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[Banxey]

Just in case.. If you guys are going to start talking about the pre-released chapter of The Masked Empire could you please consider putting information behind spoiler tags? I'd appreciate it.

[Master Warder Z_]

What stability? There is not much in the way of stability at the beginning of Asunder. Perhaps there may have been had he done his duty in Kirkwall. If so the research would have been a non-issue. Of course Kirkwall was beginning to go to hell before Justinia even became Divine. But yes, personal vendetta. Lambert acted with malice and rage. HIs views on mages are founded on his personal failures.That he can hide his malice behind his duties as a Templar yet not address his duties as a Seeker show there is a complete and utter failure in the system.

 

Only one circle had been Annulled post Kirkwall and that was one that decided it was time to leave the circle and ignore Chantry and Magi law on the issue, Apart from there? There was tension yes but it would have faded. You cannot maintain the perfect storm forever, or at least that is my mindset on it, I mean can you expect this entire conflict of interest if that research hadn't been revealed to either party now? Or if there had been a decade or two since Kirkwall's Annulment and Chantry Detonation? Outrage and hatred fade into history.  Also we have no idea if Lambert was even Lord Seeker at the time of Act 3 or 2 little lone that he was ignoring his duties, As i said before there could have been several conveinent reasons for the Seekers to be absent in Kirkwall for the majority of the game, You know allow the Game to occur, we just don't know as of yet, perhaps DAI will shed some light on it. But i won't work on the assumption that it was automatically Lambert ignoring his duties.

 

 

This part of the argument came from me saying Evangeline had good reason to doubt Lambert's intention. You said Templars were able to ignore the will of the Divine because they were created to protect the world from mages. I said they also existed to protect mages. Evangeline was ordered to kill Wynne, Rhys, and Adrian. She had doubts as to whether this was the right course of action and Lambert had created a conflict of interest. She defied the order and took it to the Divine because who else could she report to? Is she supposed to tell Lambert the Lord Seeker that Lambert the Knight Commander ordered her to murder mages who were doing work at the request of the Divine? Later in the book he tries to coerce her into lying to the conclave in exchange for him giving Rhys a fair chance. She refuses.

 

A Portion of their duties exists to safeguarding both mage and normal person yes, To contain magic, they have an oath to do these things. And i view What Lambert suggested as that, You have the possible removal of three possible inconveniences, or you possibly have mass Annulments or War. Three or Dozens, Possibly hundreds. Ultimately she put her personal feelings ahead of her duties, That wasn't a failing as a Templar i grant her that given Lambert never directly ordered her to do anything, But she did Aggravate the situation and made it much more tenuous, and that i do credit as a failing. He offered her a way out, a way out for all of them, Possible peace but she choose to ignore that path. it's easy to sit in judgement of one man when you do not share the Burden of his office.

 

 

I don't remember him saying anything about the possibility that Templars were involved. Jeannot was the head of the fraternity and Lambert accuses the fraternity. The way it reads to me is that he is blaming the fraternity and.. case closed? Evangeline was there during the meeting and she didn't consider that Templars may have been involved until later in the book. 

 

No, He didn't mention that. And no it wasn't cased closed, it seems you are selectively remembering things, if he continued or even resumed the investigation we are unsure given that once the arrival of Wynne occurs its never mentioned again if he resumed it or no. So credit that to Gaider, we don't know if he ever came up with who actually did it or not, events transpired that pushed him away from that assignment.

[Master Warder Z_]

I stand my belief that death is a greater mercy and Tranquility is a band-aid.  Funny how education might be the key rather than just keeping to a system that strips a person of their very self.

 

The one time in the book I found myself in 100% agreement with Adrian was when she said that it would better to kill them than to use them as weapons and/or turn them all into puppets.  It was the only time I completely agreed with her, but I had said the exact same thing after reading the description of Tranquility.

 

How you can say you've been on Seroquel and claim that Tranquility is a good thing really escapes me.  I know you've tried to explain it before and I do respect your views.  It just boggles me that you think Tranquility (which unlike a drug, is pretty much permanent) is better than death.  Especially after being on a drug that mimics that description almost perfectly.

