446 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

There is where philosophies of playing video games differs. I know myself and others don't use video games to escape real world problems, as such a dependency can form a emotional instability and near psychological addiction to those outlets for relief. I can certainly understand the temptation to do so, but I feel its good to have a barrier of separation, at least emotionally, from what goes on in the game world and what you feel in the real world. The two can meet and intersect, but its not healthy for them to intersect to the point where one mentally associates a character as a surrogate fo themselves, and that what is done to one is meant as a direct action against the other.

 

As touched on by an earlier poster, an advantage of a fantasy world is we can explore the themes using fantasy races, rather than closer to real world analogues, as it separates some of the potentially volatile elements.

 

Sometimes we deal with similar elements that don't really have a real world analogue (mages, for example), and also elements that are a bit more comparable (elves IMO).  I'm sure some still find it uncomfortable, but hopefully the separation helps a bit because I do think that games can be a medium to explore these types of themes in a meaningful and interesting way.

[Allan Schumacher]

Hmmm. What exactly were they asking for? A graphic depiction of rape?

 

I ask only because both the DA and Mass Effect series have alluded to rape. In Mass Effect Jack was the victim of it, and there is also a male prisoner where you first recruit Jack who implies it happened to him. In one of the comics a couple Batarians also try to rape Liara. Jacob's loyalty mission also contains numerous references to it. In the DA series Leliana is a rape victim, and in DA:O it is implied that is what Vaughn was up to when he abducts elven women during the City Elf origin.

 

There was no lack of mention of it in either series, so I'm not sure exactly what those fans would be complaining about. 

 

In any case I'm glad there were no graphic depictions of it, nor is it necessary.

 

No, not that it's graphic.  Just the fairly standard "I want to see more elements that make me uncomfortable" types of posts.  These threads invariably come up all the time (across more than just BioWare games), and tends to be pretty consistent in what they want.

 

I just tried chiming into the thread with my example and there was some (not all) resistance to it because it didn't fit particular assumptions over whom is being oppressed and whom is being victimized.  Often it's still framed as "I want to overcome my oppressors" but I think there's still perspective concerns that aren't fully appreciated.  In that it tends to come across as "I don't typically suffer from this, but I want to put my character in a position where they suffer from this within the confines of how I imagine this suffering plays out, and the potential responses my character can make to get retribution."  It's often framed under the idea of being mature, although I find it's "mature" in the sense that "A mature person can understand what is happening is fantasy" as opposed to "this is a mature examination of the actions that are occurring."

[Fredward]

There is where philosophies of playing video games differs. I know myself and others don't use video games to escape real world problems, as such a dependency can form a emotional instability and near psychological addiction to those outlets for relief. I can certainly understand the temptation to do so, but I feel its good to have a barrier of separation, at least emotionally, from what goes on in the game world and what you feel in the real world. The two can meet and intersect, but its not healthy for them to intersect to the point where one mentally associates a character as a surrogate fo themselves, and that what is done to one is meant as a direct action against the other.

 

I agree with this, to a degree. Although I don't think it's quite that severe. I just think some people like to use games to just forget about RL problems every once in a while. For some its reading, meditating, exercising. All of these can be bad when taken to the extreme.

 

Personally I don't mind when games (or other mediums) want to take on real life issues, if they do it well they can explore themes in a way that the real world (thankfully) rarely does. They can make you think. See the world from a different perspective. Bioware doesn't even address these weighty issues directly and yet we're having a discussion about it anyway. I don't begrudge people their (healthy) escapist tendencies but neither would I want to see any medium reduced to such a state that it cannot convey anything meaningful for fear it might bring up someone's personal cross.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I just have seen people get consumed by their avatars, or worse yet, begin to make value and moral judgements against others based on how they play a game. The more you can have control of your character, the worse I've seen folks delve into their characters perspectives for irl and meta gaming decision making, with traditional role playing having the most danger of this. Most folks aren't nearly at this level, but there are a few who end up taking things way too personally, asee it a lot with greifers both online and in writing rpgs.

 

I mostly agree though, as long as folks can maintain self control and a healthy mindset, theres not a too severe problem to be found. Some people play games for a certain type of escapism, others to live out another life, some do both, some do neither and view int in similar terms as reading a book or watching a movie. Personal philosophies and perspectives differ, and that's a good thing imo.

[Althix]

Hmm... you know couple of years ago there has been some kind of movement around games. Point of that movement was (and maybe still is), that video games inspire violence. However from my point of view it's actually our live that inspipre violence in video games.

