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[Allan Schumacher]

The thing is, much like the muscle curiass, I've becoming increasingly disinclined to just assume that our understanding of history is without bias itself.  How many people see a gladiator in a movie fighting with that and don't blink an eye, even though it's not actually practical to wear that?

 

I mean, people see Braveheart and assume Prima Noctis was a common thing, because hey lords could do what they want and it's fun to imagine them being all dastardly.  How much of how we think history was is the way it actually was?

 

Unfortunately it's not really verifiable and what people decided to record is all we'll have to go one.

[Steelcan]

The thing is, much like the muscle curiass, I've becoming increasingly disinclined to just assume that our understanding of history is without bias itself.

 

I mean, people see Braveheart and assume Prima Noctis was a common thing, because hey Lords could do what they want.  How much of how we think history was is the way it actually was?

 

Unfortunately it's not really verifiable and what people decided to record is all we'll have to go one.

Interesting fact about Braveheart, it was set before the invention of the Kilt, by several centuries

[The Hierophant]

For the Inquisition sure. I'm not big on sausage fests but the male and female soldiers having sexy time with one another, getting preggers then asking for paid maternity leave would be annoying though. Gotta save up sovereigns for my giant gold statue, and brothel excursions.

[n7stormrunner]

The thing is, much like the muscle curiass, I've becoming increasingly disinclined to just assume that our understanding of history is without bias itself.  How many people see a gladiator in a movie fighting with that and don't blink an eye, even though it's not actually practical to wear that?

 

I mean, people see Braveheart and assume Prima Noctis was a common thing, because hey lords could do what they want and it's fun to imagine them being all dastardly.  How much of how we think history was is the way it actually was?

 

Unfortunately it's not really verifiable and what people decided to record is all we'll have to go one.

 

 

this may be the wisest post on this subject this forum will ever see.

[Steelcan]

In order to swing this back on topic

 

 

We know that Orlesian chevaliars have a particularly nasty reputation, Loghain mentions seeing them beating farmers to death, there's the story of Aveline, and iirc there is a man in Denerim's market that mentions that a chevaliar raped his sister and so they left, or something along those lines.

 

 

Given this, and given DA's involvement of women in the military, is this something that should be examined in Inquisition? I'd also be interested if there are female chevaliars

[Aimi]

The thing is, much like the muscle curiass, I've becoming increasingly disinclined to just assume that our understanding of history is without bias itself.  How many people see a gladiator in a movie fighting with that and don't blink an eye, even though it's not actually practical to wear that?
 
I mean, people see Braveheart and assume Prima Noctis was a common thing, because hey lords could do what they want and it's fun to imagine them being all dastardly.  How much of how we think history was is the way it actually was?
 
Unfortunately it's not really verifiable and what people decided to record is all we'll have to go one.

Historians refer to this understanding as something called the "linguistic turn". It started out as an acknowledgment that the words used to describe something impart perspective and/or bias in and of themselves, and that there is no such thing as a completely neutral description of any thing in any language. Now, however, the linguistic turn has become shorthand for a more postmodern interpretation of history, whereby "how it actually was" (wie es eigentlich gewesen, in the Historicist words of the German historian Leopold von Ranke) is seen as unobtainable, even if by attempting to avoid outright factual errors an academic will sort of inch toward it.

I'm probably over-interpreting what you were talking about, which seems more like a general observation that popular understandings of history are usually wrong (which has a great deal of truth to it as well), but, well, there it is.

[n7stormrunner]

In order to swing this back on topic

 

 

We know that Orlesian chevaliars have a particularly nasty reputation, Loghain mentions seeing them beating farmers to death, there's the story of Aveline, and iirc there is a man in Denerim's market that mentions that a chevaliar raped his sister and so they left, or something along those lines.

 

 

Given this, and given DA's involvement of women in the military, is this something that should be examined in Inquisition? I'd also be interested if there are female chevaliars

 

 

probably very few, we may run into one, and I will bet she not be one of the nasty ones.

[Steelcan]

probably very few, we may run into one, and I will bet she not be one of the nasty ones.

