2138 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

The bolded is exactly what I was trying to get at. People don't have the right to date someone just because they like them. Characters have the right to turn the pc down for any reason they wish. "I don't swing that way" is a perfectly valid reason.

 

Just to note (coming from the guy that works for a studio that is making set sexuality romanceable characters), in our games you intrinsically cannot date any character that you wish.

 

You're only ever afforded the opportunity to romance a VERY limited number of characters in our game.

[king jacky]

so who do u place ur bets on(jk)

[SnakeCode]

Except that's often never why you get rejected though. Your PC simply can't hit on them at all most of the time.

Well, iirc in DA2 besides Aveline the pc doesn't get turned down for any reason. You can be broken up with, but not simply turned down right off the bat, which I find a little ridiculous.

 

I don't see where you're getting "your pc simply can't hit on them" from though. In DA2 im pretty sure the pc always initiates the flirting/romantic intentions.

[Ryzaki]

"I'll give you this ring, so that I can keep an eye on you" so she'll give me this ring, and doesn't really dare admit that she actually cares. So she cares, but doesn't admit it, which is Morrigan being Morrigan.

 

By the end, when she propose the ritual, she will also mention, if in a romance (Or was) that her feelings for you only makes her try harder to convince you to do the ritual with her, she wants you alive, she don't want you dead.

 

She shows far more affection, but won't really admit that she is actually in love with the warden.... it is kinda cute.

 

As for the last thing. It IS a typical female thing. And again, yes there are exceptions, but there is a reason why I so often use the word typical.

 

Wait...are you seriously saying someone can't be masculine and show affection? Hell Sten shows affection towards the Warden.

 

Also she does not show more affection than the rest of the LIs they're pretty equal on that front.  Morrigan has her ring, Zevran has his earring, Alistair has his rose and Leliana has...well Leliana's Leliana. (You know it's kind of lame everyone gets a gift to give to the PC but Leli. She just steals your eyelashes).

 

What blatantly inviting people you barely know (you can get that dialogue to trigger not long after Lothering) to sleep with you is a typical female thing now? Huh.

 

Edit: Ring not rose.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 mai 2014 - 01:35 .

[Allan Schumacher]

But they would still show more obvious feminine traits when it comes to their personality.

 

Fenris is violently, aggressive. He is blunt. He shows a lack of empathy. Fenris have been made very masculine and not at all as a person that I have experienced any gay or bisexual male as being. They tend to be far more sensitive, they tend to show far more empathy, they tend to be more gentle.

What makes you think this?

[SnakeCode]

Just to note (coming from the guy that works for a studio that is making set sexuality romanceable characters), in our games you intrinsically cannot date any character that you wish.

 

You're only ever afforded the opportunity to romance a VERY limited number of characters in our game.

Yeah I know that. To clarify, I was talking about characters that will be available to romance.

[Ryzaki]

Well, iirc in DA2 besides Aveline the pc doesn't get turned down for any reason. You can be broken up with, but not simply turned down right off the bat, which I find a little ridiculous.

 

I don't see where you're getting "your pc simply can't hit on them" from though. In DA2 im pretty sure the pc always initiates the flirting/romantic intentions.

 

You get turned down by Sam as male Shep. But yeah you never get turned down otherwise than those two.

 

I'm talking about in cases where the genders don't match up you can never hit on them in the first place. (alistair with a male PC, Morrigan with a female PC, Garrus with MShep, Tali with FemShep so on).

[SnakeCode]

You get turned down by Sam as male Shep. But yeah you never get turned down.

 

I'm talking about in cases where the genders don't match up you can never hit on them in the first place. (alistair with a male PC, Morrigan with a female PC, Garrus with MShep, Tali with FemShep so on).

Oh. Well I think the pc should always be able to show romantic interest, I just don't think that the other character should be obligated to return those feelings.

[Ryzaki]

Oh. Well I think the pc should always be able to show romantic interest, I just don't think that the other character should be obligated to return those feelings.

 

Fair enough.

 

If we had 2/2/2 I would love for the PC to be able to hit on pretty much everyone under the sun and get some hilarious rejections in response.

 

I always flirt with that dalish woman in Sundermount cause her "Um...no." is amusing.

[AkiKishi]

I do find it a bit odd that people are invoking the "rights" for fictional characters.  Do fictional characters have any rights?  They aren't real.  I think it's an odd way to position the argument.

 

They are as real as the PC in the context of the world. I really do loathe the whole Schrondinger's Sextoy thing on so many levels. It's called that because the companions can be anything until you open the box.

