446 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

If it isn't conscious sexism, non-derogatory, and done simply out of human error, then it isn't sexism imo. That sounds like a ludicrous push of the concept of microagression.

 

I disagree with the notion that sexism must be conscious and derogatory.  Sexism is simply a prejudice or discrimination against a particular sex - and when one simply assumes that a default person is a man that that discriminates (even if just mildly) against women.  I also think that it's important to challenge world views because it reminds us to be cognizant of it, lest we revert back.

 

 

I think part of the issue is also that people recognize sexism as being a bad thing so much that they feel insistent to reclassify things like this because it absolves them from having a sexist perspective about a particular topic.  I'm more comfortable now acknowledging that yup, I have some sexist tendencies in how I see things.  Some are probably more innocuous than others.  For instance, I have a tendency to refer to the player character as a "he" when discussing it with fans and co-workers.  I don't consider this derogatory, and I do feel that there are more hurtful forms of sexism out there.  But since it's been brought to my attention, I make a more concerted effort to use "they" since the player character could be male or female.  And perhaps most importantly for myself, acknowledging this doesn't make me feel like I'm a bad person, or even that I'm sexist.

 

Part of the issues with the -isms is that systematic/institutionalized means of conveying knowledge can inadvertently reinforce a believe.  The New York school curriculum features only a single woman, in grades 9 and 10 history.  I do believe that stuff like this colours a student's perspective on how much influence women had in history.  Which provides some context on why many people will argue about whether or not a video game's depiction of gender/sex is "realistic."

 

 

I wouldn't fault anyone for making the mistake if they are given zero means of identifying the person identity or to see any sort of characteristics that we use to identify and distinguish each other from one another, for assuming the most common denominator in trying to understand who the person is they are talking to, and to, if necessary, know what to say when trying to communicate with them, so as not to simply address them as "Unidentifiable Entity Whose Presence I Am Now Acknowledging". Humans just do not think this way, the brain is not set up to think in unknown designations for other humans on how we naturally categorize and compartmentalize information our brains receive.

 

I don't really find fault with someone for mistakenly assuming that a particular person is a man (or a woman) based on preconceived notions based on personal and societal expectations.  I certainly wouldn't consider someone looking at someone like this person (with her helmet on) and assuming a man as a bad person at all.  But it's one thing to look at one person's perception, and another when looking at a society's aggregate perceptions, and wondering that because it is that way, must it be that way?

 

 

A lot of people (including myself) display various -isms, and get very defensive (including myself) when called out on various -isms, because most of us recognize that the various -isms are not a good thing (which in and of itself is a good thing for people to recognize).  So when speaking of human brains not behaving a certain way, the human brain is *excellent* at defending itself against cognitive dissonance.  So if a say or do something that is actually sexist, but recognize that sexism is bad and aspire to not wanting to be sexist, I will rationalize that a sexist action I performed is not because if it were, it runs contrary to my self image that I am not sexist.  Any ammunition that could challenge that notion faces heavy resistance.

 

 

Not everyone will agree with my perspective, but given that if I am wearing a full suit of clothing (almost any clothing) masking my face and body, the likelihood of anyone mistaking me for a woman is pretty low.  I know I wouldn't really appreciate being mistaken for a woman, though, so I can empathize with people that it comes up a lot with.  I do not believe that most women have that luxury, which isn't in and of itself a bad thing in isolation, when part of the greater picture it's possibly the type of thing that reinforces our tendencies to put men front and center in fiction.  So it's a part of the problem, if not the biggest part of the problem.

 

IMO anyways.  And while you may disagree, it's still useful for you to know my perspective (and I yours), so that you can get a better understanding of what I am referring to when discussing the subject matter.

[Grieving Natashina]

Man, you should read some of the retarded sexist comments on it. Actually wait, you shouldn't and I wish I hadn't back when it was posted. I can't keep my mouth shut and got into a drawn out argument.

On videos like that, I avoid the comment section like the plague.

