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Alistair - To harden or not?.


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#101
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Well it works, I always felt sorta selfish. The fandom picks right up on that btw, I guess that's why the Cousland Origin has such a bad reputation. I wonder if the same people think it's selfish when the male Cousland puts himself on the throne marries Anora...propably not.  :rolleyes:

 

But is it selfish? I never see it that way for many reasons. Here is the way I see it:

 

1) putting alistair on the throne is not what he wants. He was tossed away as the bastard and neglected by everyone until eamon wants to grab for power by keeping it in the bloodlines. Keep in mind that eamon was the jerk who let that evil isolade manipulate him into tossing alistair aside. But now that it suits his needs, alistair must do his duty? But what duty is that when anora had been running the country because Cailan was not really ruler material himself? This is really all about Eamon. Don't kid yourself on that. Alistair even says if you tell him you are supporting anora and you want to run off with him that eamon would have a fit or something like that. So this never had anything to do with the country which was running fine for five years with anora doing with while cailan played at being king. It is about Eamon and his blood line BS and now that Alistair has use he expects alistair to do what he wants.

 

2) Alistair not only doesn't want to be king but he is not king material. Sure, they toss a few comments in there like he is compassionate and blah blah blah, but this doesn't dismiss that he didn't even want to lead in all the work we just did. He wanted to follow. He was happy to follow. Then at times he would get pissed at me for choices I made that he even seems to support at the time. Nevermind that he has been wholly shielded from the world living in the chantry. He's naive and too much of a good boy to make hard decisions and if you don't kill loghain he will even abandon his duty as a grey warden over it and risk letting a blight destroy everything. This is not kingly material. This is a man who would never really make a good king no matter how they try to sell it. They might toss in this hardening BS but it doesn't magically make him a leader, it just makes him cynical of anora. I finally realized that was the end goal of hardening. He only will want to throne because now he thinks anora is out for herself, which may be true to a degree, but she's been ruling for 5 years while Cailan played king.

 

3) Anora has been ruling so removing her from the throne would actually cause more chaos which she addresses though some might see that as a manipulation the fact is that it is actually true. In the middle of a blight, having a bastard son who knows nothing of being a king and happens to be a grey warden put on the throne in large part by the grey wardens just smacks of political maneuvering and would likely in reality (but this is not treated this way in the game because of game machinations) cause a civil war worse than what was supposedly taking place. Nobody knows him. He was put there by the grey wardens and he was a grey warden. The beloved queen (and she is beloved according to the game) is removed from the throne and will likely be killed if he is hardened. That shows making him king to be more selfish than letting her continue.

 

4) IF you are going to marry them then it's just another manipulation only now they are two chess pieces. It disregards that they would prefer to not marry. It's just straight out political maneuvering that doesn't even take into consideration what anyone would want. It is so heavy handed that it could abruptly end any romance you have with alistair which makes sense. I mean, really you are now having him marry the daughter of the man who he feels killed his father figure, Duncan - the daughter of the man who sent assassins after you. The daughter that he doesn't trust if he is hardened.

 

Yeah, I never feel like I'm being selfish. I feel like I'm the one who sees all the political maneuvering for what it is and hears what people's real motivations are despite how they justify it. Everyone really is out for themselves when you get to the landsmeet, and so you have to look at the motivations of everyone and see what makes sense the most. What I am certain of is that given that Alistair doesn't want to be king and didn't even want to lead as we gathered our armies and those two things alone say he should never be on the throne. What I am certain of is that Eamon has his own agenda and expects Alistair to bow to it even when he was horrible to him once Isolade, that ****** who didn't care that she just caused so much death in redcliffe for her own screwy reasons, demanded Alistair be gone because she was a jealous and paranoid shrew who could not see alistair was just an innocent child. Eamon's argument loses weight on that point alone. If he was so concerned about bloodlines, perhaps he should have considered that bastard or not, Alistair was still royal bloodline and should be protected rather than discarded so he could screw that shrew.


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#102
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So true starlitegirlx

 

I have made him King because I wanted a certain result ending. It really wasn't what he wanted and you can only do it with a harden AL. The best for the warden and AL is two wardens getting out of there after they kill the archdemon.



