100 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

The asari are no better or worse than any other species.

[Mcfly616]

So....besides the glaring issue of the Dark Energy plot (the 'we're saving you from Dark Energy, even though we spread it everywhere' contradiction that probably would've been worked out had they not dropped the idea).....what else is the problem with it? I guess I'm missing something. It's bad because the Reapers perceive themselves to be preserving life?

[FlyingSquirrel]

This isn't a good argument. You're basically saying "here are some individuals who don't exhibit these traits". Thefore their society can be cleared of all charges? Your reply is just as much a false generalization as what you're assuming Steelcan said.

 

Not to mention that your point would imply that anyone who belongs to an imperialist self-centered and culturally arrogant society can't possibly be altruistic, collaborative and culturally sensitive. Which would be even worse I think.

 

Well, that wasn't what I was *trying* to say. What I'm getting at is that if we judge asari culture and society by the behavior of the individuals who comprise it, they don't seem especially more likely to display these traits than any other species, at least on average. They show a mix of attitudes and practices just like most other species do.

 

And I don't get where the "imperialist" part comes from regardless of how you look at it. I'm having trouble thinking of a single asari who *is* an imperialist, at least in the sense of thinking that asari are entitled to conquer other nations or species. Even the xenophobic asari merchant on Illium seems like more of an isolationist than an imperialist. If anything, the asari seem to have a reputation as being the ones pressing for more negotiation and compromise.

[CrutchCricket]

I didn't say that the original endings of Mass Effect 3 were good. I just said that the Dark Energy plot was worse. What makes the DE plot worse is that it would have given the Reapers an actual problem they were trying to fix (heat death of the universe). Destroy the Reapers, and you condemn the galaxy to an early demise. 

 

That isn't the case with the shipped endings where you can at least destroy the Reapers without dooming the universe. 

 

I don't think that's worse because a) that's a more credible problem and b) that's a consequence that actually follows, instead of being tacked on just because we can't think of a downside.

 

I can't say I'm thrilled with the idea. But I don't think it's worse.

 

It's bad because the Reapers perceive themselves to be preserving life?

 

No it's bad because the story tries to tell you they're right. I don't care what they perceive. If I'm forced to agree with even the root of their perception, then we have a problem.

[Mcfly616]

I don't think that's worse because a) that's a more credible problem and b) that's a consequence that actually follows, instead of being tacked on just because we can't think of a downside.
 
I can't say I'm thrilled with the idea. But I don't think it's worse.
 



 
No it's bad because the story tries to tell you they're right. I don't care what they perceive. If I'm forced to agree with even the root of their perception, then we have a problem.

the story tells you they're 'right'? About Dark Energy? Did you want them to surprise you at the end and say 'Just Kidding!" ?


Or did you just want the Independence Day plot and ending? Aliens come to kill us because 'reasons', and we end them in a fiery 'splosion fest. 'Merica. The End.

[CrutchCricket]

Well, that wasn't what I was *trying* to say. What I'm getting at is that if we judge asari culture and society by the behavior of the individuals who comprise it, they don't seem especially more likely to display these traits than any other species, at least on average. They show a mix of attitudes and practices just like most other species do.

 

And I don't get where the "imperialist" part comes from regardless of how you look at it. I'm having trouble thinking of a single asari who *is* an imperialist, at least in the sense of thinking that asari are entitled to conquer other nations or species. Even the xenophobic asari merchant on Illium seems like more of an isolationist than an imperialist. If anything, the asari seem to have a reputation as being the ones pressing for more negotiation and compromise.

 

The individuals who comprise it (that we see) are a poor sample of the population by any analysis you choose to make. On the other hand we have ample proof that their leadership makes decisions that can be classified as imperialist, self-centered etc. And since the asari leadership isn't fascist, the decision they make would appear to have the implicit agreement of their people as the people are the ones who put them in charge.

 

It's why it makes sense to say "America is culturally-insensitive" but not "All Americans are culturally insensitive". The former was said about asari. You're arguing against the latter (which technically makes that a strawman argument).

 

Disclaimer: I know little about American politics and care even less. The above statements were only examples intended to illustrate the difference by drawing real-world parallels. I chose them because they seem stereotypically true.

 

To your second point, look up what "imperialism" means. It's not all about conquest. In fact in modern use, it's not at all about conquest, at least not military conquest. It's about political and economic domination, something the asari do very, very well.

[von uber]

No problem with the asari being imperialist. The humans are probably working as hard as they can to do the same.

[CrutchCricket]

the story tells you they're 'right'? About Dark Energy? Did you want them to surprise you at the end and say 'Just Kidding!" ?


Or did you just want the Independence Day plot and ending? Aliens come to kill us because 'reasons', and we end them in a fiery 'splosion fest. 'Merica. The End.

 

Because the only time villains can be wrong is in cheesy action movies...

 

What was the point of this reply?

 

No problem with the asari being imperialist. The humans are probably working as hard as they can to do the same.

 

Except they get called out on it. The asari never do.

[von uber]

Because they are the dominant power. Look at Russia getting called out for the crimea and compare it with us actions achieved through soft and hard power. It's what they do from a position of strength, like the uk did from the 18th- early 20th century.

[Han Shot First]

 

I don't think that's worse because a) that's a more credible problem and that's a consequence that actually follows, instead of being tacked on just because we can't think of a downside.

 

I can't say I'm thrilled with the idea. But I don't think it's worse.

 

 

 

Are you a Control fan?

 

That might explain why we differ on the Dark Energy plot. The DE plot would have made joining with the Reapers the intended ideal ending (sort of how Synthesis is pushed on the player in the shipped game), with Destroy the equivalent of Refuse.