[Jynxed_]

The lack of women soldiers never bothered me. IMO this game would be classified as "medieval", and in medieval times women were meant to be the "housewife" whereas men were soldiers and laborers. The only race in Dragon Age that I would think had women soldiers would be the dwarves, and maybe the Dalish. :3

[Master Warder Z_]

The lack of women soldiers never bothered me. IMO this game would be classified as "medieval", and in medieval times women were meant to be the "housewife" whereas men were soldiers and laborers. The only race in Dragon Age that I would think had women soldiers would be the dwarves, and maybe the Dalish. :3

 

Just going to point out that the Head of Loghain's guard and his top Lt was a woman...

[Mes]

The lack of women soldiers never bothered me. IMO this game would be classified as "medieval", and in medieval times women were meant to be the "housewife" whereas men were soldiers and laborers. The only race in Dragon Age that I would think had women soldiers would be the dwarves, and maybe the Dalish. :3

 

How well do you know what happened in these "medieval" times, anyway.

 

Again though - video games and "perceived" real history? Don't necessarily need to have common ground.  

[Andraste_Reborn]

The lack of women soldiers never bothered me. IMO this game would be classified as "medieval", and in medieval times women were meant to be the "housewife" whereas men were soldiers and laborers. The only race in Dragon Age that I would think had women soldiers would be the dwarves, and maybe the Dalish. :3

 

Thedas is really nothing like Medieval Europe. Especially when it comes to attitudes to women. (And thank goodness for that.)

[DragonRacer]

 

I disagree with the notion that sexism must be conscious and derogatory.  Sexism is simply a prejudice or discrimination against a particular sex - and when one simply assumes that a default person is a man that that discriminates (even if just mildly) against women.  I also think that it's important to challenge world views because it reminds us to be cognizant of it, lest we revert back.

 

 

I think part of the issue is also that people recognize sexism as being a bad thing so much that they feel insistent to reclassify things like this because it absolves them from having a sexist perspective about a particular topic.  I'm more comfortable now acknowledging that yup, I have some sexist tendencies in how I see things.  Some are probably more innocuous than others.  For instance, I have a tendency to refer to the player character as a "he" when discussing it with fans and co-workers.  I don't consider this derogatory, and I do feel that there are more hurtful forms of sexism out there.  But since it's been brought to my attention, I make a more concerted effort to use "they" since the player character could be male or female.  And perhaps most importantly for myself, acknowledging this doesn't make me feel like I'm a bad person, or even that I'm sexist.

 

 

Some very good points here.

 

And just to point out that it goes both ways: not just men defaulting to referencing an unknown character as male. I do the exact same thing, and I am a woman. And yet, I will default to the male-pronoun for unknowns... a fully-armored soldier of unidentifiable gender? I immediately think male until proven otherwise. Someone refers to Shepard as "he"? I think nothing of it, even though the majority of my playthroughs have been FemShep. I refer to Legion as "he", even though it technically has no gender, simply because "it" seems too cold and "he" feels like a fit due to the male voice actor. Heck, even when playing ME3 MP online, I automatically assume all of my teammates are men unless and until they put on a mic and I discover otherwise... and all that, despite the fact that I, myself, am a female player and have run across many others.

 

It's just what society largely as a whole seems to default to. Gonna take a looooooooong time to adjust that, if ever. In my opinion, at least.

 

Also count me as one who applauds BioWare for the strides they've made in being more inclusive, and one who also feels badly when others accuse them of "not doing enough" when they've been doing waaaaaaaaaaaay more than a LOT of developers. 

[Nefla]

The lack of women soldiers never bothered me. IMO this game would be classified as "medieval", and in medieval times women were meant to be the "housewife" whereas men were soldiers and laborers. The only race in Dragon Age that I would think had women soldiers would be the dwarves, and maybe the Dalish. :3

It's classified as "fantasy" with parallels to medieval Europe. In a world with magic, enchanted armor, runes, dragons, people that never have to eat or go to the bathroom, etc...I think we've diverged from actual history quite a bit. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Also count me as one who applauds BioWare for the strides they've made in being more inclusive, and one who also feels badly when others accuse them of "not doing enough" when they've been doing waaaaaaaaaaaay more than a LOT of developers. 

 

I wish i could do more then like this post.