#103
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True. You have to harden AL if you want to be consort. There is a video hardened consort. I also this this a long time ago. I'll put the person's video and I'll try to find my notes for you. I haven't done that one in years.

 

Here is the video:

 

Thank you! This has been great help! ^_^


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#104
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So true starlitegirlx

 

I have made him King because I wanted a certain result ending. It really wasn't what he wanted and you can only do it with a harden AL. The best for the warden and AL is two wardens getting out of there after they kill the archdemon.

 

This is how I feel after playing the noble who wanted the wedding. I did it really because I wanted the wedding for the fun of it and it was fun to run a Cousland who after what happened to her family is now queen. But my favorite is a mage who runs off with him when it's over and he remains a grey warden knowing I protected him from having to become king.


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#105
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I am guessing the baby comes up because of what Eamon says before the landsmeet start. It is probably about the Theirin bloodline. With Alistair and Anora at the throne there would be no heir because she might be barren and even if she is not Alistair isn't in love with her. It is a marriage of convinence. With the Warden however there is love between them and they both yearn to have a family, atleast in my eyes. Both lost theirs. It actually makes sense, it just comes up abit fast and play to large a role. 


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#106
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I really don't like him being king, but now I feel at a loss with the comics/books "canon" presentation of him as king. Annoying, but whatever. This stuff sort of gets to me, because I don't know how well they're going to follow through other storylines anymore. I know if I pick him as king, that certain storyline will at least get some good treatment in the future.


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#107
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Well i think he only fits as king with a female warden, mostly because if you play her truly noble they will be popular with the people. In my eyes that is the most important atleast. How to rule in other fashions would not fit my playstyle. Maybe i am just abit goody two shoes. 


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#108
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I really don't like him being king, but now I feel at a loss with the comics/books "canon" presentation of him as king. Annoying, but whatever. This stuff sort of gets to me, because I don't know how well they're going to follow through other storylines anymore. I know if I pick him as king, that certain storyline will at least get some good treatment in the future.

They did a pretty good job of letting you import your DAO choices into DA2. I don't see any reason you couldn't set up your choices in the Keep.



#109
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They did a pretty good job of letting you import your DAO choices into DA2. I don't see any reason you couldn't set up your choices in the Keep.

 

Actually, I don't think DA2 did much of a job with anything from the previous game. It stood well on it's own story, mind you, but past choices and such? Didn't seem like much to me either way. Where I saw real development of DAO's characters is in the books and comics.


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#110
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I really don't like him being king, but now I feel at a loss with the comics/books "canon" presentation of him as king. Annoying, but whatever. This stuff sort of gets to me, because I don't know how well they're going to follow through other storylines anymore. I know if I pick him as king, that certain storyline will at least get some good treatment in the future.

 

But this game is this game. Look at how many people concerned themselves with the mass effect series only to feel it all went south in the end. Totally unexpected. If you play the game only because you concern yourself with the end then that really isn't any fun. If you play the game for itself and not concern yourself with the next game at least you will have fun in this game and follow what feels right for you here and now rather than trying to read the future. Fact is, we really cannot count on anything in the future with this story because they keep adding new things in. Frankly, that's sort of like changing all the rules as you go. It really feels like a cheap maneuver because what about those that don't read this stuff. Annoying is the perfect word so I just ignore what is annoying and do as I please. Remember, it's just a story and really, you are building your own story with your character. That is what role playing really is. Look at skyrim and TES and how beautifully that is done. You can do whatever you want and as long as you follow the main questline which is always set in stone, then the rest is irrelevant. To me, that is the only way to properly do an RPG. It should have never mattered who was king or queen. But they dragged it in and felt it made sense but all it does is confuse a lot of people and cause them to make decisions that kind of have zero to do with the greater scheme of things which is stopping the blight. That was the point of the game. We were there to stop the blight. That we ended up with all this other nonsense of king and queen is actually poor writing.

