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[Exaltation]

We were able to make deals with Demons before,would be nice to be able to be possessed by a Demon/Spirit,and others ain't necessarily need to know about it

[The Baconer]

There's more to interacting with spirits than possession.

[wcholcombe]

Somewhat. It's basically a distinction of beneficial and harmful spirits. However, the distinction is culturally and religiously Andastian:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

Lob, the only religious association is that the spirits have a connection to the Maker. The idea of demons and spirits and the negative positive associatioins predates Andraste even being alive, it was started by the Magisters exploring the fade.   Callistus the Fade Touched being the prominent lore source on this.

[wcholcombe]

They both are overly negative to the living world, its just someone are outright malevolent and others are too caught within their bailiwick to understand mortality.

 

There is nothing in Dragon as a "good spirit" its just that you have some that are more malevolent then others outright. Some try to foist the opinion that time within the living world or mortals themselves transfer negativity and change these beings from positive to negative, but in truth? Demons are Demons, and Spirits are just as bad. They are singular focus constructs after all, Just because a spirit is one of Wrath or Faith doesn't mean it won't go on killing spree's or possess anything in its sight.

 

Then you have this conception that spirits do not seek to posses mortals and do not try to devour their essence like demons do, That is more or less true but it still occurs, just for different reasoning. After all it appears most "spirits" Unlike demons do not possess the knowledge of how to possess, it seems once they gain that they actually go out and do it when the time to do presents it self, This was evident in Wynne.

 

Overall, It doesn't matter if you buy into them being of the immaterial or the Maker's first children, they are all bad news.

 

Its in essence similar to the Daedra and Aedra of TES.

 

You have "Benevolent" and "Malevolent" spirits but both view mortal as little more then either things of pity, amusement or what have you.

 

No real benefit to have from trucking with either.

 

We really don't have much real knowledge and experience with Spirits outside of Justice and Wynne,  some of the lore definitely speaks of the spirits being benevolent in that when exploring the fade, they kept demons away from the magister who was exploring the fade.

[wcholcombe]

No Grace didn't turn into an abomination she just went into an abomination mode. 

"In Act 3 during the quest Best Served Cold, she is seen with the renegade Templars, and will attempt to kill Hawke and the hostage for the death of Decimus, killing Ser Thrask in the process. It also appears she has become a pride abomination."

 

Not definitive, but I personally didn't think Grace was human anymore.

[wcholcombe]

Maybe we can become an abomination like Wynne if we become a Spirit Healer in Inquisition? I mean, I think the devs confirmed that we only get one specialization this time around, but they're more developed. 

See I have an issue in referring to Wynne as an abomination.  Sure she has a spiritual association with a fade spirit, but the classical example of an abomination is literally where there isn't anything human left, the demon/spirit has completely taken over and there is nothing of the human that remains.

[Nightdragon8]

Wynne isn't an abomination. By definition, an abomination is a mage possessed by a demon. She was possessed by a Spirit of Faith. 

I would honestly have to disagree and I would bet that the Templars wont see it that way as well.

 

I'm not saying Wynne and the Spirit that possessed her was "bad" or even for me count as an abomination, But I seriously don't think the Templars would see it that way.

 

Its one of those grey areas

[wcholcombe]

I would honestly have to disagree and I would bet that the Templars wont see it that way as well.

 

I'm not saying Wynne and the Spirit that possessed her was "bad" or even for me count as an abomination, But I seriously don't think the Templars would see it that way.

 

Its one of those grey areas

Well, the Templars never let something as trivial as the truth of their beliefs get in the way of killing a mage who dables with spirits

 

Thats a bit of a low blow by me though. Basically while I don't doubt the Templars would consider her an abomination it still doesn't fit the classical definition of Abomination in the DA universe.

[LobselVith8]

Lob, the only religious association is that the spirits have a connection to the Maker. The idea of demons and spirits and the negative positive associatioins predates Andraste even being alive, it was started by the Magisters exploring the fade.   Callistus the Fade Touched being the prominent lore source on this.

 

I'm not addressing the inception of the terms, I'm pointing out that in modern Thedas, there are cultural and religious connotations in the distinctions between Spirits and Demons. It's not simply from the religious discussions between Merrill and Anders, either. The codex for Spirits reads: "The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion. The Maker, however, was dissatisfied. Although the spirits were like Him in that they could manipulate the ether and create from it, they did not do so. They had no urge to create, and even when instructed to do so possessed no imagination to give their creations ingenuity or life."