 

Personally i think it deserves a plack.

[Grieving Natashina]

 

It's classified as "fantasy" with parallels to medieval Europe. In a world with magic, enchanted armor, runes, dragons, people that never have to eat or go to the bathroom, etc...I think we've diverged from actual history quite a bit. 

 

 

One of the quotes from the video: "If you're making a fantasy game, then you need to stop using 'realism' as an excuse."

[Nightdragon8]

honestly I think it needs to be said, while the army may not descriminate between men and women fighters, that does not mean they "Want" to be fighters. And doing a 50/50 spilt doesn't seem right. I mean I can be a carptender doesn't mean i WANT to be one... So if anything there could be more men who want to be fighters than women, so i would say at least 75m/25w

 

and just because YOU want to be doesn't mean your neighbor does as well. so doing an even split doesn't seem realistic.

[Darth Krytie]

There's a difference between 'realism' and 'verisimilitude' which is what I think is more appropriate in a fantasy setting of any sort. As long as a made up universe is consistent with its own rules, and doesn't diverge too wildly out of believability given that universe's set of rules, then you'll have verisimilitude.

 

 

@Allan Everything you said was incredibly accurate. I think too many people focus on the fact when called out on an ism "that's bad and you made me feel bad, stop"
 that they don't actually 'hear' what the person pointing a problem out is saying. Understandable, to a point, until you get too aggressive with defending yourself and lashing out instead. Which happens fairly often on this board.

[Mes]

honestly I think it needs to be said, while the army may not descriminate between men and women fighters, that does not mean they "Want" to be fighters. And doing a 50/50 spilt doesn't seem right. I mean I can be a carptender doesn't mean i WANT to be one... So if anything there could be more men who want to be fighters than women, so i would say at least 75m/25w

 

and just because YOU want to be doesn't mean your neighbor does as well. so doing an even split doesn't seem realistic.

 

Who's to say that that many men "want" to fight either, though? I think it's a little silly to see men as these animalistic fighting machines, whether in real life or in games. I bet the percentage of people who truly WANT to put their lives at risk like that is very low.

 

However there are times when ordinary people can be motivated to fight, like if their home has been attacked for instance. A woman's motivation will not necessarily be so much lower than her male counterpart's. 

[DragonRacer]

Who's to say that that many men "want" to fight either, though? I think it's a little silly to see men as these animalistic fighting machines, whether in real life or in games. I bet the percentage of people who truly WANT to put their lives at risk like that is very low.

 

However there are times when ordinary people can be motivated to fight, like if their home has been attacked for instance. A woman's motivation will not necessarily be so much lower than her male counterpart's. 

 

Also a very good point.

 

The second part of your post makes me think of all the women who participated in WWII in the only way they could - in factories helping make the war machines or collecting recyclables to go to use for the male soldiers, etc. They wanted to do something, to participate, to help. When they couldn't do it on the frontlines, they damn sure did what they could on the homefront.

[Darth Krytie]

I actually don't discount the point that women might be more inclined toward having children and not wanting to be a soldier. And I don't discount the idea that having the ability to do something doesn't necessarily indicate the will to do something. I don't necessarily even think that there needs to be a fifty/fifty split of women/men in the armies we have, especially given different cultural attitudes toward the military in Thedas.

 

The only thing that I think matters is that the game designers don't just plop in dudes alone unless a female soldier has speaking lines. I want the population of troops and enemies and npcs to feel more organic and whole and less like a world in which men seem to asexually reproduce by dividing themselves into more men.

[Mes]

Also a very good point.

 

The second part of your post makes me think of all the women who participated in WWII in the only way they could - in factories helping make the war machines or collecting recyclables to go to use for the male soldiers, etc. They wanted to do something, to participate, to help. When they couldn't do it on the frontlines, they damn sure did what they could on the homefront.

 

True! It certainly wasn't about raising babies and doing the dishes.

 

There was also apparently a group of female pilots who would fly those little propeller planes at night, get into position above their target, turn the propeller off so they wouldn't be heard, drop bombs, then one of them would have to climb out onto the wing of the crashing plane to manually restart the propeller so they could make their escape. If anyone remembers the name of this group please let me know, it's escaped me. Point is women have contributed a lot to war efforts, and to imply that war somehow is only for men really disrespects a lot of heroes. 