 

The shipped endings might be deeply flawed but at least Destroy can be justified, in that the Catalyst is not actually solving any problem. The problem it is trying to solve is solely the result of flawed programming from its creators. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The Asari, once again, are the most technologically advanced and wealthiest race in the galaxy. They've been around the longest, and the rest of the galaxy had better be glad that Aethyta wasn't listened to. 

Oh noes, they go for political and economic domination. Why shouldn't they? 

[Mcfly616]

Because the only time villains can be wrong is in cheesy action movies...

What was the point of this reply?

the point is that your point is "it's bad because the Reapers are 'right'" about a cosmic disaster.....is pretty lame reasoning. You just wanted big evil machines that were dead wrong about everything.

I guess what I'm saying is that a villain that has certain reasons for doing things, and then at the end of the game it's revealed that "oops...our calculations were off, we were doing this for no reason", is pretty damn stupid.

[Han Shot First]

No problem with the asari being imperialist. The humans are probably working as hard as they can to do the same.

 

They aren't imperalist in the traditional sense of the word.

 

They are big on soft power though. 

[Steelcan]

The Asari, once again, are the most technologically advanced and wealthiest race in the galaxy. They've been around the longest, and the rest of the galaxy had better be glad that Aethyta wasn't listened to. 

Oh noes, they go for political and economic domination. Why shouldn't they? 

 

the aryan race has the proudest and strongest history, most advanced technology, and is biologically superior to all other races why shouldn't they go for domination?

 

 

Yes I'm Godwinning

[themikefest]

The Asari, once again, are the most technologically advanced and wealthiest race in the galaxy. They've been around the longest, and the rest of the galaxy had better be glad that Aethyta wasn't listened to. 

Oh noes, they go for political and economic domination. Why shouldn't they? 

How advanced and wealthy would they be if they never had that artifact?

[von uber]

How advanced and wealthy would they be if they never had that artifact?

 

How stuck in Sol would humanity be if it wasn't for Mars?

[Mcfly616]

Thanks, Protheans....

[Steelcan]

How stuck in Sol would humanity be if it wasn't for Mars?

 

Humanity turned over the prothean tech they found, and on Eden Prime they freely offered Council help with the beacon

[von uber]

Humanity turned over the prothean tech they found, and on Eden Prime they freely offered Council help with the beacon

 

That's got nothing to do with how advanced they would be without Mars.

[themikefest]

How stuck in Sol would humanity be if it wasn't for Mars?

At least they wouldn't have to put up with a bunch of Aliens especially the Asari.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

At least they wouldn't have to put up with a bunch of Aliens especially the Asari.

[CronoDragoon]

the aryan race has the proudest and strongest history, most advanced technology, and is biologically superior to all other races why shouldn't they go for domination?

 

 

Yes I'm Godwinning

 

 

 

Oh noes, they go for political and economic domination. Why shouldn't they?

 

You're doin it wrong, Steelcan.

[CrutchCricket]

Are you a Control fan?

 

That might explain why we differ on the Dark Energy plot. The DE plot would have made joining with the Reapers the intended ideal ending (sort of how Synthesis is pushed on the player in the shipped game), with Destroy the equivalent of Refuse.

 

The shipped endings might be deeply flawed but at least Destroy can be justified, in that the Catalyst is not actually solving any problem. The problem it is trying to solve is solely the result of flawed programming from its creators. 

 

I'm a fan of the consequences, or possibilities of Control. I don't think it really fits the protagonist and story we've been shaping. Though I don't see how or why the current endings should influence our perception of dark energy. That's a type of retrospective bias. Prior to the endings I never would've dreamed of controlling the Reapers. Knowing that's a possibility now obviously changes the way you think about things.

 

Control can actually be played the same way, which is another reason I'm fine with it. Nowhere in the discussion of Control does Shepard indicate he's buying the holokid's Kool-aid. You can easily play along the lines of "yeah yeah, **** your nonsense, but I'll take your toys. Could come in handy."

 

the point is that your point is "it's bad because the Reapers are 'right'" about a cosmic disaster.....is pretty lame reasoning. You just wanted big evil machines that were dead wrong about everything.

I guess what I'm saying is that a villain that has certain reasons for doing things, and then at the end of the game it's revealed that "oops...our calculations were off, we were doing this for no reason", is pretty damn stupid.

 

Gee I'm glad you know more about what I wanted than I did. Thanks for enlightening me.

 

Except you're the one dealing in absolutes. What's right for them may not be right for us. That's the basis of all conflict.

 

That's got nothing to do with how advanced they would be without Mars.

 

It has everything to do with asari hypocrisy and the fact that they need to keep everyone else down in order to be on top.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No. Dark Energy ending. No. Just no. One super reaper vacuuming dark energy smog in the galaxy created by everyone else because humans are specially suited for doing that. Wait. What's the message? Humanity sucks!

 

Humanity struck the mother lode on Mars with Prothean ships and the Mars Archives. Let's not forget that. We would have been so stuck in the system without that. Without the Mars archives, when humanity discovered the Mass Relays, there were people who thought they should be destroyed. They were afraid of what we might let in. And without the Mars Archives humanity might have destroyed the mass relay.... and adios muchachos.

 

Of course the chances of the reapers finding Voyager floating around in deep space would be about the same as finding a particular needle on Earth.

[Han Shot First]

No. Dark Energy ending. No. Just no. One super reaper vacuuming dark energy smog in the galaxy created by everyone else because humans are specially suited for doing that. Wait. What's the message? Humanity sucks!

 

 

There is also that. The DE plot would have doubled down on the humanity is special ego-stroking. The cycles were all a big trial and error until they could find the perfect species to solve this Dark Energy problem, and of course that perfect species was going to be humanity.