 

In the end, it seems to have taken over everything but in truth it was only that small section of the game. It's like having who is king is Orzamar take over the game and be some sort of deciding outcome of things in the future, but if that had been done, we would all be saying WTF? So they made Alistair a bastard and did it anyway. But really, it is no different. It doesn't even make sense yet it becomes the main point when again, we were stopping a blight only to get dragged into this royal nonsense, which is kind of how I think a lot of people felt during Orzamar only now because you can insert yourself into the situation and make Alistair king or yourself queen or chancellor or rule beside anora it's all very different.... which maybe that is the ultimate lesson we should be looking at. Maybe it's about power and what we do to take that power within our RP. Me? I get out of dodge with Alistair and live happily after ever. Others convince themselves that this or that is the best way or this one or that one is the best rule when really you are being used as a tool no differently than Orzamar did. Only in this case it's Eamon using us to his end and we use it as an opportunity for ourselves - to insert ourselves into certain roles but we are Wardens. That is who we started out as. Even if you hate being a warden (which you could leave at some point which is what the warden does) landing yourself into this political or royal role doesn't really change that. It's just a manipulation. In the end, none of it matters.



#111
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Actually, I don't think DA2 did much of a job with anything from the previous game. It stood well on it's own story, mind you, but past choices and such? Didn't seem like much to me either way. Where I saw real development of DAO's characters is in the books and comics.

 

For conversational purposes you get a mention but the only real thing is that if king, you see alistair. So that really shows nothing mattered. Sure, you get to see alistair as king, but what did it matter in the overall scheme of things. Even ten years later, which if I remember correctly, you meet him after being made champion I think. After you have already been in your estate and resolved the quinari issue. The third act I believe is when you meet him and so that's around seven years into the future and in that seven years what has evolved or happened? Things aren't looking great with Orlais. Well, when were they ever? Orlais was always that country there would likely be problems with and none of that even has a thing to do with how we played the game. So you are right here. They did nothing with the import except throw you a bone with Alistair appearing if made king and a few crappy dialogue references to things like his wife/mistress or perhaps a mention of a the male PC if played. Honestly, the only really great moment from an import is if you played awakening and really liked Nathaniel. Then his cameo is really nice but again, not really a storyline impact of consequence. Just cameos that make no difference in the scheme of things.



#112
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I am guessing the baby comes up because of what Eamon says before the landsmeet start. It is probably about the Theirin bloodline. With Alistair and Anora at the throne there would be no heir because she might be barren and even if she is not Alistair isn't in love with her. It is a marriage of convinence. With the Warden however there is love between them and they both yearn to have a family, atleast in my eyes. Both lost theirs. It actually makes sense, it just comes up abit fast and play to large a role. 

 

You have a point there. I didn't see anything saying Queen Anora had a child in any ending. It did say she was approaching 30 in the Return to Ostagar DLC. This was his uncle trying to get him to divorce her.



#113
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Actually, I don't think DA2 did much of a job with anything from the previous game. It stood well on it's own story, mind you, but past choices and such? Didn't seem like much to me either way. Where I saw real development of DAO's characters is in the books and comics.

They did a lot in the side quests and cameos. Did you do the side quests, or just play the core game?



#114
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You have a point there. I didn't see anything saying Queen Anora had a child in any ending. It did say she was approaching 30 in the Return to Ostagar DLC. This was his uncle trying to get him to divorce her.

 

His uncle meaning Eamon, the man who is obsessed with bloodlines despite it seemed that Cailan was not really king material and Anora was actually the one doing the ruling. Over time I've come to really dislike Eamon quite a bit especially since he ends up running things if you do not harden Alistair, which I suspect was his plan all along.



#115
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They did a lot in the side quests and cameos. Did you do the side quests, or just play the core game?

 

But nothing of consequence. That is the point I think streetmagic is making. For all the talk of how imports from previous games change things, BW is infamous for not really having much change at all. These cameos don't change the game in any meaningful way.



#116
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They did a lot in the side quests and cameos. Did you do the side quests, or just play the core game?

 

Zev will mention the warden, Leliana, Alistair and Nat will say something about you. The odd thing happens in the end where the seeker will say the warden and Hawk have disappeared.



#117
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Zev will mention the warden, Leliana, Alistair and Nat will say something about you. The odd thing happens in the end where the seeker will say the warden and Hawk have disappeared.

