2138 réponses à ce sujet

[Cankiie]

So wouldn't you have found it odd if Fenris had been straight too?

 

No.

[SnakeCode]

Let's try this. Say people want Iron Bull as a LI. If he was straight, only the female characters will get him. So what of those who don't want to have to play as a female for a supposed 100 hour long game just to see Iron Bull's romance content? Now if he was available to men and women, those people wouldn't have to play as a gender they don't want to in order to experience the content. In this example, more people are satisfied in the latter option than the former. Meanwhile, the people who don't want that have the option not to do that, thus they are satisfied as well. 

And? Why should those people get to romance him? Nobody has an inherent right to romance anybody, just because they like them.

 

The people arguing for the other side's argument has never been one of losing out on content, it's always been one of realism (in b4 fantasy game realism no apply here) so their enjoyment of the game would indeed suffer with the scenario you proposed.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Yes.  It is.  Look, here's the thing.  You admit that you don't have much experience with gay men.  But that doesn't excuse you from being socially aware.  If a group of people who do have extensive experience with a subject tell you that your statements are inflammatory and offensive, then perhaps it's time to take a step back and think about it.  Going into a thread about gay romances and telling the posters within that you have an issue with certain characters being gay because they are "too masculine" to be gay is, well, offensive.  Perhaps you didn't know that's how it would come off.  But now you do.  It's a particularly sensitive subject to many gay men, for a litany of reasons.  One of which is the constant barrage of stereotypes about our masculinity based on our sexuality.  That's what you seem to have stumbled on. 

 

To elaborate, there is the idea that being feminine is inherently bad. That's the stereotype linked to gay men; that they are 'like women'. Which manages to shame gay men on occasions when they don't conform to traditional standards of masculinity and all women regardless. Which is why I'm still side eying your statement about 'getting that vibe' off of Anders.

 

So as daveliam said, yeah, the ideas of masculinity/femininity are very sensitive topics b/c they are intrinsically linked to how many people view the LGBT community...and women...generally. And using the, you're too ___ or _____ to be gay argument is a fairly common thing that members across the LGBT spectrum hear as an insult that (intentionally or not) is used to devalidate someones identity and experience.

[Cankiie]

Yes.  It is.  Look, here's the thing.  You admit that you don't have much experience with gay men.  But that doesn't excuse you from being socially aware.  If a group of people who do have extensive experience with a subject tell you that your statements are inflammatory and offensive, then perhaps it's time to take a step back and think about it.  Going into a thread about gay romances and telling the posters within that you have an issue with certain characters being gay because they are "too masculine" to be gay is, well, offensive.  Perhaps you didn't know that's how it would come off.  But now you do.  It's a particularly sensitive subject to many gay men, for a litany of reasons.  One of which is the constant barrage of stereotypes about our masculinity based on our sexuality.  That's what you seem to have stumbled on. 

 

Now you made me doubt again.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And? Why should those people get to romance him? Nobody has an inherent right to romance anybody, just because they like them.

 

The people arguing for the other side's argument has never been one of losing out on content, it's always been one of realism (in b4 fantasy game realism no apply here) so their enjoyment of the game would indeed suffer with the scenario you proposed.

Why? Unless they metagame, which people shouldn't, then they'd never know the option even exists. Even if they do, their character doesn't. 

 

I'll never get why people think options should be limited in RPGs, especially to only some fans. That's like making less enemies in shooters. It goes against the point of the game. 

 

Regardless, we're arguing in circles. I'm out. 

[SnakeCode]

No.

Why not? If your point is "I've never met a gay person like Fenris so I have an issue with him being gay." then surely "I've never met a straight person like Fenris so I have an issue with him being straight." should be the logical line of thought. Do you disagree?

[SnakeCode]

Why? Unless they metagame, which people shouldn't, then they'd never know the option even exists. Even if they do, their character doesn't. 

 

I'll never get why people think options should be limited in RPGs, especially to only some fans. That's like making less enemies in shooters. It goes against the point of the game. 

To be clear i'm not arguing for one side or the other. 

 

My argument has always been "They're Bioware's characters, they should do what they want to do with them." I'm just getting tired of people thinking that because they like a certain character they deserve to be able to romance them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'd still like you to answer my question though. 

[Cankiie]

To elaborate, there is the idea that being feminine is inherently bad. That's the stereotype linked to gay men; that they are 'like women'. Which manages to shame gay men on occasions when they don't conform to traditional standards of masculinity and all women regardless. Which is why I'm still side eying your statement about 'getting that vibe' off of Anders.

 

So as daveliam said, yeah, the ideas of masculinity/femininity are very sensitive topics b/c they are intrinsically linked to how many people view the LGBT community...and women...generally. And using the, you're too ___ or _____ to be gay argument is a fairly common thing that members across the LGBT spectrum hear as an insult that (intentionally or not) is used to devalidate someones identity and experience.

 

Given sufficient cause I would bash gay communities however I can.

 

But that is not really the point currently.

 

Masculinity and femininity isn't really something I consider an issue, because I look more at is in the way that there are traits that are typically female and traits that are typically male. Whether people take offense to that is not really my problem.

 

Gay and bisexual people to me, have more feminin traits, and while they do indeed also have masculine traits, then it seems that there are more feminin traits than masculin.

 

Fenris emits more masculinity than feminity. He is violently, aggressive for starters, which is typically a masculin trait. He shows to be bad at showing empathy, which is a typical, feminin trait. He is not very tolerant, as seen with his relationship to mages. He is not very caring, not even for other slaves, seeing them as pathetic when he realise they can even live for themselves without a slaver.