[daveliam]

Well, iirc in DA2 besides Aveline the pc doesn't get turned down for any reason. You can be broken up with, but not simply turned down right off the bat, which I find a little ridiculous.

 

I don't see where you're getting "your pc simply can't hit on them" from though. In DA2 im pretty sure the pc always initiates the flirting/romantic intentions.

 

Yes, in DA 2 and ME3, there was the opportunity to flirt with a few characters who turn you down:  Aveline because she's not romanceable and Traynor if you are a male.  However, before that, there was never an option to "be turned down" by a character.  You just couldn't engage in any flirting with them at all so that's why it rings a little hollow when people say that it "adds to the character". 

[daveliam]

They are as real as the PC in the context of the world. I really do loathe the whole Schrondinger's Sextoy thing on so many levels. It's called that because the companions can be anything until you open the box.

 

Yeah, but the PC isn't real and doesn't have any right either.  So, I guess I'm just not getting your point.

 

Also, I'm not convinced that we've ever had playersexual characters in DA, but you don't seem to respond when I ask you to show me proof that they are playersexual and not just bisexual.

[Cankiie]

Wait...are you seriously saying someone can't be masculine and show affection? Hell Sten shows affection towards the Warden.

 

Also she does not show more affection than the rest of the LIs they're pretty equal on that front.  Morrigan has her ring, Zevran has his earring, Alistair has his rose and Leliana has...well Leliana's Leliana. (You know it's kind of lame everyone gets a gift to give to the PC but Leli. She just steals your eyelashes).

 

What blatantly inviting people you barely know (you can get that dialogue to trigger not long after Lothering) to sleep with you is a typical female thing now? Huh.

 

Edit: Ring not rose.

 

I don't really think blatant was the word I was looking for when she so sweetly said that it was cold in her tent where she actually meant that she would like to bang the warden right now.

 

What it typically female about it, is not being as blunt about it. I am sure I have written an assignment on communication somewhere, it is, however, danish so translating it will most likelly be problematic.

 

All I can really say is that it is typical for females to wrap what they actually want to say, again, using Morrigan. Where someone who is male will typically be far more blatant about it, asking if she want to come home with him and have some fun. Then a female, like Morrigan, would mention that their tent is cold, which could possibly lead to various answers, and it did, such as, should I get you another blanket? It wasn't really blatant that Morrigan wanted, was sex, and it is typically females to do something like this. Again.... exceptions exist.

 

What makes you think this?

 

 

Which part?

 

Females typically showing more empathy, care, gentleness, all these kinds of more soothing emotions. I would be so bold as to say that it is in our biology, I am not sure what others are taught when it comes to biology, the human brain and general communication, it could be very different and I would like to add that the grades we get here in Denmark is not necessarily the highest on a global level, so I could be absolutely ignorant for all we know.

 

The thing with gay and bisexual people being having more feminine traits than masculine traits however, is what I have experienced so far.

[AkiKishi]

Yeah, but the PC isn't real and doesn't have any right either.  So, I guess I'm just not getting your point.

 

Also, I'm not convinced that we've ever had playersexual characters in DA, but you don't seem to respond when I ask you to show me proof that they are playersexual and not just bisexual.

 

The player character is most certainly real in that setting. The player is not. 

 

Someone once worked out the odds of that. The herosexual thing is more believable. It's not worth arguing because herosexual characters no longer exist. 

[Ryzaki]

I don't really think blatant was the word I was looking for when she so sweetly said that it was cold in her tent where she actually meant that she would like to bang the warden right now.

 

What it typically female about it, is not being as blunt about it. I am sure I have written an assignment on communication somewhere, it is, however, danish so translating it will most likelly be problematic.

 

All I can really say is that it is typical for females to wrap what they actually want to say, again, using Morrigan. Where someone who is male will typically be far more blatant about it, asking if she want to come home with him and have some fun. Then a female, like Morrigan, would mention that their tent is cold, which could possibly lead to various answers, and it did, such as, should I get you another blanket? It wasn't really blatant that Morrigan wanted, was sex, and it is typically females to do something like this. Again.... exceptions exist.

 

 

Which part?

 

Females typically showing more empathy, care, gentleness, all these kinds of more soothing emotions. I would be so bold as to say that it is in our biology, I am not sure what others are taught when it comes to biology, the human brain and general communication, it could be very different and I would like to add that the grades we get here in Denmark is not necessarily the highest on a global level, so I could be absolutely ignorant for all we know.

 

The thing with gay and bisexual people being having more feminine traits than masculine traits however, is what I have experienced so far.

 

Sweetly?

 

She was pretty blunt. "A warm body next time mine would feel better." doesn't leave much room for confusion.

