328 réponses à ce sujet

[Helios969]

I can buy Despair as being stronger than Pride.  Despair can mire enemies in hopelessness...take away their will to fight.  Pride (the arrogant) might make me personally fight harder.  Pride is often overconfident too.

[Dean_the_Young]

If so, that's stupid. How despair is stronger than pride in terms of negative atrribute I'll never understand. specially since GPD are thought to be capable of destroying the world if they crossed the Veil.

 

The strength of the negative attributes themselves is arbitrary- we've had the Forgotten Ones who seem to be completely at odds with the standard hierarchy, for example. Is a weak sloth demon stronger than a strong rage demon?

 

Mind you, the Circle's classification is pretty general and imprecise as it is.

[Lulupab]

With given evidence which is not enough to judge but its worth noticing, Spirits have been always the winning party when they fought with a demon. Also Spirit abominations seems to be stronger as well, maybe its because the mages are not mere meat in such merging and its a true alliance between the mage and spirit, making the mage have infinite connection to the fade.

[BlueMagitek]

Willingly making a pact with an otherwordly creature with the intent that you, oh special of special mages, will be able to resist when so many others have failed?

 

That's about as good an idea as bedding Morinth is, and I would imagine roughly the same outcome (game over).  Just imagine it, you make a deal with a rage demon, entrap him in the Fade, and as you try and leave... well, it turns out you were deceived!  The rage demon was actually a pawn of a Pride demon.  Woe to you, who thought you could accomplish such a thing without attracting notice of powers infinitely greater than your own.

 

And yes, demons do pull this trick, read up the Spirit Healer page.

[Grieving Natashina]

Willingly making a pact with an otherwordly creature with the intent that you, oh special of special mages, will be able to resist when so many others have failed?

 

That's about as good an idea as bedding Morinth is, and I would imagine roughly the same outcome (game over).  Just imagine it, you make a deal with a rage demon, entrap him in the Fade, and as you try and leave... well, it turns out you were deceived!  The rage demon was actually a pawn of a Pride demon.  Woe to you, who thought you could accomplish such a thing without attracting notice of powers infinitely greater than your own.

 

And yes, demons do pull this trick, read up the Spirit Healer page.

I never played the ME games, but I made it a point to look that scene up after hearing about it.  That was...interesting.  When this thread topic came up, my first thought was a non-standard game over, only replace Morinth with a Desire Demon.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The strength of the negative attributes themselves is arbitrary- we've had the Forgotten Ones who seem to be completely at odds with the standard hierarchy, for example. Is a weak sloth demon stronger than a strong rage demon?

 

Mind you, the Circle's classification is pretty general and imprecise as it is.

There are exceptions, certainly. Sloth having Desire Demons serve under him in the Broken Circle quest is proof of that. I'm talking more in general.

 

 

With given evidence which is not enough to judge but its worth noticing, Spirits have been always the winning party when they fought with a demon. Also Spirit abominations seems to be stronger as well, maybe its because the mages are not mere meat in such merging and its a true alliance between the mage and spirit, making the mage have infinite connection to the fade.

There's no such thing as a Spirit Abomination. By definition, an abomination is when a demon possesses a mage. 

[Hellion Rex]

There's no such thing as a Spirit Abomination. By definition, an abomination is when a demon possesses a mage. 

 

When a spirit or demon possesses a mage. Wynne was an abomination, as was Anders.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

 

There's no such thing as a Spirit Abomination. By definition, an abomination is when a demon possesses a mage. 

 

That definition depends on there being a meaningful, not artificial, distinction between demons and spirits.

 

If demons and spirits are actually equivalent, like the Dalish believe, then all demon possessions are spirit possessions as well.

[Hellion Rex]

Do you subscribe to that Dalish mindset towards spirits, Dean?

[EmissaryofLies]

Perhaps you should settle with hitting each other over the head with WoT?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

When a spirit or demon possesses a mage. Wynne was an abomination, as was Anders.

 

That definition depends on there being a meaningful, not artificial, distinction between demons and spirits.

