446 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

"Based on" means that although there are some things that are similar, there are also many other things that are very different. If Dragon Age doesn't follow along with medieval Europe's lack of magic or lack of mythical creatures, why should it follow along with medieval Europe's gender roles?

I'm not saying it should, part of the setting is that women are part of the military, which is why I posted

 

"Sure, why not?  It fits the lore"

 

 

I merely took issue with "vaguely medieval" there is nothing vague about it, its a medieval setting with some twists

[Darth Krytie]

"Based on" means that although there are some things that are similar, there are also many other things that are very different. If Dragon Age doesn't follow along with medieval Europe's lack of magic or lack of mythical creatures, why should it follow along with medieval Europe's gender roles?

 

 

Seriously, this argument is basically only used about gender roles and sexuality. I've NEVER seen it applied elsewhere on any other deviance from the way people perceive Medieval times to be like, which are laughingly inaccurate half the time anyhow.

[Nefla]

 

vaguely....

 

 

the knights in shining armor, feudal government, dragons, orc wannabes, a massive Church, witches, etc...

And yet people have modern ideals, live long healthy lives, have a culture closer to modern day than medieval, everyone can read, no one just dies of dysentery, people aren't dragged out into the square and executed for entertainment, they have indoor lighting, their clothes look like a fantasy version of modern, you can go up to a priest and be like "your god sucks" and not be executed etc... 

 

Similarities: Monarchy/nobles, armor, no electricity (instead magic seems to fill this role in certain aspects)

 

Magic, orcs, dragons, etc...did not exist in medieval days.  

[O_OotherSide]

As for harmless, I actually am not sure.  Is it surprising that a girl that acts in masculine ways tends to be less noteworthy than a boy that acts in feminine ways?  If you have people actively NOT pursuing something that they want to do because of these perceptions, I don't consider that a good thing.

 

If someone really wants to be a power lifter, but just by observation concludes that it's not something that a woman does, then I don't think it's harmless.

Good point and its not something I can comment on, since I don't do anything out side the norm for men. Still how does one picture a gender netural nurse .

[Steelcan]

And yet people have modern ideals, live long healthy lives, have a culture closer to modern day than medieval, everyone can read, no one just dies of dysentery, people aren't dragged out into the square and executed for entertainment, they have indoor lighting, their clothes look like a fantasy version of modern, you can go up to a priest and be like "your god sucks" and not be executed etc... 

 

Similarities: Monarchy/nobles, armor, no electricity (instead magic seems to fill this role in certain aspects)

 

Magic, orcs, dragons, etc...did not exist in medieval days.  

 

Which is why it is a medieval fantasy setting with twists

 

and I can pick apart the rest of your post such as the bit about "modern ideals" if you'd like, but it'd be too off topic for this thread

[Darth Krytie]

And yet people have modern ideals, live long healthy lives, have a culture closer to modern day than medieval, everyone can read, no one just dies of dysentery, people aren't dragged out into the square and executed for entertainment, they have indoor lighting, their clothes look like a fantasy version of modern, you can go up to a priest and be like "your god sucks" and not be executed etc... 

 

Similarities: Monarchy/nobles, armor, no electricity (instead magic seems to fill this role in certain aspects)

 

Magic, orcs, dragons, etc...did not exist in medieval days.  

 

 

All of this, plus: the number of books Hawke owns. The fact that poor people have brightly coloured fabrics. The fact that there's not literally crap in the streets, even the better parts of the town.  No rats or other vermin.  I could go on.

[KaiserShep]

The sex cards were the icing on the failcake for me. I played The Witcher for a whole hour once and haaaaated it. The boring fixed protagonist and terrible combat would have driven me off even without the cards. I will not be buying any CD Projeckt Red games in the future unless they make something very different, and that Cyberpunk trailer was not reassuring on that score. I suspect they are just fine with this, as I am obviously not their target demographic.

 

Meanwhile, I have played DA2 seven times and am planning to go back for an eighth.

 

Yeah, that Cyerpunk 2077 teaser was sending a pretty weird message. By the time the gratuitous shot got to the zomg-cyborg arms, I was pretty underwhelmed. I'm still very curious as to what it's about and I'd like to think that the teaser is a very poor reflection of the actual game, but as far as trailers go, it's not very good.

[Aimi]

All of this, plus: the number of books Hawke owns. The fact that poor people have brightly coloured fabrics. The fact that there's not literally crap in the streets, even the better parts of the town.  No rats or other vermin.  I could go on.

The biggest thing for me is the highly monetized economy.

[Nefla]

A truly realistic take would be quite humorous. I can picture the complaints now...

 

"WTF Bioware my character gets to level 3 and dies from the Black Death?! Super lame!"

Yeah lol. You never hear anyone complain that their character isn't covered in boils from the filth they live in, or that realistically they would never be able to afford a suit of armor if they saved their whole life, their pants don't have a **** stained buttflap but they should realistically if we're going to be medieval. Also no complaints that you can be an atheist because that should get you killed in our "realistic" medieval society. Not to mention physical things like there is no way we would be able to kill a dragon without like 100 soldiers and some siege weaponry.

[Steelcan]

These sort of things are why Dragon Age is not a Medieval sim, its a medieval fantasy with numerous (frankly expected adjustments) in order to make it work better as a video game setting

 

THIS DOES NOT change the fact that it is medieval fantasy in the same vein as so many other series that get the details wrong, but are nevertheless clearly medieval

[LPPrince]

Is this thread even about the original topic anymore?

[n7stormrunner]

Good point and its not something I can comment on, since I don't do anything out side the norm for men. Still how does one picture a gender netural nurse .