 

I think it'd be pretty interesting to run across some female chevaliars and see how they view their organization that has such a rotten reputation

[Stelae]

The thing is, much like the muscle curiass, I've becoming increasingly disinclined to just assume that our understanding of history is without bias itself. 

 

[kersnip] How much of how we think history was is the way it actually was?

 

Unfortunately it's not really verifiable and what people decided to record is all we'll have to go one.

Tell it to the forensic anthropologists, baby .  Fab discovery of the week: by examining the dentine in the London Mass Plague Grave they have found promising evidence that the 1348 plague was not spread by fleas, but was one of the airborne ones.  So all that stuff about rats and filth and whatall -- still true, but not the whole story.  Female skeletons turning up in Viking warrior graves, treatises by women doctors like Abbess Hildegarde clearly based on field work; we're chipping away at the monolithic male past.  Hopefully in time we can find enough that people won't swallow the traditional view hook, line and sinker.   Perhaps we can get to something a bit more like the truth.

 

But yeah; the recorders were usually male, what they thought was important was usually male, so people looking at women's history have to be a lot more lucky, and inventive. But it's more verifiable than you think, especially with the technology we are bringing to bear.

[n7stormrunner]

I think it'd be pretty interesting to run across some female chevaliars and see how they view their organization that has such a rotten reputation

 

if my experience with games is any indication, she ether be young and idealistic and think it's all a pack of lies, or older and very jaded about the whole thing possible with a story of a run in with one of the nastier ones more likely then not as the victim but possible the relative of one likely a sister. if a brother he will have been killed if sister probably not.   

[Allan Schumacher]

Tell it to the forensic anthropologists, baby .  Fab discovery of the week: by examining the dentine in the London Mass Plague Grave they have found promising evidence that the 1348 plague was not spread by fleas, but was one of the airborne ones.  So all that stuff about rats and filth and whatall -- still true, but not the whole story.  Female skeletons turning up in Viking warrior graves, treatises by women doctors like Abbess Hildegarde clearly based on field work; we're chipping away at the monolithic male past.  Hopefully in time we can find enough that people won't swallow the traditional view hook, line and sinker.   Perhaps we can get to something a bit more like the truth.

 

But yeah; the recorders were usually male, what they thought was important was usually male, so people looking at women's history have to be a lot more lucky, and inventive. But it's more verifiable than you think, especially with the technology we are bringing to bear.

 

Interesting and thanks for sharing.  And I'm glad to see that new angles can help us determine this sort of stuff and challenge perspectives.

 

I suppose I should clarify that I'm not aware of it being verifiable at this time.  But I know that I assumed a lot of things were true (like kilts!) simply because I saw them in media and decided "Yeah that makes sense to me" (for who knows what reason...) and didn't question it.

 

 

if my experience with games is any indication, she ether be young and idealistic and think it's all a pack of lies, or older and very jaded about the whole thing possible with a story of a run in with one of the nastier ones more likely then not as the victim but possible the relative of one likely a sister. if a brother he will have been killed if sister probably not. 

 

It'd be interesting to see the perspective of someone from the otherside, that acknowledges that they did awful things in response to the even more awful things that Fereldans did to them.  The justifications for atrocities is an interesting thing to examine, IMO.

[Steelcan]

The "traditional narrative" that you mentioned is indeed an issue, the common perception of medieval life is often wildly inaccurate, particularly about the norse and greek(Byzantine/Roman) cultures at this time

[Sekou]

I went to the Bioware forums and an anthropology class broke out.

;-)

[Cainhurst Crow]

Tell it to the forensic anthropologists, baby .  Fab discovery of the week: by examining the dentine in the London Mass Plague Grave they have found promising evidence that the 1348 plague was not spread by fleas, but was one of the airborne ones.  So all that stuff about rats and filth and whatall -- still true, but not the whole story.  Female skeletons turning up in Viking warrior graves, treatises by women doctors like Abbess Hildegarde clearly based on field work; we're chipping away at the monolithic male past.  Hopefully in time we can find enough that people won't swallow the traditional view hook, line and sinker.   Perhaps we can get to something a bit more like the truth.
 
But yeah; the recorders were usually male, what they thought was important was usually male, so people looking at women's history have to be a lot more lucky, and inventive. But it's more verifiable than you think, especially with the technology we are bringing to bear.