 

This conversation would go very deeply into my personal life and while i ultimately don't have any issue with that given its the past and its done, it would bring the thread out of topic.

 

If you like i can PM You my reasoning for this, but given we are both going off of two separate experiences, perhaps you will merely take my word for it when i say that.

 

The finality of death shouldn't be considered a mercy unless if you actively seek it, perhaps delusional oblivion or unawareness is better.

[leaguer of one]

1.Ser Irminric is a Knight-Lieutenant and brother of Bann Alfstanna of Waking Sea.

2.Another was mentioned being knighted in Antiva in a Codex i cannot recall.

3.Nothing confirmed but its a deep rooted speculation i have had since DAO. Do you think they were skimming the coffers in Denerim to pay for their Lyrium to be smuggled to them in Redcliffe? Same for Kirkwall? Either they were stealing or misappropriating funds from the Chantry or they had the funds already, do you think they would steal from their church? Ultimately i suppose that's the question.

1. That does not mean the entire order has noble connections. The mages have more noble connections than the templars. Look at Vivianne.

 

2. The templar order does not have separate finances from the chantry. In fact their pay come directly from the chantry.

[Grieving Natashina]

@Kain I'll trust your experience and I'll PM you sometime.

 

The finality of death versus the finality of the loss of self is the same thing to me.  Why stay alive to live in a dream where you have no aspirations, no drives?  I'd rather be at the Maker's side (or not) than be a passionless person that cannot love, or hate, or care ever again.  Delusional oblivion or unawareness would make someone little better than a zombie and even worse than usual Tranquility.  They now get to be used in anyway someone sees fit (and let's hope they have a good hearted person looking out for them) with the bonus of not being there mentally.  That's not a mercy, that's a very Qun way to look at things: Better that the serve the Qun the Chantry as a puppet than let them just die.

 

Forget that.  Let me die before I become senile.  Let me die before I lose what makes me "me."  I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on this.

 

Tranquility is a temporary solution that became permanent due to laziness, poor education by the masses and the use of fear as power by the Chantry.  It should be abolished.  If not, then set up a system for Templars that abuse their charges.  Come up with a version of Tranquility for them, strip them of their emotions and dreams  and see what the Order thinks of it.  I'm betting it would not go over well to say the very least.

 

Until the Templars even have an inkling of what Tranquility can be like to live through, it needs to stop.

[leaguer of one]

Lambert made a few mistakes here and there, but the mages and that damned Divine really drove the conflict forward. 

 

If I can see Adrian skewered alive and Fiona blown up, I'll be a happy inquisitor. 

 

I really can't believe that others are willing to risk Thedas falling into complete ruin with free mages running around. 

 

Lock them up, maintain order and only bring them out when absolutely necessary. If we have to look to the Qun for inspiration, so be it. 

How is asking for rights driving the conflict? The mages asked for more freedom and the templars were some how forced to beat them for asking? And the divine is at fault for undoing the action of a subordinate that does not listen to her orders?

 

Please, Lambert is at fault here and the only mages that are at fault are the ones the killed the former tranquil.

[leaguer of one]

@Kain I'll trust your experience and I'll PM you sometime.

 

The finality of death versus the finality of the loss of self is the same thing to me.  Why stay alive to live in a dream where you have no aspirations, no drives?  I'd rather be at the Maker's side (or not) than be a passionless person that cannot love, or hate, or care ever again.  Delusional oblivion or unawareness would make someone little better than a zombie and even worse than usual Tranquility.  They now get to be used in anyway someone sees fit (and let's hope they have a good hearted person looking out for them) with the bonus of not being there mentally.  That's not a mercy, that's a very Qun way to look at things: Better that the serve the Qun the Chantry as a puppet than let them just die.

 

Forget that.  Let me die before I become senile.  Let me die before I lose what makes me "me."  I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on this.