[Mes]

 I want the population of troops and enemies and npcs to feel more organic and whole and less like a world in which men seem to asexually reproduce by dividing themselves into more men.

 

   

 

Oh lord that image is just hilarious.

[LPPrince]

True! It certainly wasn't about raising babies and doing the dishes.

 

There was also apparently a group of female pilots who would fly those little propeller planes at night, get into position above their target, turn the propeller off so they wouldn't be heard, drop bombs, then one of them would have to climb out onto the wing of the crashing plane to manually restart the propeller so they could make their escape. If anyone remembers the name of this group please let me know, it's escaped me. Point is women have contributed a lot to war efforts, and to imply that war somehow is only for men really disrespects a lot of heroes. 

 

Night Witches, I believe. They were Russian, I think?

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Night_Witches

 

Not exactly something I expect out of a Dragon Age though, given the circumstances.

 

Lack of planes.

[Cainhurst Crow]

There's a difference between 'realism' and 'verisimilitude' which is what I think is more appropriate in a fantasy setting of any sort. As long as a made up universe is consistent with its own rules, and doesn't diverge too wildly out of believability given that universe's set of rules, then you'll have verisimilitude.


@Allan Everything you said was incredibly accurate. I think too many people focus on the fact when called out on an ism "that's bad and you made me feel bad, stop"
that they don't actually 'hear' what the person pointing a problem out is saying. Understandable, to a point, until you get too aggressive with defending yourself and lashing out instead. Which happens fairly often on this board.

Oh sure its all that. Until playing fast and loose with claiming people express ism's gets the person fired by upper management and human resources and the zero tolerance/ zero context policies. Or gets folks ostracized by the non informed who see the accusation without the reason and decides they know all they need to know.

[Mes]

Night Witches, I believe. They were Russian, I think?

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Night_Witches

 

Not exactly something I expect out of a Dragon Age though, given the circumstances.

 

Lack of planes.

 

That's the one, thank you!!

 

Point is there are a lot of female war heroes that we might be ignorant about, hence again making this whole "because realism" argument for video games kind of ridiculous when we're not even all that sure WHAT'S REAL. 

 

(Maybe they can ride dragons? )

[Master Warder Z_]

That's the one, thank you!!

 

Point is there are a lot of female war heroes that we might be ignorant about, hence again making this whole "because realism" argument for video games kind of ridiculous. 

 

(Maybe they can ride dragons? )

 

The Wehrmacht allowed Women to serve it often as Flak Operators, Occasional Infantry and Sapper duties as early as 1937.

 

It's just the opposite spectrum of the faction you just presented.

 

Different flag, still let women fight

[Grieving Natashina]

True! It certainly wasn't about raising babies and doing the dishes.

 

There was also apparently a group of female pilots who would fly those little propeller planes at night, get into position above their target, turn the propeller off so they wouldn't be heard, drop bombs, then one of them would have to climb out onto the wing of the crashing plane to manually restart the propeller so they could make their escape. If anyone remembers the name of this group please let me know, it's escaped me. Point is women have contributed a lot to war efforts, and to imply that war somehow is only for men really disrespects a lot of heroes. 

Ah ha!  Took me a few.  They were called the Night Witches, in Russia.

 

http://www.theatlant...-war-ii/277779/

 

Edit: Ninja'd 

[LPPrince]

That's the one, thank you!!

 

Point is there are a lot of female war heroes that we might be ignorant about, hence again making this whole "because realism" argument for video games kind of ridiculous when we're not even all that sure WHAT'S REAL. 

 

(Maybe they can ride dragons? )

 

I'm actually against the idea that realism can't be used during an argument for a fantasy game.

 

Fantasy having real elements to it can add to the experience and take away from the experience, depending on what is taken from real scenarios/places/people, etc etc.

 

So any time I hear/read someone say, "Its fantasy so don't bring realism into it" I just shake my head.

[LPPrince]

Edit: Ninja'd 

 

Spoiler

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