 

If demons and spirits are actually equivalent, like the Dalish believe, then all demon possessions are spirit possessions as well.

Oops, forgot the at the end of it. Didn't expect people would take that seriously, though I stand by the definition. 

[Hellion Rex]

Perhaps you should settle with hitting each other over the head with WoT?

One Emissary repellant coming right up!

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Do you subscribe to that Dalish mindset towards spirits, Dean?

 

I at least think it's closer to the truth than the Chantry: all spirits can be dangerous because all spirits are focused on their precept. Extremism of any virtue can be a vice as surely as any vice. (Likewise, vices can be channeled into productive, or at least non-malevolent, outputs.)

 

Rather than the Chantry's 'demons are bad and spirits are good', I suspect abominations are more nuanced- you can pretty clearly have abominations that are capable and willing to go some time without going on a rampage (Feynriel's sloth demon comes to mind), just as someone with a spirit can be driven by the spirit (Justice/Vengeance). Slapping the demon/benevolent spirit label on it is retroactive logic, not really a prescriptive label of what they will do or be once unified. I suspect that depends far more on both the spirit and person in question, as well as the nature of the union.

 

There might be fundamental differences, but so far I haven't been convinced. The biggest difference we can identify is the alleged (not proven) claim that demons are more interested in getting into and interacting with the material world than spirits. But that's dubious and suspicious as it is, and can be explained by other factors as well (such as demonic hierarchies in the fade).

[wcholcombe]

I at least think it's closer to the truth than the Chantry: all spirits can be dangerous because all spirits are focused on their precept. Extremism of any virtue can be a vice as surely as any vice. (Likewise, vices can be channeled into productive, or at least non-malevolent, outputs.)

 

Rather than the Chantry's 'demons are bad and spirits are good', I suspect abominations are more nuanced- you can pretty clearly have abominations that are capable and willing to go some time without going on a rampage (Feynriel's sloth demon comes to mind), just as someone with a spirit can be driven by the spirit (Justice/Vengeance). Slapping the demon/benevolent spirit label on it is retroactive logic, not really a prescriptive label of what they will do or be once unified. I suspect that depends far more on both the spirit and person in question, as well as the nature of the union.

 

There might be fundamental differences, but so far I haven't been convinced. The biggest difference we can identify is the alleged (not proven) claim that demons are more interested in getting into and interacting with the material world than spirits. But that's dubious and suspicious as it is, and can be explained by other factors as well (such as demonic hierarchies in the fade).

In truth, I don't know that the Chantry or Templars truly believe spirits are good.  They certainly don't like Rhys studying spirits in Asunder and Lambert definitly thinks all spirits and demons are bad.

 

The difference to me seems to be more an idea of how the spirit relates to the person.  Faith obviously has no desire to control Wynne, which is why I have trouble labeling her an abomination. She has a link to the spirit in the fade, but she is in no way controlled or truly possessed by Faith.

 

Anders is an interesting question yes, but Gaider has hinted at their being mitigating circumstances for the drastic change in justince. Ander's taint, him being removed from the fade, etc.  I think a spirit has a much less intrusive coexistance with a mage typically then any demon does.  As we have seen, demons seek to control, most actual spirits we have seen  do not.

 

I don't get into the Chantry bit on the relation to the maker, I subscribe to the way tevinter magisters classified them from their experiences in the fade.

[sunnydxmen]

Who would want to be a abomination.

[KainD]

Who would want to be a abomination.

 

Someone who is interested in getting more power. Someone who is interested in understanding fade entities and the fade more. Someone who is interested in sharing their world with such entity. Someone who sees other benefits from such unions. Many reasons really. 

[The Baconer]

Who would want to be a abomination.

 

In the face of inevitable death, one final act of spite for your would-be killers?

 

I dunno, that's all I got.

[EmissaryofLies]

Who would want to be a abomination.

 

A mage on his last leg.

 

An idiot. 

 

An extremist, illogical fool. 

 

 

Take your pick. 

[KainD]

A mage on his last leg.

 

An idiot. 

 

An extremist, illogical fool. 

