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[KazKyzah]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on this forum.

I have just recently played and finished Mass effect 3.

I also have the Leviathan DLC, didnt play it yet but I have watched it and read about so I know mostly all about it.

 

I must say first that I really enjoyed the trilogy and I think bioware did an amazing job.

I always enjoyed bioware games alot including Mass effect and Dragon age.

 

But after finishing the third game I must say I am very disappointed with the explanations and information we are given regarded the

origins of the reapers, especially in the Leviathan DLC, and I will point a few questions that cant be and never will be answered,

simply because I think it was just poor writing, and nothing more.

 

We know the Leviathans were the dominant race in the galaxy and they possessed the ability to affect and enslave minds of others.

They had the other "lesser races" under their control, having them serve their needs and they were cared for,

until they advanced and started to build machines that eventually turned on them and wiped them out similar to what happened in other cycles including the protheans and the geth on the current cycle.

So to solve that problem the Leviathans created an AI with the purpose of "perserving life at any cost", the AI grew more sophisticated bla bla and eventually turned on them and thus started the first harvest and cycle, and the birth of the first reaper Harbinger.

 

we are left to wonder:

What were those army of pawns? were they like the geth? were they lesser reapers?

How were they strong enough to defeat a race capable of fully deactivating/destroying a capital ship reaper in 5 seconds?

If the Leviathans knew that the machines eventually turn on its creators and wipe them out, why did they just let the catalyst build an army strong and big enough to pose a threat?

Did they not think for one moment it can turn on them too?

What happened after the leviathans were killed and harvested? was this "army of pawns" advanced enough to escape and survive in dark space like the reapers that came AFTER do? they had to, because there was a second cycle.

if so, where did this "army of pawns" disappear? the reapers were only born one at a time in each cycle,

and when we see the reapers invade, there is just reapers. not half reapers half other strong synthetics.

 

and the one thing that ticks me the most.

If the catalyst's goal was to PRESERVE LIFE in other words, save the organics BEFORE they create machines that kill them,

how in hell did it conclude that the solution will be..... To wipe them out first! and take all their melted meat and shove it in a box inside a super robot? LOL

how exactly is it perserving life?

maybe the leviathan that programmed it forgot to add the word "life" and kept it only at "preserve". then i can understand what happened.

And before i finish i will give you another good one,

If the leviathans were the first chosen race to be "preserved", then it means, that the catalyst thought that the Leviathans will too, eventually create machines that will turn on them, so it chose to preserve them. and guess what, the catalyst just did what it was supposed to keep from happening.

lol

sorry but this has been running on my mind for a while. and while not exepcting a game story to be perfect,

this just seemed to be way filled with too many holes.

 

thanks in advance.

 

[CronoDragoon]

While I don't think the story is perfect, what you aren't seeing is that the Catalyst sees Reapers as living. Thus he is preserving life by uploading the minds of the races into Reaper form along with their DNA. An AI's concept of life is likely to be different from an organics. Once you take this premise, the rest makes sense. The Catalyst did not do to the Leviathans what he was created to prevent. He was created to prevent the total annihilation of all organic life by synthetics, which as you can see during the cycles does not happen. He "translates" organic life into Reaper form and lets the lesser-evolved species live until they are advanced enough to be harvested the next cycle.

 

As for the Leviathans, their fatal flaw is arrogance. They believed the issues that plagued their thralls (synthetics turning against the creators) would not apply to them, because darnit they rule the freaking universe and no one would dare. As it turns out, the Leviathans were ill-suited for the creation of AI, as they rose to dominance not through intelligence or cleverness but merely because of a trait their race happened to have - the domination of minds. There's not much reason to believe they are an especially wise or careful race at all.

 

It may be hard to swallow that the great problem of the ME universe (the cycles) is a result of an AI gone wild because of the hasty arrogance of an organic species. To me that sounds pretty fitting, though, and a clever subversion of the Reaper mystique. Had they executed the ending better, I think it would have worked beautifully.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Why do we need a subversion of the reaper mystique? Why at all?

It's like how people defend the Star Wars prequels individually by saying something like "Oh, it helps us see what Darth Vader was like as a child."
The problem isn't that the story was told poorly; it's that it shouldn't have been told. 

Anyway, the Reapers were perfectly described by Sovereign. They do it because they can, because it's what they wish. They are beyond understanding. That was more than enough; it was good. 

[CronoDragoon]

Why do we need a subversion of the reaper mystique? Why at all?

 

The concept of need doesn't exist here. You don't need to subvert the Reapers, and you don't need to not subvert the Reapers. As for why I prefer the subversion, it probably has something to do with the Reapers being boring globs of metal that only spout the same arrogant tripe that any game final boss spouts during the game. I don't understand the love for the Sovereign conversation as he just says the same hyperbolic crap that any villain too full of himself says. Then he gets owned a few hours later. Yeah, he's super badass.