 

I understand you might not be from a scandinavian country.

 

Because this isn't really that much of an issue in these surrounding areas. I would like to meet more gay people, but I doubt my view would change that much, because I still believe that there is far more feminine traits in gay and bisexual people, than there are masculine. I could be very wrong, I could also be correct but it just won't be admitted because it is indeed very touchy and scary to be a little feminin.

 

But I will try to refrain from keeping discussing this further, I don't think anything good will come out of it.

[SnakeCode]

What was the question?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You guys should stop now. You're going to get warnings at this rate. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What was the question?

Why would those who don't like characters being available to both suffer when they don't have to do it?

[wolfhowwl]

Let's try this. Say people want Iron Bull as a LI:

 

If he was straight, only the female characters will get him. So what of those who don't want to have to play as a female for a supposed 100 hour long game just to see Iron Bull's romance content?

 

Now if he was available to men and women, those people wouldn't have to play as a gender they don't want to in order to experience the content.

 

Meanwhile, the people who don't want the latter have the option not to do the latter, thus they are satisfied as well. 

 

In this example, more people are satisfied in the latter option than the former.

 

What if Iron Bull was only interested in his own species (a reasonable stance)?

 

Would it be fine to ask players to replay the game as a Qunari to access the romance?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What if Iron Bull was only interested in his own species (a reasonable stance)?

 

Would it be fine to ask players to replay the game as a Qunari to access the romance?

No, it wouldn't actually. 

[SnakeCode]

Why would those who don't like characters being available to both suffer when they don't have to do it?

I already said why. Some people's suspension of disbelief only goes so far, people who feel that "realism" is more important than everyone getting their waifu are going to enjoy the game less because they feel that everybody being bisexual would jeopardize the realism.

 

Do you not remember a ton of people complaining about this in the bsn after DA2?

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Ugh NVM.

 

And honestly the people complaining at DA2 clearly hadn't even played the romances they were complaining about so no I really don't care that much. (Like Anders always getting Rivalry or him forever being mad. +15 Rivalry is a damn drop in the bucket for Anders. You can have him with maxed friendship by the end of act 1. They could cry me a river with that crapola.)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I already said why. Some people's suspension of disbelief only goes so far, people who feel that "realism" is more important than everyone getting their waifu are going to enjoy the game less because they feel that everybody being bisexual would jeopardize the realism.

 

Do you not remember a ton of people complaining about this in the bsn after DA2?

But is the number of people whose suspension of disbelief is so small they can't separate their game world from others more than those who would like to play a romance how they want? If so, then fine do it their way. 

 

You mean the arguments who were always started by the same few people? 

[wolfhowwl]

No, it wouldn't actually. 

 

Okay. What about alignment/reputation?

 

Would it be reasonable to ask a player to play the game as pro-mage or pro-Templar if they wanted to access say Vivienne's or Cullen's romance?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Okay. What about alignment/reputation?

 

Would it be reasonable to ask a player to play the game as pro-mage or pro-Templar if they wanted to access say Vivienne's or Cullen's romance?

Things the player can influence outside of the CC affecting romances I would love. For example, if Blood Magic was in the game, learning it will close Cassandra off due to her history with it. 

[SnakeCode]

But is the number of people whose suspension of disbelief is so small they can't separate their game world from others more than those who would like to play a romance how they want? If so, then fine do it their way. 

 

You mean the arguments who were always started by the same few people? 

That's assuming that it would have no effect on their game. It would.

 

I don't remember every thread but there were more than a "few" people. There were many who shared their sentiments in those threads, even if they didn't start new threads themselves.

 

Anyway, I tire of this discussion. Nobody is arguing for fairness on either side. It is ultimately a selfish argument, and i've stated multiple times that I'm really not bothered how they do it.

[Isaidlunch]

I wonder how people would have reacted if Fenris wasn't available to a Mage Hawke.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's assuming that it would have no effect on their game. It would.

 

I don't remember every thread but there were more than a "few" people. There were many who shared their sentiments in those threads, even if they didn't start new threads themselves.

 

Anyway, I tire of this discussion. Nobody is arguing for fairness on either side. It is ultimately a selfish argument, and i've stated multiple times that I'm really not bothered how they do it.

I'm just arguing for the option that benefits as many people as possible. I have no problem playing either gender, so I still get to experience everything. Not everyone is that lucky however and I think if possible their cares should be tended to as well. So don't call me selfish. 

[Allan Schumacher]

He just seemed so incredibly masculine, not looking at his appearance. Watching him forcing a male hawke up against a wall only to smooch him afterwards felt awkward to watch. I didn't have much against Anders to be honest, he had that vibe about him, but Fenris just didn't. It might just be me who doesn't really associate gay/bisexual people with dark, broody characters. It just feels so wrong to have Fenris being gay.

 

This convinces me that having Fenris (and characters like him) be gay and bisexual is something we need to do more of.

 

Both gay and straight men can be either masculine or feminine (and it's quite all right for them to be either, as well).

[SnakeCode]

I'm just arguing for the option that benefits as many people as possible. I have no problem playing either gender, so I still get to experience everything. Not everyone is that lucky however and I think if possible their cares should be tended to as well. So don't call me selfish. 

I never called you selfish. Please don't put words into my mouth. I said the argument itself is a selfish one. It boils down to "what I want vs what they want." And I don't care for either side.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I never called you selfish. Please don't put words into my mouth. I said the argument itself is a selfish one. It boils down to "what I want vs what they want." And I don't care for either side.

Sorry, I thought by calling it a selfish argument you were inferring that anyone who makes it is also selfish. My apologies.