 

The codex also addresses Demons, "As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

The Dalish, for example, clearly don't adhere to the religious connotations of the Andrastian faith regarding Spirits and Demons, since they follow the elven pantheon of the Creators, and view all spirits as dangerous.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm not addressing the inception of the terms, I'm pointing out that in modern Thedas, there are cultural and religious connotations in the distinctions between Spirits and Demons. It's not simply from the religious discussions between Merrill and Anders, either. The codex for Spirits reads: "The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion. The Maker, however, was dissatisfied. Although the spirits were like Him in that they could manipulate the ether and create from it, they did not do so. They had no urge to create, and even when instructed to do so possessed no imagination to give their creations ingenuity or life."

 

The codex also addresses Demons, "As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

The Dalish, for example, clearly don't adhere to the religious connotations of the Andrastian faith regarding Spirits and Demons, since they follow the elven pantheon of the Creators, and view all spirits as dangerous.

 

And Combe was clearly pointing out those notions predate Andraste and Andrastian belief.

 

So whom is to say if one influenced the other or not, Point being, The notion of the modern day predates Chantry or cult belief.

[wcholcombe]

I'm not addressing the inception of the terms, I'm pointing out that in modern Thedas, there are cultural and religious connotations in the distinctions between Spirits and Demons. It's not simply from the religious discussions between Merrill and Anders, either. The codex for Spirits reads: "The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion. The Maker, however, was dissatisfied. Although the spirits were like Him in that they could manipulate the ether and create from it, they did not do so. They had no urge to create, and even when instructed to do so possessed no imagination to give their creations ingenuity or life."

 

The codex also addresses Demons, "As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

The Dalish, for example, clearly don't adhere to the religious connotations of the Andrastian faith regarding Spirits and Demons, since they follow the elven pantheon of the Creators, and view all spirits as dangerous.

I get the dalish don't view it that way, but, the Tevinter Magisters were categorizing spirits or demons long before andrastianism came into being.  Spirit/demon is just a way of categorizing the beings that the Tevinter Magisters encountered in the fade.  Sure the chantry built it into their religion, but when you say, "Somewhat. It's basically a distinction of beneficial and harmful spirits. However, the distinction is culturally and religiously Andastian" you are wrong, the distinction blatantly predates andrastianism.  Just because the dalish have a different view doesn't make this classification system andrastian.

[Master Warder Z_]

I get the dalish don't view it that way, but, the Tevinter Magisters were categorizing spirits or demons long before andrastianism came into being.  Spirit/demon is just a way of categorizing the beings that the Tevinter Magisters encountered in the fade.  Sure the chantry built it into their religion, but when you say, "Somewhat. It's basically a distinction of beneficial and harmful spirits. However, the distinction is culturally and religiously Andastian" you are wrong, the distinction blatantly predates andrastianism.  Just because the dalish have a different view doesn't make this classification system andrastian.

 

Combe ._. I feel like we should form a social network sometimes we agree more oft then not.

[wcholcombe]

Combe ._. I feel like we should form a social network sometimes we agree more oft then not.

Except for when we don't.  Which isn't entirely rare at the moment.  Truth is I agree with Lob a lot as well, just our discussions don't parrallel. Of the posters I have any long experience with there is only one which I pretty much never agree with and he will not be named.

[LobselVith8]

I get the dalish don't view it that way, but, the Tevinter Magisters were categorizing spirits or demons long before andrastianism came into being.  Spirit/demon is just a way of categorizing the beings that the Tevinter Magisters encountered in the fade.  Sure the chantry built it into their religion, but when you say, "Somewhat. It's basically a distinction of beneficial and harmful spirits. However, the distinction is culturally and religiously Andastian" you are wrong, the distinction blatantly predates andrastianism.  Just because the dalish have a different view doesn't make this classification system andrastian.

 

It is in present day Thedas. Tevinter has followed the Imperial Chantry for centuries, and most of the human kingdoms in Thedas follow the Andrastian Chantry. The fact that there are cultures that don't necessarily share the viewpoint in categorizing groups of spirits as Spirits and Demons is the entire point, because their view is tied to the Andrastian faith in seeing the denizens of the Fade as the First Children of the Maker.

[Master Warder Z_]

Except for when we don't.  Which isn't entirely rare at the moment.  Truth is I agree with Lob a lot as well, just our discussions don't parrallel. Of the posters I have any long experience with there is only one which I pretty much never agree with and he will not be named.

 

He who shall not be named!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

For regarding the relationship between spirits and demons, I'm going to refer to Justice's explanation until proven otherwise. Him being a spirit makes him far more credible.