[N7Gold]

The list of what we have been left to wonder, I've been trying to come up with plausible answers for them for quite some time, and I think I have some interesting ones.

 

What were those army of pawns? were they like the geth? were they lesser reapers?

 

I never put any thought on the identity of the pawns.

 

 

How were they strong enough to defeat a race capable of fully deactivating/destroying a capital ship reaper in 5 seconds?

 

Who knows? We've only seen a piece of the power of the Leviathans

 

If the Leviathans knew that the machines eventually turn on its creators and wipe them out, why did they just let the catalyst build an army strong and big enough to pose a threat?

 

Did they not think for one moment it can turn on them too?

 

This is a good question. See, the Leviathans are so used to making other races bending to their will and commands, they thought that no matter what method the Catalyst uses to fulfill its purpose, it would never harm them since they created it. That is the flaw of their reasoning.

 

 

What happened after the leviathans were killed and harvested?

 

There aren't a lot of details on this, but I believe that since the Leviathans told Shepard they made no mistakes regarding the Catalyst's "rebellion", they realized at the last minute that even though the Catalyst and its pawns were harvesting them to create the first Reaper, Harbinger, he is still doing what he is created to do, he is just forced to use a more crude method to find the solution th Leviathans require, so they hid from Harbinger and the Catalyst as they worked harvesting other races and created more Reapers.

 

 

One question that was never answered in the DLC is how could the Leviathans, a race who is powerful enough to kill Reapers, which is why Shepard went hunting for them in the first place, never attacked Harbinger when they had the opportunity to exact vengance on the Catalyst for "rebelling" against them? I get the feeling the Leviathans don't want to get in the way of the Reapers so they can survive, and they don't want to screw up what the Catalyst is trying to do., which may explain why they only want to fight the Reapers in self defense, not to help Shepard or any "lesser" race.

 

 

 

 

 

was this "army of pawns" advanced enough to escape and survive in dark space like the reapers that came AFTER do? they had to, because there was a second cycle.

if so, where did this "army of pawns" disappear? the reapers were only born one at a time in each cycle,

and when we see the reapers invade, there is just reapers. not half reapers half other strong synthetics.

 

 

There are no official details, but I believe that the Leviathans at the last minute realized

[SporkFu]

Could be that the catalyst's pawns -- whatever they were -- just bombed the Leviathan from orbit. All evidence we've seen shows that the Leviathan need some sort of transmitter (the artifacts) to exert their power. It's also possible that, when the Leviathan were harvested, the reapers (for lack of a better word) could somehow block the mind-control powers of the Leviathan. It's also possible there was one specific kind of pawn who could block those powers.

[von uber]

Nothing to add, but I really like Leviathan.

 

 

I like the mix of missions, quite different from a lot of ME3.

[metalfenix]

Sometimes I wonder if the leviathans could be the main enemy on the next mass effects. Such an arrogant race....they should learn their place on the galaxy.

[JamesFaith]

 

How were they strong enough to defeat a race capable of fully deactivating/destroying a capital ship reaper in 5 seconds?.

 

And were they able to destroy capital Reaper in first cycle?

 

By my opinion this is result of millions of years of technological research focused on one thing - how to defend and keep out of Reapers. 

[KaiserShep]

Sometimes I wonder if the leviathans could be the main enemy on the next mass effects. Such an arrogant race....they should learn their place on the galaxy.

 

Part of me wouldn't mind this, if only for the prospect of wiping them from existence. That said, the Leviathan are basically "reaper lite". They have much of the reapers mind-bending abilities, but with none of the supermegaultra machine god firepower. Basically, it's back to ME1 and 3's use of a primary indoctrinated agent that works against you, as well as random alien and human mooks to kill until you finally get to send the space calamari to hell.

[KazKyzah]

Another dumb, but well deserved question:

 

It is possible and likely that had the Leviathans not create the catalyst who started the cycles,

Eventually some kind of rogue AI/synthetics or whatever would rebel against the Leviathans or anyone that could come after them, and wipe out all organic life from the galaxy leaving only synthetic to rule.

We also know that one of the possible endings is to allow shepard control the reapers to serve as a supreme police force of the galaxy to keep order and prevent anything like that happening.

 

SO WHY THE HELL THE CATALYST COULDNT DO IT FIRST PLACE?

why not use his damn army or whatever he had to just protect the lesser enthralled species and everyone else from being wiped out from the galaxy?

why the hell did he need to wipe everything clean each time, organic and synthetic and let everyone start from scratch over and over again.

why not just let them keep going and if some kind of synthetic rebels just take it out.

 

there is also a dumb answer for that I just came up with: to prevent overpopulation........

[q5tyhj]

 

and the one thing that ticks me the most.