 

All of which is really kind of trivial game wise. Yes, they are cameos but they really have zero impact and are purely for amusement.


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#118
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His uncle meaning Eamon, the man who is obsessed with bloodlines despite it seemed that Cailan was not really king material and Anora was actually the one doing the ruling. Over time I've come to really dislike Eamon quite a bit especially since he ends up running things if you do not harden Alistair, which I suspect was his plan all along.

 

Yes that guy. The same Eamon who is not concern with the gene pool when he marries the extremely stupid. I never listen to him. A city elf may make Al king because they want better treatment for their people. Al is the only one that improves things for the Elf. A noble may want to marry him so that she runs the show. There is nothing wrong with that. She will do a better job than anyone there. A mage might say Al you and me need to get out of this place. This makes sense. He doesn't want to be King.



#119
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All of which is really kind of trivial game wise. Yes, they are cameos but they really have zero impact and are purely for amusement.

 

True. It did seem they wanted you to disappear.



#120
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Zev will mention the warden, Leliana, Alistair and Nat will say something about you. The odd thing happens in the end where the seeker will say the warden and Hawk have disappeared.

 

Bah, Zevran either suffers from memory loss or is delusional when you romanced him. He either does not act like he is in a romance with the Warden at all, OR he acts like the Warden did the Ultimate Sacrifice and died. Alistair calls his Cousland queen "balls and chains" or whatever the saying is. In addition to how DA2 melted Zev's (and to a lesser degree, Alistair's) face made me wish they had not even bothered with the cameos.


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#121
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They did a lot in the side quests and cameos. Did you do the side quests, or just play the core game?

 

I've played both games inside out. Not really much to care for, imo. Better than ME2's "email updates" though.

 

But like ME2, I don't knock it. Both DA2 and ME2 stand in their own right. I just don't think importing matters all that much.



#122
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Bah, Zevran either suffers from memory loss or is delusional when you romanced him. He either does not act like he is in a romance with the Warden at all, OR he acts like the Warden did the Ultimate Sacrifice and died. Alistair calls his Cousland queen "balls and chains" or whatever the saying is. In addition to how DA2 melted Zev's (and to a lesser degree, Alistair's) face made me wish they had not even bothered with the cameos.

 

Thank you. I was really pissed to be called the ball and chain. Where's the love? I was really nice to him. Screw the writers for that comment. I deserve better. And no I didn't think it was funny at all. I loved that character the most at the time and thought they had a great relationship. And now I'm a ball and chain? Pfft


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#123
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I've played both games inside out. Not really much to care for, imo. Better than ME2's "email updates" though.

 

But like ME2, I don't knock it. Both DA2 and ME2 stand in their own right. I just don't think importing matters all that much.

 

Importing is a joke. That's why I say play this game the way you want and don't care about what you think might be coming. I think that way you won't be let down and you will really enjoy each game so much more for what it is. BW lets us down on imports. I respect their efforts and even that they can do this, but it always falls short.



#124
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Thank you. I was really pissed to be called the ball and chain. Where's the love? I was really nice to him. Screw the writers for that comment. I deserve better. And no I didn't think it was funny at all. I loved that character the most at the time and thought they had a great relationship. And now I'm a ball and chain? Pfft

 

I forgot about that. What a bunch of morons? 



#125
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Yes that guy. The same Eamon who is not concern with the gene pool when he marries the extremely stupid. I never listen to him. A city elf may make Al king because they want better treatment for their people. Al is the only one that improves things for the Elf. A noble may want to marry him so that she runs the show. There is nothing wrong with that. She will do a better job than anyone there. A mage might say Al you and me need to get out of this place. This makes sense. He doesn't want to be King.

 

Yes because it really is all about your character and whatever feels most in character and befitting that run. Of course, it is still manipulations except getting out of dodge where you both leave as the wardens you came as. That's my whole point. You now use it for your own benefit. We insert ourselves into the situation based on what we want, which I think is why I like leaving with my mage the most. I like playing a mage the most and so that is the favorite class. I like leaving because I feel like I just don't want to be involved with any of it. It's not like I'm voting for someone. It's me actually controlling outcomes by manipulating people into things they don't want to do so I can get what I want out of it. That never feels right to me.