 

 

Take your pick. 

 

Oh God.. So negative. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Oh God.. So negative. 

"Last leg" isn't all that judgmental. And really a mage who does it for any other reason might deserve it.

 

Edit: Though I'm not sure how much judgment Anders deserves, if that last bit was directed towards him. As far as he knew, Justice was entirely benevolent. Black and white in a grey world to a troubling degree, but until his corruption (which to the best of my knowledge is unprecedented in the lore) he wasn't truly evil. Hell, even after his corruption he still has something of a case for most of what he does. (Keyword: most.)

[Dean_the_Young]

In truth, I don't know that the Chantry or Templars truly believe spirits are good.  They certainly don't like Rhys studying spirits in Asunder and Lambert definitly thinks all spirits and demons are bad.

 

The difference to me seems to be more an idea of how the spirit relates to the person.  Faith obviously has no desire to control Wynne, which is why I have trouble labeling her an abomination. She has a link to the spirit in the fade, but she is in no way controlled or truly possessed by Faith.

 

The big question about Faith has to do with how it bonded with Wynn, if it did so in the classical sense. For Anders and, implicitly, most abominations, there's no real dividing line between the person and the spirit. For Wynn and Faith, I'm not sure it was ever really a union as such- the spirit really could have acted as an outside force, rather than as a possessor. Maybe. Who knows.

 

The other part, though, is the question of how would a Faith-abomination actually express itself if it wanted to? Abominations generally fixate on their aspect: rage is angry, Justice channeled Anders rightous anger/personal vengeance, Pride fueled Ulric's ambitions and ego. But what would 'faith' be expressed by- bolserting Wynn's already balanced faith in the virtues of benevolence and the status quo?

 

We don't really know much about Wynn beforehand to tell if there was ever a personality change. I personally suspect that 'faith' pretty much made Wynn a perma-idealist- that she wouldn't have been able to not have faith if she wanted to. But that's a non-falsifiable speculation.

 

 

 

Anders is an interesting question yes, but Gaider has hinted at their being mitigating circumstances for the drastic change in justince. Ander's taint, him being removed from the fade, etc.  I think a spirit has a much less intrusive coexistance with a mage typically then any demon does.  As we have seen, demons seek to control, most actual spirits we have seen  do not.

 

 

The actual spirits we have seen are (a) Faith, and ( Justice. The later of which did seek influence and control over Anders actions, to keep him striving forward to fulfill the aspect. Whether the spirit of Faith had influence over Wynn to make her fullfill that aspect is unclear: Wynn already seems to have been someone with exceptional amounts of faith, and thus not need to be influenced to fulfill the aspect.

 

We have an extremely limited sampling of spirits for possession, and a rather imbalanced one of demons: the only demonic abominations we've seen, after all, are by necessity the demons that wanted to become abominations. Demons that didn't want to, much like spirits that don't want to, are pretty much absent as a consequence.
 

 

I don't get into the Chantry bit on the relation to the maker, I subscribe to the way tevinter magisters classified them from their experiences in the fade.

 

 

I can't recall a significant difference between the Tevinter and Chantry classifications, besides that the Tevinter were more willing to make deals.

[sunnydxmen]

Only the weak go for a demon for help and usually always get them burned in the end.

[Lulupab]

Being merged with a spirit can be very interesting but I doubt the player can become an demonic abomination.

[Helios969]

Dean:  There's the Spirit of Valor who helps you in the Fade during the Harrowing.

 

I am sure it has been discussed before but I often wonder if Justice drove Anders or if Anders (Darkspawn taint aside) own experiences poisoned Justice, twisting him into Vengeance.  I tend to prefer the latter interpretation since I like the idea of human fallibility being the source of most worldly problems. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Dean:  There's the Spirit of Valor who helps you in the Fade during the Harrowing.

 

 

And we also saw a sloth demon who wasn't terribly interested in possession during the same as well, IIRC.

 

Of course, I was talking about how a spirit-merging abomination differs (in terms of if the spirit wants control of the host). Valor is never in that position.