446 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

Oh sure its all that. Until playing fast and loose with claiming people express ism's gets the person fired by upper management and human resources and the zero tolerance/ zero context policies. Or gets folks ostracized by the non informed heinous see the accusation without the reason and decides they know all they need to know.

 

It's a funny thing...most people that get in trouble with HR for expressing isms are  generally people who are being gross. Instead of blaming whomever complained about you, take a harder look at what your behaviour was in the first place. A lot of people allow a great number of microaggressions before complaining to the HR department because it causes conflict and could lead to feeling uncomfortable or being pushed out of the work force. So, no...it's not just these awful people making boohoo claims. Sometimes, it is the bad behaviour and sometimes people do need to be accountable for it.

 

It's usually stuff like this:

 

"I only was making a rape joke." "I only patted her on the bum once" "I only was making fun of the food on the Chinese takeout menu using a funny voice" 

[LPPrince]

"I only was making a rape joke." "I only patted her on the bum once" "I only was making fun of the food on the Chinese takeout menu using a funny voice" 

 

Okaaay, this is getting a little far from the original topic, right folks?

 

Can we dial it back a little?

[Topsider]

The lack of women soldiers never bothered me. IMO this game would be classified as "medieval", and in medieval times women were meant to be the "housewife" whereas men were soldiers and laborers. The only race in Dragon Age that I would think had women soldiers would be the dwarves, and maybe the Dalish. :3

 

There was a lack of women soldiers in Dragon Age? Watch the battle of Ostagar again - many women were fighting on the front line (not just archers or priests)

 

If generic soldiers wear a helmet and standard armor (no breast slots) then how are we supposed to recognize them? 

 

Inquisition forces have an "open face" helmet style, but that doesn't help when you're seeing them from a distance or in large groups. People argued for gender neutral armor. This is the downside (or upside since it cuts model numbers in half)

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh and The Wehrmacht officially allowed women into active combat duties in 1945.

 

Letting them out of the reservist and support roles of the Flugmeldedienst/Nachrichten/Stabs.

 

@__@ I know about world war two.

[Maria Caliban]

Oh sure its all that. Until playing fast and loose with claiming people express ism's gets the person fired by upper management and human resources and the zero tolerance/ zero context policies. Or gets folks ostracized by the non informed who see the accusation without the reason and decides they know all they need to know.

If you work at a place with zero tolerance policy, you should probably take the time to understand it. It's not like the phrase 'zero tolerance' is unambiguous; it means that there's a rigorous and strict set of behaviors you need to follow.

Honestly, previous to Gen-X entering the workplace, the idea that work was a place to 'goof off' and relax in was unheard of.

[Mes]

 

Fantasy having real elements to it can add to the experience and take away from the experience, depending on what is taken from real scenarios/places/people, etc etc.

 

 

Okay, two points regarding this:

 

1) Why do "real elements" in a fantasy game have to be overwhelmingly something sexist or misogynistic regarding women. Why can't "real elements" be something else, like players needing to use the loo or men needing to shave their faces. The fact that realism is used as an excuse to perpetuate the mistreatment or underrepresentation of an entire gender is what bothers me.

 

2) My original point a couple posts up was that I'm not so sure many of these people who use "realism" as an argument really have that great of an understanding of history, or even current social events. They sort of say "realism" but then have no idea what they're talking about. So I figure it's best not to use that argument at all. 

[Allan Schumacher]

There was a lack of women soldiers in Dragon Age? Watch the battle of Ostagar again - many women were fighting on the front line (not just archers or priests)

 

If generic soldiers wear a helmet and standard armor (no breast slots) then how are we supposed to recognize them? 

 

Inquisition forces have an "open face" helmet style, but that doesn't help when you're seeing them from a distance or in large groups. People argued for gender neutral armor. This is the downside (or upside since it cuts model numbers in half)

 

Just as a reference, I took a peek at a video here (Evidently it's a german one haha).  And yup they are there. 

 

 

As for the gender neutral armor, I was actually thinking about that myself.  When I saw the pictures posted, I wasn't sure if it was definitively the best example because I'm not sure I can definitively state the sex of any of the people wearing the armor.  Especially in the concept art.

 

It got me thinking that a way to facilitate better representation may simply be the inclusion of women sound sets in a lot of cases.  Take someone in full plate, and have them use a woman's voice, that'd establish that it's a woman in that armor.  I wonder if stuff like that would help a lot, while still allowing us the possibility of leveraging less assets when necessary.

[Grieving Natashina]

Okay, two points regarding this:

 

1) Why do "real elements" in a fantasy game have to be overwhelmingly something sexist or misogynistic regarding women. Why can't "real elements" be something else, like players needing to use the loo or men needing to shave their faces. The fact that realism is used as an excuse to perpetuate the mistreatment or underrepresentation of an entire gender is what bothers me.

 

2) My original point a couple posts up was that I'm not so sure many of these people who use "realism" as an argument really have that great of an understanding of history, or even current social events. They sort of say "realism" but then have no idea what they're talking about. So I figure it's best not to use that argument at all. 

 

You nailed all of my feelings about this.

 

Come give me a hug, you!

 

[LPPrince]

Okay, two points regarding this:

 

1) Why do "real elements" in a fantasy game have to be overwhelmingly something sexist or misogynistic regarding women. Why can't "real elements" be something else, like players needing to use the loo or men needing to shave their faces. The fact that realism is used as an excuse to perpetuate the mistreatment or underrepresentation of an entire gender is what bothers me.