 

Tranquility is a temporary solution that became permanent due to laziness, poor education by the masses and the use of fear as power by the Chantry.  It should be abolished.  If not, then set up a system for Templars that abuse their charges.  Come up with a version of Tranquility for them, strip them of their emotions and dreams  and see what the Order thinks of it.  I'm betting it would not go over well to say the very least.

 

Until the Templars even have an inkling of what Tranquility can be like to live through, it needs to stop.

But they don't lose what make them "them". Emotions are not what makes use what we are. They are just part of us. Tranquil are still self aware andsentient. Saying they are no longer who they were would be like saying a person with out a hand is no longer who they are.

[Grieving Natashina]

But they don't lose what make them "them". Emotions are not what makes use what we are. They are just part of us. Tranquil are still self aware andsentient. Saying they are no longer who they were would be like saying a person with out a hand is no longer who they are.

Without my emotions, without my dreams and passions, I wouldn't be me.  The Tranquilty are not entirely who they are before.  Emotions make up part of who we are, what we want to be and for them, that is lost forever.  Equating emotions with a hand is ridiculous to say the least.  You can work with a missing hand, but missing your passions and dreams is something is a devastating loss.  

[Banxey]

 

Only one circle had been Annulled post Kirkwall and that was one that decided it was time to leave the circle and ignore Chantry and Magi law on the issue, Apart from there? There was tension yes but it would have faded. You cannot maintain the perfect storm forever, or at least that is my mindset on it, I mean can you expect this entire conflict of interest if that research hadn't been revealed to either party now? Or if there had been a decade or two since Kirkwall's Annulment and Chantry Detonation? Outrage and hatred fade into history.  Also we have no idea if Lambert was even Lord Seeker at the time of Act 3 or 2 little lone that he was ignoring his duties, As i said before there could have been several conveinent reasons for the Seekers to be absent in Kirkwall for the majority of the game, You know allow the Game to occur, we just don't know as of yet, perhaps DAI will shed some light on it. But i won't work on the assumption that it was automatically Lambert ignoring his duties.

 

Even assuming that all that is true there was failure of Seekers. But no, I don't believe that this is a problem that would have gone away without reforms. It was not a storm in a teacup. It was building for a long time and had no reason not to continue doing so. But I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

A Portion of their duties exists to safeguarding both mage and normal person yes, To contain magic, they have an oath to do these things. And i view What Lambert suggested as that, You have the possible removal of three possible inconveniences, or you possibly have mass Annulments or War. Three or Dozens, Possibly hundreds. Ultimately she put her personal feelings ahead of her duties, That wasn't a failing as a Templar i grant her that given Lambert never directly ordered her to do anything, But she did Aggravate the situation and made it much more tenuous, and that i do credit as a failing. He offered her a way out, a way out for all of them, Possible peace but she choose to ignore that path. it's easy to sit in judgement of one man when you do not share the Burden of his office.

 

I don't see how not trusting your superior and deciding to go over their head is putting personal feelings ahead of duty. She had no reason not to trust the Divine. She had reason not to trust Lambert. *shrug*

 

No, He didn't mention that. And no it wasn't cased closed, it seems you are selectively remembering things, if he continued or even resumed the investigation we are unsure given that once the arrival of Wynne occurs its never mentioned again if he resumed it or no. So credit that to Gaider, we don't know if he ever came up with who actually did it or not, events transpired that pushed him away from that assignment.

 

 

After what happened in Dawn of the Seeker, I think it should have been a bigger priority. But my point was that Evangeline was the senior Templar in the tower after he removed Eron and she knew nothing about him suspecting Templars. If it was something he considered, why would he not question Evangeline? Or why would he have Evangeline in the room while he questioned Rhys? None of his actions suggest he thought Templars played a role in the assassination attempt.

 

I think it's pretty obvious we're not going to agree on this Warder. But I suppose ultimately my position is that someone with a cooler head and less baggage would have done a better job as Lord Seeker than Lambert. You don't seem to think so, which is fine and all, but I'm never going to see eye to eye with you on that one. 

 

Edited for clarification.