 

And i really don't understand that desire of player base to bring such things as raping to a world of a video game. Seriously i just don't. Just like i don't understand desire to have as much as possible LI in a games. I have nothing against it, but i really don't understand this notion.

 

So i am reading all this, when people asking to add this element or that element from a real life to the video game and come on. We already have slavery, torturing, oppressions, betrayals all that stuff. These are helping us to sink into the world. But ah... raping? seriously?

 

You know i am all hands for having characters of different color skins and sexual orientations, first is part of education in Soviet Union and second is an experience by living in more... open minded euro societies. I mean it's a part of our live since... forever i guess. But.

 

There must be a limit which is allowed and which is not. Because it's not only not healthy, and also i don't remember when rating 18+ actually stopped younger player base to play these games. Be it raping of a woman or a man, i can't see any reasonable argument to have that in a video game. I don't and i don't understand people who want this.

 

I mean example of a Templar who is about to rape a mage-girl after making her tranquil, disgusting enough.

[Mes]

Hmmm I have to apologize in advance... I've responded to a few posts below but overall it's quite off-topic. Maker forgive me. I will endeavor to be better. 

 

heh, but certain games are overwhelmingly played by men, and others played by women. The question is what's the male to female ratio for Bioware games? I actually think the 80% manshep stat is fairly accurate (Mass Effect 2). 

 

80% of people choosing to play as a male Shepard doesn't mean 80% of the players are males. For goodness' sake I play male Shepard more often than female, too.

 

I generally get that from Bioware, with the odd exceptions like "We didn't want to design female aliens so uhhh, salarian/ krogan/Qunari females are rare and never show their faces, yeah thats it."

 

Ugh god don't remind me. My favorite dev is the one who said something along the lines of "TROLOLOL I don't know how to create a female krogan... add lipstick or something?? HURR DURR LOLOL."  That guy was really special. Part of a youtube video where they talk about creating Garrus I think.

 

That makes some sense I suppose. Just one of those cave man instincts we seem to have trouble evolving from. "Uhhg! Me Protect! Oogabooga! Me smash!"

 

Mmm I'd argue it's more to do with our current screwed up society than anything related to evolution or our ancestors. 

 

That's not a cave man instinct, quite the opposite in fact. It's actually closer to cave man instincts to have no problems with hurting women then it is to want to protect them.

Cave man instincts is taking a rock and bashing a women in the head so she stops making noise/trying to get away.

 

Okay this post makes me extremely uncomfortable. What proof do you have that cavemen beat and raped their women? Sounds like a really perverse assumption to me. I read an article recently.. can't recall what period of humanity it was, but anyway it was long ago, I'd say caveman time. The question was, how did they get ensure that small families didn't interbreed? The answer was that a female of age would travel to a different family group, and if she was accepted by the eldest female, she would then be able to integrate and breed. However the overwhelming assumption, without having any of the facts - and this was even written in history books and taught to young children - was that a random male would appear from a different group, kidnap, and rape the nearest female.

 

Just... no. Our society was not built on rape, and to perpetuate this myth is a little disgusting. 

 

Oiiiii. 

 

The biggest concern I have is that when people say this, they typically only mean a specific type of injustice.

 

For instance, almost any thread that says they want more mature themes tends to ask for the same things: various isms, rape, torture, and so forth.  I once put forth that I think it'd be interesting if there was a situation where a male character undergoes the threat of rape (or even actual rape) in a particular situation, by an explicitly gay aggressor.  As such, if the character was a woman the situation would be avoided.

 

 

I would totally be on board with this. Rape and other injustices are, let's face it, almost always against women (in the media... not in real life) - and people even have the audacity to try to rationalize it or excuse it. Something like rape is humiliating, frightening, and horribly damaging physically and emotionally. But a man raping a woman has been romanticized in the media to the point where a lot of people think it's supposed to be kind of sexy, which it isn't. But if you turn the tables around and present a situation where something like this happens to a man, it sort of helps to startle people into the realization that it's a horrible thing and maybe we should stop bombarding people with images of women (or any human beings) constantly being on the receiving end. One recent example that stands out to me was from the last episode of the Walking Dead - I won't spoil it for anyone, but it was absolutely shocking because it wasn't, for once, against a woman.

[Steelcan]

As far as the maturity of the story goes, I'd define maturity as showing the world how it is and expecting the player to handle it.

 

We clearly don't need graphic depictions of rape or extreme forms of torture/execution, at a certain point it just gets over the top, but acknowledging that these things exist and not shying away from it is something I can get behind.