 

2) My original point a couple posts up was that I'm not so sure many of these people who use "realism" as an argument really have that great of an understanding of history, or even current social events. They sort of say "realism" but then have no idea what they're talking about. So I figure it's best not to use that argument at all. 

 

I did say that it can take away from the experience.

 

Its all a matter of perspective anyhow. Whether it adds or takes away to an experience, how it makes someone feel, the myriads of different opinions that are different from any others due to minute details.

 

A million different people with a million different ideas. Thats why we have forums. To talk about those million different ideas.

 

Poor devs. 

[Mes]

It got me thinking that a way to facilitate better representation may simply be the inclusion of women sound sets in a lot of cases.  Take someone in full plate, and have them use a woman's voice, that'd establish that it's a woman in that armor.  I wonder if stuff like that would help a lot, while still allowing us the possibility of leveraging less assets when necessary.

 

I like that idea a lot, actually! 

[Mes]

Honestly, Bioware should just apply the same armor to all of the characters. It's kind of silly seeing plate armor suddenly adjust to my female characters.

 

Hmm I'm imagining a really loud suctioning sound as the upper plate slowly morphs into boobage. 

 

I think leaving helmets off and/or using more female voice actors would be the best and easiest way to be more inclusive. Rather than silly boobie armor or hips that go way off to the side to differentiate.  

[Althix]

Honestly, Bioware should just apply the same armor to all of the characters. It's kind of silly seeing plate armor suddenly adjust to my female characters.

but they did that already in DAO

[Darth Krytie]

but they did that already in DAO

[Maria Caliban]

but they did that already in DAO

They did it in DA II.

[Althix]

snip

oh sh...

 

well this is sad really. but hey boobs are important right?

 

on my plate armor.

and on my gambeson that comes before that very plate very armor.

 

and of course smiths just love to make those.

[Maria Caliban]

Still not as bad as Dalish leather armor.

[Darth Krytie]

Still not as bad as Dalish leather armor.

 

Who needs to have their midriff covered during battle?

[Grieving Natashina]

They did it in DA II.

Thanks, I was looking for this.  While the complaints against the female armor from Origins do have merit, DA2 shows that they did make some large improvements in that area.

 

And thank goodness for the PC version and player mods.  I've got one that removes all the boob cups.   They still have cleavage, it just doesn't look painfully encased in some sort of metal apple.

[Mes]

Who needs to have their midriff covered during battle?

 

Heh. I guess they didn't think we needed "realism" in that particular sense! Love that picking and choosing business.

[Mes]

Thanks, I was looking for this.  While the complaints against the female armor from Origins do have merit, DA2 shows that they did make some large improvements in that area.

 

And thank goodness for the PC version and player mods.  I've got one that removes all the boob cups.   They still have cleavage, it just doesn't look painfully encased in some sort of metal apple.

 

Mm. Not much improvement in terms of standing, though. My hips hurt looking at the middle picture!

 

Must say I do like those outfits.

[Grieving Natashina]

Mm. Not much improvement in terms of standing, though. My hips hurt looking at the middle picture!

True, but that would be pretty nitpicky of us to go over.  Plus, I feel confident that the devs have been working on making the female idle and running animation a little less odd this time.

[O_OotherSide]

 

It's sexist in the fact that people assume male is the default.  It's not really conscious sexism and on the scale of "sexist thoughts and behaviours" it's probably not as explicitly bad as other forms, but I do agree it has problematic elements.  I don't think it's a coincidence that men and women (in my experience) assume that the lack of any obvious sex cues causes people to assume "man."

 

While yes, it's an issue of past experience, an interesting question to me is whether or not our societal experiences are biased in a particular way to manufacture this perspective.

I don't see how its sexist to assume that the human in platemail is a male when in reality and most fiction its much much more likely to be a man. If I say babysitter do you assume it is a girl?

 

Anways, how much of a problem was this in DA2 because it seems most examples are from the first game. I recall a lot of female warrors in DA2.

[Grieving Natashina]

Heh. I guess they didn't think we needed "realism" in that particular sense! Love that picking and choosing business.

Isn't it grand?

 

I'm pretty ill, so I'm heading to bed early.  I'll catch you guys later.

[Althix]

assume that the lack of any obvious sex cues causes people to assume "man."

Spoiler

 

riiiiight. but here is the thing. if we are talking about armor and weapons in general i see no practical use for armor that have curves on a chest. i mean i can catch a mace on these curves, when on armor without curves mace could just glance off or power of impact could be lower.

 

i mean even if i would be a woman i would care more about my survivability in combat instead of how i will look during that combat when other human beings want to kill me. and additional zones where weapon of my opponent can inflict pressure which can result in my pain, loss of balace and other life or death factors, are not helping at all.

 

one more thing - each weapon or armor from a stick and rock to modern assault rifles and vests are made with several principles in mind. Such as: utility, practicality and biomechanics of human body.

 

Yeah sure waisted armor with curves that indicate secondary sexual characteristics will just scream: hey i am girl, not a boy! Look how womanly i am!

 

Nice isn't it? Who cares about broken ribs, ruptured organs and internal bleedings right?

 

I mean sexual equality is good and all, but please let us not neglect a common sense.