[wcholcombe]

It is in present day Thedas. Tevinter has followed the Imperial Chantry for centuries, and most of the human kingdoms in Thedas follow the Andrastian Chantry. The fact that there are cultures that don't necessarily share the viewpoint in categorizing groups of spirits as Spirits and Demons is the entire point, because their view is tied to the Andrastian faith in seeing the denizens of the Fade as the First Children of the Maker.

But see, neither Wynne or Rhyss(ok not certain Wynne doesn't DAO but I know neither she nor Rhys do in Asunder) in anyway bring in the religious aspects of spirits when discussing them and we could argue they are the two biggest experts on spirits and possession we have had longterm association with or exposure to.  They both present it purely from a technical magic point of view that aligns with the tevinter classification system. I would say that Zatharian probably has more experience with spirits, but we don't spend much time with him.  I wouldn't consider Anders an expert as he has never actually studied spirits, he just became possessed.

[LobselVith8]

But see, neither Wynne or Rhyss(ok not certain Wynne doesn't DAO but I know neither she nor Rhys do in Asunder) in anyway bring in the religious aspects of spirits when discussing them and we could argue they are the two biggest experts on spirits and possession we have had longterm association with or exposure to.  They both present it purely from a technical magic point of view that aligns with the tevinter classification system. I would say that Zatharian probably has more experience with spirits, but we don't spend much time with him.  I wouldn't consider Anders an expert as he has never actually studied spirits, he just became possessed.

 

Tevinter has followed a version of the Andrastian faith for centuries; I really don't see why you see it as something distinct when the Imperial Chantry follows the worship of the Maker, albeit with their own differences from the original Chantry of Andraste.

 

Also, Wynne and Rhys are both culturally Andrastian, and we know Wynne is religiously Andrastian in several of her conversations, including her encounter with the Urn of Sacred Ashes. While they don't outright invoke the religious connotations, the codex entries on Spirits and Demons make it clear that it's the context in how Spirits and Demons are viewed as two distinct groups.

 

I'm really not seeing your issue here. I'm not debating the origin of the terms, I'm addressing the plain fact in how the distinction is tied to religion in present day Thedas, which is supported by the codex entries that address this.

[wcholcombe]

Tevinter has followed a version of the Andrastian faith for centuries; I really don't see why you see it as something distinct when the Imperial Chantry follows the worship of the Maker, albeit with their own differences from the original Chantry of Andraste.

 

Also, Wynne and Rhys are both culturally Andrastian, and we know Wynne is religiously Andrastian in several of her conversations, including her encounter with the Urn of Sacred Ashes. While they don't outright invoke the religious connotations, the codex entries on Spirits and Demons make it clear that it's the context in how Spirits and Demons are viewed as two distinct groups.

 

I'm really not seeing your issue here. I'm not debating the origin of the terms, I'm addressing the plain fact in how the distinction is tied to religion in present day Thedas, which is supported by the codex entries that address this.

I guess it is just a difference in game experience.  I don't deny that the ignorant unwashed masses and such like Anders would completely associate it religiously, but I would think someone like Rhys who actually studies spirits of the fade would take a more clinical look on things.  Much as a Scientist who is also a christian-no not one of those christian science idiots- would believe in the bible, but when it comes to his actual field of study-say biology, would have a much more clinical approach.

 

Anyway the discussion is largely immaterial so there really isn't a great need to continue it.

[dragonflight288]

See I have an issue in referring to Wynne as an abomination.  Sure she has a spiritual association with a fade spirit, but the classical example of an abomination is literally where there isn't anything human left, the demon/spirit has completely taken over and there is nothing of the human that remains.

 

But according to the Chantry and the Templars, any mage who is possessed by a Fade Spirit immediately qualifies as an abomination. 

 

Personally I agree with you. 

[MrMrPendragon]

I never considered Wynne as an abomination.

After the discussion i had wih her about "if one retains one's humanity, then one is not an abomination" I was pretty much convinced that the mind falling prey to a demon is what makes someone an abomination, not the physical transformation to a gruesome monster wearing suprisingly stylish red robes.

[Lulupab]

Well I modded my game and in one of them Hawke had a spirit inside just like Anders. Everything aside, there is no doubt it absolutely looked cool and was powerful. Therefore I completely support the idea of such a thing. I am even content if I can mod it, I just need the animations to be in the game

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

^ Hawke has activated the Avatar State.

[Master Warder Z_]

^ Hawke has activated the Avatar State.

 

Which is just a cheap rip off of Rikuduo state.

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which is just a cheap rip off of Rikuduo state.

 

Avatar State existed first, so Rikudou is ripping it off.