[leaguer of one]

Without my emotions, without my dreams and passions, I wouldn't be me.  The Tranquilty are not entirely who they are before.  Emotions make up part of who we are, what we want to be and for them, that is lost forever.  Equating emotions with a hand is ridiculous to say the least.  You can work with a missing hand, but missing your passions and dreams is something is a devastating loss.  

Literally emotion do not make us who we are. It's just a chemical reaction based on parts of our brain. We are still self aware beings even if we have limited emotions. Even the former tranquil in Asunder pointed out when he used to be tranquil he still was able to make his own choices. You may not like not having emotions or limited emotion but you still don't need them. In fact if you were born with limiter emotions you would not even know the difference.

[Grieving Natashina]

Literally emotion do not make us who we are. It's just a chemical reaction based on parts of our brain. We are still self aware beings even if we have limited emotions. Even the former tranquil in Asunder pointed out when he used to be tranquil he still was able to make his own choices. You may not like not having emotions or limited emotion but you still don't need them. In fact if you were born with limiter emotions you would not even know the difference.

That is subjective.  It may be "just a chemical thing" but brain activity is nothing but electric signals.  We can reduce the entire human experience to something that clinical.  What separates us from other beings isn't just our ability to feel, but to create of our own volition.  To have our passions drive us forward to discover new things, and plan for the future.  Tranquil, while it's very true that they have free will (as proven in the book) cannot do any of those things without being directed to.  They have no passions, no drive.  Even having limited emotions would be better than nothing, which is all the Tranquil get.

 

Besides, this isn't about "if you were born that way," this is about becoming Tranquil, and what it can mean.  I do not think anyone that becomes Tranquil is the same as before and I think they are missing a fundamental part of themselves forever.  I will never agree with Tranquility, no matter how anyone tries to spin it.  

[dragonflight288]

@ leaguer of one

 

I don't want to get too much into my personal life, but I can say from experience that having emotions is a very large difference, and is in fact, needed to be a well-rounded and fully functional adult. 

[LobselVith8]

According to WoT, "Tranquil can no longer cast spells, and although free will persists, they rarely exercise it. Without emotions, they have nothing to guide them but the will of others." (page 101)

[Divine Justinia V]

Is Lambert out of his mother loving mind?

 

Yes.

[dragonflight288]

Yes.

 

Wait one second....Lambert had a loving mother? 

[Grieving Natashina]

Wait one second....Lambert had a loving mother? 

Sure he did.  One word for Lambert: Daddy issues.  

 

On that note, I'm going to retreat from the thread for awhile.  I'm playing some Diablo 3 and if anyone wants to join me, I'll be tabbing out from time to time to check PMs.  I'll send my battle tag for those that are interested.

[dragonflight288]

Sure he did.  One word for Lambert: Daddy issues.  

 

On that note, I'm going to retreat from the thread for awhile.  I'm playing some Diablo 3 and if anyone wants to join me, I'll be tabbing out from time to time to check PMs.  I'll send my battle tag for those that are interested.

 

Cool. I haven't played Diablo 3 in over a year.

[Grieving Natashina]

Cool. I haven't played Diablo 3 in over a year.

You should!  They made a lot of great changes.  It's, um, the game it should have been in the first place.  I've been recommending my friends to come back and although they were wary, they're hooked.  Both the gold AH and the RMAH have gone away now, and the loot has been adjusted accordingly.  It wasn't until the patch right before the expansion that I even had a desire to go back.  So far though, I've been having more fun with the game than I ever have.

 

Sorry for the Diablo derail folks. 

[Divine Justinia V]

Sure he did.  One word for Lambert: Daddy issues.  

 

On that note, I'm going to retreat from the thread for awhile.  I'm playing some Diablo 3 and if anyone wants to join me, I'll be tabbing out from time to time to check PMs.  I'll send my battle tag for those that are interested.

 

I know all about those and from my professional opinion, you are correct.

 

Are you playing the expansion only? I was thinking about buying it tonight/tomorrow to keep me occupied since I'm stuck in bed.

