Personal Vendetta? You mean his duty? Protecting Thedas from Magic, allowing that research to leave the fortress allowed the conclave to be called, it allowed Fiona a place to spew her garbage and it allowed Adrian her murder chance, Namely every event that transpired that pushed the System into oblivion occurred because she couldn't see the big picture, namely that stability and order require sacrifice occasionally. Lambert acted with dedication to his office and his oath, His hand was forced by others, had he done his actions with out the prompting of other factors? Yes i would agree he was letting his past dedicate his duties, but that isn't what occurred, his actions weren't the product of a vacuum.

[Master Warder Z_]

Due to the pause, I read that in the Salarian Dalatrass voice and this image popped up.

 

Well its more polite then other things i could have said...That's all.

[The Baconer]

Again there were only there to kill them if something unforunate was discovered, it was as if Lambert sent them out there only to be killed, it was a last resort scenario.Speculation that the research bore fruit that it wasn't supposed to bear, namely the result it produced, unless if you think the Templar in question was secretly a mage and could use blood magic to dominate the mind of the Mages or Templar to look into their mind.

 

It is quite possible that Evangeline revealed the results of the experiment to the other Templars, we don't know what exactly was said during their exchanges, but they had an intense argument.

 

And of course, there's the clearly distraught elf with a sun branded on his forehead. I don't think you need blood magic to infer that it might be the aforementioned Tranquil that was said to be conducting the research.

 

Secondly :/ It wouldn't be a group of tempalrs fighting mages though, it would be a rogue Templar plus three mages fighting against a group of Templars. Do you think Templars would gleefully slaughter their brothers and sisters?

 

Point being for whatever reason, They didn't attack, Your speculative attacks and my defense doesn't change what Gaider wrote.

 

Whether they do it gleefully or not is irrelevant. They either possess the strength of will to carry out their duties, or they don't.

[Master Warder Z_]

It is quite possible that Evangeline revealed the results of the experiment to the other Templars, we don't know what exactly was said during their exchanges, but they had an intense argument.

 

And of course, there's the clearly distraught elf with a sun branded on his forehead. I don't think you need blood magic to infer that it might be the aforementioned Tranquil that was said to be conducting the research.

 

 

Whether they do it gleefully or not is irrelevant. They either possess the strength of will to carry out their duties, or they don't.

 

 

Lambert obviously possesses that will no?

 

As i said in conclusion last time, Ultimately this defense and assault are pointless, what happened here happened.

 

Gaider already wrote the book.

[The Baconer]

Lambert obviously possesses that will no?

 

Right... but he's dumb.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of ways a "chest-pounding gorilla" type would be useful in an organization such as the Templars... but you probably wouldn't want to give them a position of real authority, especially for an organization that is supposed to handle much more complex matters, such as the Seekers.

[Grieving Natashina]

I did want to mention one more thing about the book: One part made me cry so hard that I had to put it down.  When I read the description of what it feels like to be Tranquil, it struck a cord so deep that I couldn't stop crying for awhile.  

 

Getting a little personal: I had a shrink diagnose me with mild anxiety disorder.  Nothing major, since I had scored low on both of her tests.  Then she put me on Seroquel, and had me step up to 300mg a day within 2 weeks.  That stuff at 10mg can knock a full grown man of 200 lbs on his butt.  That entire description of Tranquility, including a "dream that you can't wake from" is exactly what it felt like.  I was lucky.  I stopped the meds with no side effects and went back to being myself again.  When it was all over, I had lost 6 weeks of my life.  I have a few scant memories of that time period, but that "dream within a waking dream" feeling is something I'll never forget.

 

I have always picked the option "I'd rather die than be Tranquil" on Hawke, before I really understood what that meant.  I believe it now more than ever.

[Master Warder Z_]

Right... but he's dumb.

 

You're position, and that position seems to stem from his attempt at playing the "game" when in truth i don't even think he was doing that given he is a noble from Orlais he is the Lord Seeker, he need no play it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Getting a little personal: I had a shrink diagnose me with mild anxiety disorder.  Nothing major, since I had scored low on both of her tests.  Then she put me on Seroquel,

 

 

I have always picked the option "I'd rather die than be Tranquil" on Hawke, before I really understood what that meant.  I believe it now more than ever.

 

Having had my experience with the substance i need not even read the rest, i understand where that viewpoint comes from.

 

Still support the rite, but i understand why people are against it, i understood that before it got real clarification, but again i have always supported it.

 

My belief in the rite being a mercy and boon is a genuine one.

[The Baconer]

You're position, and that position seems to stem from his attempt at playing the "game" when in truth i don't even think he was doing that given he is a noble from Orlais he is the Lord Seeker, he need no play it.

 

Maybe he's not playing The Game of Orlais, but he was definitely playing a game of sorts. Going behind the back of the Divine, sending a single Templar to accompany three mages across a war-torn Orlais and a Darkspawn-infested desert. Strongly suggesting, but not making any official order, that Evangeline kill said mages depending on what they find in Adamant. Everything is on the down-low.

 

If he doesn't need to play the game, as you say, then why is he playing it?

[Master Warder Z_]

Maybe he's not playing The Game of Orlais, but he was definitely playing a game of sorts. Going behind the back of the Divine, sending a single Templar to accompany three mages across a war-torn Orlais and a Darkspawn-infested desert. Strongly suggesting, but not making any official order, that Evangeline kill said mages depending on what they find in Adamant. Everything is on the down-low.

 

If he doesn't need to play the game, as you say, then why is he playing it?

 

Why do you imply he was playing it at all?

 

He could merely have been informing the Knight Captain of the situation at present and then reminding her, of her duty to the circle and order it self.