 

 

a trap... wait no thats basically the same as picturing a flat chested women. a reverse trap? no thats the same as picturing a rather feminine man... I don't think there is a way 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, that Cyerpunk 2077 teaser was sending a pretty weird message. By the time the gratuitous shot got to the zomg-cyborg arms, I was pretty underwhelmed. I'm still very curious as to what it's about and I'd like to think that the teaser is a very poor reflection of the actual game, but as far as trailers go, it's not very good.

Agreed. As I said earlier in this thread, the only reason I'm really going to keep an eye on it is because I like the Cyberpunk genre. 

[Stelae]

Why should it not?

First, because it's not the way actual day-to-day gender dynamics were, especially in the Lower and Middle Class.  Modern historians of medieval Europe are finding that there's actually not a lot that women didn't do, when it came down to it, including being rulers and doctors and lawyers and warriors. Centuries of ignoring women's history have given people the impression that women didn't do anything that wasn't biologically based, but actually looking at the evidence when you don't make those assumptions is turning up some very nifty stuff indeed.  What you think of as "realism" is really just a lot of rapidly-crumbling assumptions based on a bunch of dead white guys who monopolised the field for far too long.

 

Also -- lore reasons -- a lot of the sexism of the day was based on a patriarchal religious system where a woman was responsible for the fall of man and humanity.  But Thedas has Christianity-as-founded-by-Joan-of-Arc.  Matriarchal, woman-redeems-humanity.  So if there's going to be that sort of morally based sexism, it's more likely to say "men are emotional, jealous, betraying bastards who can't be trusted with anything important."  I'm pretty glad the writers have given that a wide berth, to be frank. 

 

You want realism?  Because class was at at least as important as gender, for starters, and class isn't even an issue in DA.  Yes, you have nobles and peasants and an underclass and merchant bourgeoisie in the big cities and so on, but the actual day-to-day impact of class on the life of a medieval person is far greater than that of gender.  A noble could cut a peasant down pretty much in cold blood as long as they had the blood price for that person's liege.  A peasant could be told who to marry, where they were going to live, what job they would do, what crops they would grow, who they would fight and where and so on. 

 

It'd make for a really different game though ...

[Nefla]

Which is why it is a medieval fantasy setting with twists

 

and I can pick apart the rest of your post such as the bit about "modern ideals" if you'd like, but it'd be too off topic for this thread

You can be openly homosexual, you can cheat on your wife without her brother having the right to duel you to the death, women can rule a country alone, join the army, be a knight, own property, you can be atheist if you want, you can be openly seditious to the authorities with no consequences, an individual can earn their way into nobility/wealth/a better life, etc...seriously the only things that are the same are the monarchy still being in power (which it is in some countries today) and the knights in shining armor. If you changed the looks of everything to be sci-fi or something and kept the society/culture/people the same no one would go "hey this sounds like a medieval society!"

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Is this thread even about the original topic anymore?

Not really, no. But I guess this became the new gender discussion thread. 

[Nefla]

Not really, no. But I guess this became the new gender discussion thread. 

As always.

[Killdren88]

Just got back from my evening classes. Not to get off topic..but... Oh my! I've been noticed by the great and powerful Developer Allan!

 

[Aimi]

Is this thread even about the original topic anymore?

It was, as recently as the previous page.

[Steelcan]

You can be openly homosexual, you can cheat on your wife without her brother having the right to duel you to the death, women can rule a country alone, join the army, be a knight, own property, you can be atheist if you want, you can be openly seditious to the authorities with no consequences, an individual can earn their way into nobility/wealth/a better life, etc...seriously the only things that are the same are the monarchy still being in power (which it is in some countries today) and the knights in shining armor. If you changed the looks of everything to be sci-fi or something and kept the society/culture/people the same no one would go "hey this sounds like a medieval society!"

 

1.  Was rare, but it happened, most European nations contrary to popular belief allowed femalre succession in the event of no valid male heirs

2.  We see that knighthood is a relatively exclusive club, there are plenty of soldiers, but not very many knights

3.  Is a result of being a player character, there is plenty of mention of sedition being met with imprisonment

4.  Also rare but it did happen, titles and lands could be purchases, furthermore in the case of say Hawke, his family was nobility, just poor

 

 

By changing the setting you'd also lose important game elements, when people think dragons, medieval setting are the first thing to come to mind, or the importance of religion, and the tensions between religious groups

[Mes]

Wow. These last few posts about the "medieval, hurr durr" argument have been great fun to read. Honestly, how can anyone still use that as some sort of justification for underrepresentation of women?

 

You people have painted a very bleak picture indeed. I would actually be VERY interested in a properly medieval-based game like you guys have described.

[Steelcan]

Wow. These last few posts about the "medieval, hurr durr" argument have been great fun to read. Honestly, how can anyone still use that as some sort of justification for underrepresentation of women?

 

You people have painted a very bleak picture indeed. I would actually be VERY interested in a properly medieval-based game like you guys have described.

 

I said from the very first post that I have zero issues with female soldiers because it is a part of this setting, which is medieval fantasy with a twist

 

apparently the latter half of my statement is something that other people disagree with

[Stelae]

Good point and its not something I can comment on, since I don't do anything out side the norm for men. Still how does one picture a gender netural nurse .

It's a problem. But gender-neutral actually reflects reality pretty well, for a nurse.

 

You start with a figure in loose-but-practical scrubs, with their hair covered, carrying an assortment of medical equipment.  Scrubs are unisex these days, hair is short or tied back and has a surgical cap on it, regardless of gender, and the equipment is ass-kickingly cool and complicated, but on wheels if it is too heavy to lug around, so encumbrance is not a factor.  Jewelry is kept to a minimum, piercings are covered, shoes are covered-in, flat and sturdy ... um ... they work in a hospital or care facility ...

 

Making a gender-neutral ANY Thing means concentrating on what makes them a Thing in the first place, I suppose.