Women being taught to read or write was a big deal back then, wouldn't be that surprising if a lot of information back then was lost due to this sort of strict restriction.

Can't imagine the poor or the desperate caring about gender all that much though, they had enough to worry about already with just not getting killed by bandits or disease.

I'd like to learn more about this Abbess Hildegarde person though, was she around the after math period of the black plague or much later? I would figure after a major society culling event like the plague, restrictions on who could or couldn't do things would have been a lot more lax, given the shortage of people available to fill those jobs.

[laudable11]

"It's about the budget". Thats it. "Rendering more character models cost more". Ok.

I get tired of hearing that. 

Next game make most of the characters female. That way males can play second fiddle for a change.

[Aimi]

I'd like to learn more about this Abbess Hildegarde person though, was she around the after math period of the black plague or much later? I would figure after a major society culling event like the plague, restrictions on who could or couldn't do things would have been a lot more lax, given the shortage of people available to fill those jobs.

Hildegard von Bingen was a figure of the twelfth-century renaissance, predating the so-called Black Death by nearly two hundred years.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Hildegard von Bingen was a figure of the twelfth-century renaissance, predating the so-called Black Death by nearly two hundred years.

That's even more intriguing, and awesome.

EDIT: She saw visions...a lot of visions. and voices telling her to write down everything...oh boy.

It's probably the modern day coloring what was considered acceptable back in "the day", as it were, but hearing that, all I can think of is the movie a beautiful mind.

[Darth Krytie]

Nice try but you're way off base there, never been fired or reprimanded and I've never been forced to attend any sort of bullshit tolerance courses until one of my co-workers fucked up. I keep my head down, I don't socialize, and I make sure to keep my mouth shut, cause folks like you, presumably, would report a dissenting opinion as a verbal assault if you could.

 

snip

 

This is incredibly off topic, but if you truly desire to get into it, you can PM me.

 

Back on topic:

I think a lot of what happens is people take what's true for the nobility and apply it top down. Now, the nobility had a lot more disparity between gendered roles than the poor. Everyone worked the farm or what not when you were poor. Else, you wouldn't eat.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I blame the greeks, a lot of the philosophies they employed ended up carrying over into the medieval day, for good or for bad. At least where the nobility and religiously in power were concerned.

[Zered]

Haha I love it how I got the thread to go bonkers.  I feel like such a troll 

 

Thedas is really nothing like Medieval Europe. Especially when it comes to attitudes to women. (And thank goodness for that.)

 

 

 

Anyways I think this is the reason why I will disagree with a vast majority of you guys. I studied history at the local university. I like my fantasy when it is set in a believable world, most likely a high/late western medieval type. IIn such a setting there is no place for social justice or equality. And that is not bad or good thing, that is just how it was.

[Allan Schumacher]

This is incredibly off topic, but if you truly desire to get into it, you can PM me.

 

Back on topic:

I think a lot of what happens is people take what's true for the nobility and apply it top down. Now, the nobility had a lot more disparity between gendered roles than the poor. Everyone worked the farm or what not when you were poor. Else, you wouldn't eat.

 

Thank you.  I removed the original full post because I saw it as a ticking bomb.  If you wish to discuss the situation further, PM is a significantly better place to discuss that.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

By the way those soldiers in your screenshots could well be women, what are you expecting them to be wearing boob armour?

[O_OotherSide]

"It's about the budget". Thats it. "Rendering more character models cost more". Ok.

I get tired of hearing that. 

Next game make most of the characters female. That way males can play second fiddle for a change.

Making their biggest market second fiddle, good idea :-/

[O_OotherSide]

By the way those soldiers in your screenshots could well be women, what are you expecting them to be wearing boob armour?

Then he would complain about the boob armour.

[Han Yolo]

As far as I recall Dragon Age 2 had quite a lot generic female NPCs. About every buch of thugs I slaughtered had some gals in it and there were many female city guards as well. Only thing that bugged me was the lack of ladies within the ranks of the Tal Vashoth and the Carta but I blame that on female dwarven and qunari models not existing in the whole game.