 

In essence, rape and torture need to exist, but we don't need to see it on screen

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I just have seen people get consumed by their avatars, or worse yet, begin to make value and moral judgements against others based on how they play a game. The more you can have control of your character, the worse I've seen folks delve into their characters perspectives for irl and meta gaming decision making, with traditional role playing having the most danger of this. Most folks aren't nearly at this level, but there are a few who end up taking things way too personally, asee it a lot with greifers both online and in writing rpgs.

 

I mostly agree though, as long as folks can maintain self control and a healthy mindset, theres not a too severe problem to be found. Some people play games for a certain type of escapism, others to live out another life, some do both, some do neither and view int in similar terms as reading a book or watching a movie. Personal philosophies and perspectives differ, and that's a good thing imo.

I can kind of see what you're saying here. Since I've been posting here I've at times been weirded out by people who have a level of faith in in game religions, especially the Chantry, that would almost make me feel like it's their actual religion. People overly invest, it's true. What I don't understand is how making this about real world issues is going to make it BETTER. To me, it seems it could invariably make it WORSE. If you think people make judgments about others for wanting to lock up mages, what do you think they're going to think about the "should women be allowed in the templars" and "should we criminalize homosexuality" choices? If anything, it seems like leaving these moral quandaries as an imaginary group that can be appropriately shaded with moral grayness actually offers a lot more opportunity for middle ground.

 

But I also think a lot of people just don't understand that video games, like Bioware's games, are one of the only mediums out there offering an experience for minority groups that doesn't obsess over their difference and how it will undeniably shape their life experience. If a woman watches a movie about a woman in power, it will almost definitely be about how difficult her gender made it for her to get there and maintain power. If a homosexual watches a movie about another homosexual, which is a rare occurrence to exist at all, then chances are the movie will entirely be about how powerless their sexuality makes them against bigotry and abuse. As a gay person myself, I've literally never seen a movie about a typical hero that was gay. No fantasy warriors, or superheroes, or sci-fi fighters, nothing. Maybe some exist somewhere, but they're certainly not mainstream enough for me to have ever personally come across one.

 

So, yes, it's refreshing to have an experience where you can play someone of your gender, or sexuality, or race and not have to have it constantly tossed back at you as an insult. There's a large demographic that gets this freedom literally everywhere they go, but some of us can get it almost nowhere else. That doesn't mean we're going to sequester ourselves away from reality and live only in the world of Thedas as played out in our own minds and TV screens. It's just a nice break from every other form of media constantly reminding us that throughout history and for the foreseeable future people like us have had to and will have to deal with this crap. It's also a nice reminder that things are finally getting to a point where some people can even IMAGINE a world where these things aren't our defining qualities and aren't afraid to subtly suggest that maybe they shouldn't be an issue at all. 

[Althix]

In essence, rape and torture need to exist

you know i think it would be wise to rephrase this somehow.

[David Gaider]

This thread is getting waaaay off topic. If there's nothing to discuss about the original subject, it'll be closed down.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I think you actually addressed the OP's concerns around page 5, so yeah.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Equally represented doesn't mean there needs to be a 50/50 split in statistics.  

 

But that's pretty much exactly what it means, though you need context for what is displaying equal representation. For example:" Qunari and Dwarfs were equally represented in Mud Wrestling 850, but the dwarfs won due to their experience with nug wrangling." 

 

This is a true statement if there were equal numbers, or so close to equal there's little point quibbling about it. Had there been 50 qunari but only 10 dwarfs you wouldn't shouldn't say there was equal representation of the two races.

 

Lore, skill descriptions and stuff like the CC statement tell us a lot of things that aren't reflected or backed up in game, and it'd be nice if that were corrected at some point.

 

Anyway, it's the job of a certain circle of fans to pick at dubious terminology. In GW2 people kicked up a fuss at the word 'outmanned' being used to inform World vs World pvp when one side was vastly outnumbered by another. Outmanned having a different meaning to outnumbered, if a credible dictionary is consulted. The GW2 devs eventually conceded and changed it. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I wonder if there are any games that have equal representation like this. Elders scrolls games are generally seem to be quite equal, is there anything else? 

 

I guess there are also allot of MMO's that have this. 

[thats1evildude]

[quote name="Mes" post="16356172" timestamp=

But a man raping a woman has been romanticized in the media to the point where a lot of people think it's supposed to be kind of sexy, which it isn't. But if you turn the tables around and present a situation where something like this happens to a man, it sort of helps to startle people into the realization that it's a horrible thing and maybe we should stop bombarding people with images of women (or any human beings) constantly being on the receiving end. One recent example that stands out to me was from the last episode of the Walking Dead - I won't spoil it for anyone, but it was absolutely shocking because it wasn't, for once, against a woman.[/quote]

I don't think the media has romanticized rape; I can't think of any modern works that have sympathetic characters who have committed rape. Rapists are generally portrayed as villains, except in really black comedic works when anything and everything is on the table. (And even then, men tend to be the targets, not women.)