 

I don't see it as overly subversive, in fact given he was content to only allow this under the premise of the research bearing fruit, it was a worst case scenario she was being advised.

[The Baconer]

He could merely have been informing the Knight Captain of the situation at present and then reminding her, of her duty to the circle and order it self.

 

I don't see it as overly subversive, in fact given he was content to only allow this under the premise of the research bearing fruit, it was a worst case scenario she was being advised.

 

Right. Wink, wink, nod, nod. He just strongly reminds her of her "duties" (since, at this point the Order has not split from the Chantry, she owes as much loyalty to the Divine as she does the Order), while giving no official order, but when she fails to do the stuff she wasn't-really-ordered-to-do-but-it-was-very-strongly-suggested, he is unable to officially strip her of her rank, for whatever reason.

 

And, let's assume the mages don't make it out of the Adamant Fortress. What's the press-release? That they merely got lost in the wastes, as you suggested? Lies, deceit... that's literally playing the game.

[Banxey]

 

 

That was actually what drew Lambert to the Spire in the first place, it was how Adrian and Rhys originally met the Lord Seeker, he was speaking to the Enchanters of the nutjob assassin's fraternity. So it paints plainly he was looking into Jenot's attempt on the Divine's life. And i am sorry that i am not of the mind that people deliberately inflaming the situation should somehow be intrinsically linked to the failure of the system in question.

 

 

I don't remember him saying anything about the possibility that Templars were involved. Jeannot was the head of the fraternity and Lambert accuses the fraternity. The way it reads to me is that he is blaming the fraternity and.. case closed? Evangeline was there during the meeting and she didn't consider that Templars may have been involved until later in the book. 

 

Lambert failed to keep the mages of the spire safefguarded? You mean when Lambert took an interest in Rhy's for possibly being a murderer and under demonic influence? Or do you mean when The man offered those speaking treason a free pass out the front door if they merely submitted Rhy's again who was a murder suspect and possibly under demonic influence to the Lord Seeker, Hardly unapproachable.

 

This part of the argument came from me saying Evangeline had good reason to doubt Lambert's intention. You said Templars were able to ignore the will of the Divine because they were created to protect the world from mages. I said they also existed to protect mages. Evangeline was ordered to kill Wynne, Rhys, and Adrian. She had doubts as to whether this was the right course of action and Lambert had created a conflict of interest. She defied the order and took it to the Divine because who else could she report to? Is she supposed to tell Lambert the Lord Seeker that Lambert the Knight Commander ordered her to murder mages who were doing work at the request of the Divine? Later in the book he tries to coerce her into lying to the conclave in exchange for him giving Rhys a fair chance. She refuses.

 

 

Personal Vendetta? You mean his duty? Protecting Thedas from Magic, allowing that research to leave the fortress allowed the conclave to be called, it allowed Fiona a place to spew her garbage and it allowed Adrian her murder chance, Namely every event that transpired that pushed the System into oblivion occurred because she couldn't see the big picture, namely that stability and order require sacrifice occasionally. Lambert acted with dedication to his office and his oath, His hand was forced by others, had he done his actions with out the prompting of other factors? Yes i would agree he was letting his past dedicate his duties, but that isn't what occurred, his actions weren't the product of a vacuum.

 

 

What stability? There is not much in the way of stability at the beginning of Asunder. Perhaps there may have been had he done his duty in Kirkwall. If so the research would have been a non-issue. Of course Kirkwall was beginning to go to hell before Justinia even became Divine. But yes, personal vendetta. Lambert acted with malice and rage. HIs views on mages are founded on his personal failures.That he can hide his malice behind his duties as a Templar yet not address his duties as a Seeker show there is a complete and utter failure in the system.

[Grieving Natashina]

Having had my experience with the substance i need not even read the rest, i understand where that viewpoint comes from.

 

Still support the rite, but i understand why people are against it, i understood that before it got real clarification, but again i have always supported it.

 

My belief in the rite being a mercy and boon is a genuine one.

I stand my belief that death is a greater mercy and Tranquility is a band-aid.  Funny how education might be the key rather than just keeping to a system that strips a person of their very self.

 

The one time in the book I found myself in 100% agreement with Adrian was when she said that it would better to kill them than to use them as weapons and/or turn them all into puppets.  It was the only time I completely agreed with her, but I had said the exact same thing after reading the description of Tranquility.

 

How you can say you've been on Seroquel and claim that Tranquility is a good thing really escapes me.  I know you've tried to explain it before and I do respect your views.  It just boggles me that you think Tranquility (which unlike a drug, is pretty much permanent) is better than death.  Especially after being on a drug that mimics that description almost perfectly.

[Master Warder Z_]

Right. Wink, wink, nod, nod. He just strongly reminds her of her "duties" (since, at this point the Order has not split from the Chantry, she owes as much loyalty to the Divine as she does the Order), while giving no official order, but when she fails to do the stuff she wasn't-really-ordered-to-do-but-it-was-very-strongly-suggested, he is unable to officially strip her of her rank, for whatever reason.

 

And, let's assume the mages don't make it out of the Adamant Fortress. What's the press-release? That they merely got lost in the wastes, as you suggested? Lies, deceit... that's literally playing the game.

 

Its using the sacrifices of those mages to support the system, to ensure there isn't a war.

 

It isn't the game because it isn't done out boredom or ego, its not vanity but need that drives that action.

[The Baconer]

It isn't the game because it isn't done out boredom or ego, its not vanity but need that drives that action.

 

Like Celene in the Masked Empire?

 

It's not boredom, ego, or vanity that makes the game, it's how you play.

[Grieving Natashina]

Like Celene in the Masked Empire?

 

It's not boredom, ego, or vanity that makes the game, it's how you play.

I can see Vivienne and Leliana saying that very same thing.