[leaguer of one]

That is subjective.  It may be "just a chemical thing" but brain activity is nothing but electric signals.  We can reduce the entire human experience to something that clinical.  What separates us from other beings isn't just our ability to feel, but to create of our own volition.  To have our passions drive us forward to discover new things, and plan for the future.  Tranquil, while it's very true that they have free will (as proven in the book) cannot do any of those things without being directed to.  They have no passions, no drive.  Even having limited emotions would be better than nothing, which is all the Tranquil get.

 

Besides, this isn't about "if you were born that way," this is about becoming Tranquil, and what it can mean.  I do not think anyone that becomes Tranquil is the same as before and I think they are missing a fundamental part of themselves forever.  I will never agree with Tranquility, no matter how anyone tries to spin it.  

No. This is objective. This is a concept of brain science. This is literally how emotions are. You really don't need them. And the brain function based on chemical application. Any electrical activity is bio electric in nature, that still means it's a chemical reaction, like batteries.

 

And no what separates us from other being is not is not being able to create of our own volition.Their other being who are not human on this world who can do the same, look up painting elephants and animals or even the action of crows, magie pies and ravens. What make humans stand out is how far we can take that capacity of creation and civilization. But under no means emotions are far from need for that.

 

And the use of tranquility is not wrong. It would be more wrong to not have the choice available. The only thing that would be wrong about it is the use of it as a weapon by the templars. It's supposed to be an aid for mages who can handle their power or afraid of it.

 

 

Example:

"Orana was brought to the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall at the age of five. Her mentors had high hopes for the child, seeing her talent for magic. Unfortunately, the poor child was plagued by nightmares that only worsened after her move to the Gallows.

Orana became afraid of falling asleep. She would lie stiffly in bed, her eyes wide open. Without sleep, she grew thin and wan, and her studies began to suffer.

Orana began to experience waking dreams. Shadows flitted in corners, and she swore she heard voices calling her name. She knew demons could take advantage of her vulnerable state, and at the tender age of eleven, she requested to be made Tranquil. The first enchanter complied.

With her connection to the Fade severed, Orana was again able to sleep. Her health returned, and she was at peace with her decision. She continued her education at the Circle and excelled in enchanting and runecrafting.

Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer."

http://dragonage.wik...uility_(amulet)

 

There is a reason for it. To help mages. The issue is it's miss use. Having to be force to a choice of tranquility or having a life of madness facing demons is equal as bad as death or having a life of madness facing demons. All 3 choices should be available.

 

You have an opinion on it but to force it on other is also wrong as well.

 

There is a quote from me2 that points this out.

"No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism"

-Legion.

 

This goes for individuals as well. What you don't like or see as wrong could be different to another. just because you don't like the choice does not mean you should deny others that choice.

[leaguer of one]

@ leaguer of one

 

I don't want to get too much into my personal life, but I can say from experience that having emotions is a very large difference, and is in fact, needed to be a well-rounded and fully functional adult. 

Stable emotions are needed for that, not emotions in general.

[leaguer of one]

According to WoT, "Tranquil can no longer cast spells, and although free will persists, they rarely exercise it. Without emotions, they have nothing to guide them but the will of others." (page 101)

According to a person who literally was tranquil that comment is slightly wrong.

[dragonflight288]

Stable emotions are needed for that, not emotions in general.

 

And tranquil lack them completely, therefore they also lack the capacity to sympathize, empathize, or even care. Pharamond never hesitated in his research that got hundreds of people killed while searching for an alternative to tranquility because he couldn't care. 

 

Some may argue that tranquility has its merits, it allows mages to have an easier time working with lyrium, removes any chance of becoming an abomination, but they also lose any sense of morality as they lack the capacity to care at all. And in the case of pharamond, can result in a lot of death, just as much as any abomination or army. 

 

 

According to a person who literally was tranquil that comment is slightly wrong.

 

Are you referring to Owain and his decision to keep cleaning the stockroom despite all the abominations because it was his responsibility?

[KainD]

Tranquil are not people. 

[AresKeith]

Tranquil are not people.