That said, some people get off on the idea of rape. And they want to see rape in video games so they can act out their creepy rape fantasies. It's as simple as that.

[Mes]

I wonder if there are any games that have equal representation like this. Elders scrolls games are generally seem to be quite equal, is there anything else? 

 

I guess there are also allot of MMO's that have this. 

 

Hmm good question. I am actually not sure. One thing that keeps popping into my head is ME1's extremely obnoxious, broken record, female bandit (or whatever) voice screaming "I WILL DESTROY YOU!!!" in every single darn warehouse. I wonder if they were more equal in terms of background (and human) characters.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I wonder if there are any games that have equal representation like this. Elders scrolls games are generally seem to be quite equal, is there anything else? 

 

I guess there are also allot of MMO's that have this. 

 

It'd be interesting to look at, but I don't necessarily think absolute equal representation for everything and everyone (gender, orientation, race, etc...) is required...except, perhaps, that games which claim equal representation should maybe try to back it up a bit more, or change such claims to, eg, 'equal ability'.

Unequal representation can be a good source of story or basis for lore, after all. The White Chantry only having women in the upper echelons of the priesthood; Tevinter going against that and making a man their Divine. The lack of women in the old dwarven army; the origin of the Silent Sisters and female dwarfs finally being able to join the army. And so on.

[Maria Caliban]

This thread is getting waaaay off topic. If there's nothing to discuss about the original subject, it'll be closed down.

Please do.

[Grieving Natashina]

Please do.

Seconded.  If folks want to talk about women in DA and in games in general, there should be a new thread made for it.

[Steelcan]

Seconded.  If folks want to talk about women in DA and in games in general, there should be a new thread made for it.

thirded

[Stelae]

Women being taught to read or write was a big deal back then, wouldn't be that surprising if a lot of information back then was lost due to this sort of strict restriction.

Can't imagine the poor or the desperate caring about gender all that much though, they had enough to worry about already with just not getting killed by bandits or disease.

I'd like to learn more about this Abbess Hildegarde person though, was she around the after math period of the black plague or much later? I would figure after a major society culling event like the plague, restrictions on who could or couldn't do things would have been a lot more lax, given the shortage of people available to fill those jobs.

Anyone being taught to write was a big deal; male or female.  It was considered as specialist a skill as, say, programming is today.  They had a word for writers; clericis, and 90% of people went to a public notary if they needed anything written. Cristine de Pisan actually being able to write is a big deal because a lot of nobles couldn't write more than their own name; they had staff for the actual scribbling. 

 

But if you looks at what was written; surveys, tax records and the like, you can see ordinary women doing pretty much whatever ordinary men did.  You just have to understand that "farmer's wife" actually means "lives with her husband on the farm, sowing and reaping and tending animals."  A farmer's wife is a farmer.  A merchant's wife buys and sells things and takes care of shops, and warehouses and the business, especially while her husband is off getting the next shipment of goods from Ghent or wherever.  A merchant's wife is a merchant.  Miller's wives ground flour and kept the mill running.  They were millers.  And so on.  And if a man went off to war, his wife had two choices; make sure he had a home/business/farm to come back to, or pack her bags and act as part of the auxiliary to the army.  And you'd better believe camp-followers knew how to defend themselves. ETA: they also fought.  They were also targets. 

 

The information we have hasn't been looked at like that because of the assumptions that post-Enlightenment historians made about gender roles.  Women's letter collections and receipt books were examined only to see if there was anything interesting about their male kin; there was this enormous blind spot about what the women themselves were doing. 

 

Also, there's a lot of evidence that more people were literate than the 19th century historians who set the basemark assumed, that is, they could read, even if they couldn't write, especially after Gutenberg. 

 

Google Hildegarde von Bingen; you won't be disappointed.  She was a 12th century polymath; musician, doctor, mystic, scholar.  She had visions which told her to write everything down.  Her superiors couldn't argue with Divine Inspiration.

[Steelcan]

 

Google Hildegarde von Bingen; you won't be disappointed.  She was a 12th century polymath; musician, doctor, mystic, scholar.  She had visions which told her to write everything down.  Her superiors couldn't argue with Divine Inspiration.

Jeanne d'Arc agrees

 

the Burgundians had other ideas

[Allan Schumacher]

Closing.