If the catalyst's goal was to PRESERVE LIFE in other words, save the organics BEFORE they create machines that kill them,

how in hell did it conclude that the solution will be..... To wipe them out first! and take all their melted meat and shove it in a box inside a super robot? LOL

how exactly is it perserving life?

 

Well, but according to the story, their purpose isn't to preserve this or that particular form of life, but life as such. And if it is the case that all organic civilizations eventually create synthetics, and that they inevitably go to war with those synthetics, and that these wars can potentially spill over and threaten other (perhaps less evolved) forms of life, then there isn't any direct contradiction here. According to the story, if the Reapers don't harvest advanced civilizations that have gotten to the point where they can create (and go to war with) synthetics, then all life in the galaxy could potentially perish. So its like the classic trolley car thought experiment- would you sacrifice one life to save five? Also, by harvesting the more advanced civilizations, the Reapers are collecting and preserving all the accumulated culture and knowledge of these societies, albeit in Reaper form, which would otherwise probably have just been wiped out if the wars with synthetics continued.

 

Is it the most plausible or consistent story? Hardly. But is it as much of a blatant contradiction as it seems? No.

[SporkFu]

Evolving civilizations became an experiment for the catalyst. It has no emotional attachment to organics. It preserves life in reaper form because it was mandated to preserve life. It was given a problem to solve and the reapers are its solution. Every time they harvest a civilization, it's like, "okay back to the drawing board."

 

I really think that because it has no real investment in organic life, it's incapable of finding a different solution on its own. It took organics to invent the crucible because they don't want to die, and it took shep actually reaching the catalyst (with the crucible ready to go) to "alter the variables".

[Astrogenesis]

Well, but according to the story, their purpose isn't to preserve this or that particular form of life, but life as such. And if it is the case that all organic civilizations eventually create synthetics, and that they inevitably go to war with those synthetics, and that these wars can potentially spill over and threaten other (perhaps less evolved) forms of life, then there isn't any direct contradiction here. According to the story, if the Reapers don't harvest advanced civilizations that have gotten to the point where they can create (and go to war with) synthetics, then all life in the galaxy could potentially perish. So its like the classic trolley car thought experiment- would you sacrifice one life to save five? Also, by harvesting the more advanced civilizations, the Reapers are collecting and preserving all the accumulated culture and knowledge of these societies, albeit in Reaper form, which would otherwise probably have just been wiped out if the wars with synthetics continued.

 

Is it the most plausible or consistent story? Hardly. But is it as much of a blatant contradiction as it seems? No.

 

This is another contradiction made by the Reapers.

Take the invasion of Earth for example. How do you undertake an invasion of that scale, and not do severe harm to a less evolved race on Earth, Apes for example.

 

On the subject of preserving life, why, if the goal is to make a reaper from the advanced life, would you turn a massive portion of that species in to husky zombies, and then use them to kill another massive portion of said species?

 

And rather unrelated to the above, is it ever justified why Sovereign uses the Geth for his own prepossess in ME1?

If your goal is to prevent war with synthetics, why would you acquire a synthetic army and start killing organics with them? I know you could argue that it was overruled in order to begin the cycle, but literally speaking, its like someone who is against guns, buying a gun and using it to shoot arms dealers.  

[q5tyhj]

This is another contradiction made by the Reapers.

Take the invasion of Earth for example. How do you undertake an invasion of that scale, and not do severe harm to a less evolved race on Earth, Apes for example.

 

On the subject of preserving life, why, if the goal is to make a reaper from the advanced life, would you turn a massive portion of that species in to husky zombies, and then use them to kill another massive portion of said species?

 

And rather unrelated to the above, is it ever justified why Sovereign uses the Geth for his own prepossess in ME1?

If your goal is to prevent war with synthetics, why would you acquire a synthetic army and start killing organics with them? I know you could argue that it was overruled in order to begin the cycle, but literally speaking, its like someone who is against guns, buying a gun and using it to shoot arms dealers.  

 

Indeed- the first point you mention is, IMO, a far bigger contradiction than the whole "I'm going to kill you in order to save you" deal; it undermines the whole premise of the backstory since its pretty implausible to imagine that invasions and destruction of the order of those we see on Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and so on, do not have a similar effect. It sure seems like the Reapers are destroying sh*t pretty indiscriminately- when you see the planet from in space, half of it appears to be burning! 

 

As for the second, I think its just a matter of convenience- if they only need so many specimens to create a Reaper, then why not use the rest of the species to do your own work for you? And I also remember some comment in-game about the Reapers screening people to find specimens with certain traits that they are looking for- in other words, only certain people have the traits they need to make a Reaper, and so the rest are expendable. Enter- husk cannon-fodder. 

 

And the last point is certainly right- talk about a HUGE dose of irony. 

[Han Shot First]

The Catalyst is basically like Clu from Tron.

 

And it fails at it's mandate for similar reasons; imperfect programming born from the the flawed views of its creator(s).