 

And Zevran mentions a message. Heck I think Alistair's the only one in DAO who flat out says from the jump spend the night with me.

 

It really was blatant that was what she wanted...I'm not sure how you missed it.

 

You're seriously saying Morrigan shows that in abundance? I mean...really?

 

Someone being nice to you doesn't suddenly make them a caring and gentle person.

 

And plenty of people have told you your experience doesn't align with their own.

[ElitePinecone]

Fenris is violently, aggressive. He is blunt. He shows a lack of empathy. Fenris have been made very masculine and not at all as a person that I have experienced any gay or bisexual male as being. They tend to be far more sensitive, they tend to show far more empathy, they tend to be more gentle. There are just certain traits that are typically female and certain traits that are typically male, not necessarily always true, but there is a reason why they typically are one or the other gender and bisexual and gay males tend to have more feminine traits in their personality.

 

So it is definently not just about being attracted to one or another gender than determines femininity or masculinity, I guess I just have a wider accept of that there is infact, typical gender traits. But I won't deny that it is not always necessarily like that, but so far, I have not experienced otherwise.

 

It's definitely best to not use personal experience as a guide here. I know you're not trying to be deliberately offensive, but insisting that all gay/bi men share typical traits is demonstrably not true. Apart from the shared trait of liking guys, I suppose. 

 

There's a separate question regarding typical gender traits, and again I think you're both oversimplifying things ("they tend to be [huge sweeping generalisations]") and assuming that something is universal just because it's stereotypical. Even if everyone you met was feminine - and I think that's extremely unlikely - it really tells you nothing about the six hundred million or so other same-sex attracted people who you haven't met.

 

Even if concepts of masculinity and femininity weren't so problematic, culturally-constructed, and vague, I assure you that there are enormous numbers of gay or bi men who are arguably more masculine than many straight guys. There are whole subcultures in gay male identity devoted to being excessively masculine, or "straight-acting", or any other gender identity that you can possibly imagine. 

 

The touchiness of the subject doesn't really come from the negative connotations of femininity - in my experience, it comes from wariness about being pigeonholed or stereotyped as anything. So, while I can only counter your personal experience with my personal experience, it's really a bad idea to go around saying that all gay or bi men share this or that trait. At best it looks horribly uninformed, and most of the time you risk being actively offensive. 

[Hellion Rex]

In that case I am indeed not a target, as I mostly feel pretty neutral about acts of love between two same gendered persons. Fenris was a rare case.

 

 

It was meant more as gay people are more masculine in appearance, they can work out, get big muscles, have short hair. But they would still show more obvious feminine traits when it comes to their personality.

 

Fenris is violently, aggressive. He is blunt. He shows a lack of empathy. Fenris have been made very masculine and not at all as a person that I have experienced any gay or bisexual male as being. They tend to be far more sensitive, they tend to show far more empathy, they tend to be more gentle. There are just certain traits that are typically female and certain traits that are typically male, not necessarily always true, but there is a reason why they typically are one or the other gender and bisexual and gay males tend to have more feminine traits in their personality.

Funny, how several of my exes were very blunt, violent, and aggressive. You are flat out wrong about how gay/bi men are "supposed to act". Our personalities are just as varied as any straight person, so stop trying to put us all in one neat little box.

[king jacky]

hmmm were should I start fixing the problems hhhhmmmm 

[oceanicsurvivor]

In that case I am indeed not a target, as I mostly feel pretty neutral about acts of love between two same gendered persons. Fenris was a rare case.

 

 

It was meant more as gay people are more masculine in appearance, they can work out, get big muscles, have short hair. But they would still show more obvious feminine traits when it comes to their personality.

 

Fenris is violently, aggressive. He is blunt. He shows a lack of empathy. Fenris have been made very masculine and not at all as a person that I have experienced any gay or bisexual male as being. They tend to be far more sensitive, they tend to show far more empathy, they tend to be more gentle. There are just certain traits that are typically female and certain traits that are typically male, not necessarily always true, but there is a reason why they typically are one or the other gender and bisexual and gay males tend to have more feminine traits in their personality.

 

So it is definently not just about being attracted to one or another gender than determines femininity or masculinity, I guess I just have a wider accept of that there is infact, typical gender traits. But I won't deny that it is not always necessarily like that, but so far, I have not experienced otherwise.

 

Sidetracked:

 

I also believe a statement was attempted with trying to paint Morrigan as being masculine, which is just not true. Morrigan ended up showing the same care for the warden, if romanced, that is characteristic for a female, she even started wrapping what she actually want to say, into a completely unrelated sentence, not sure how to describe this in english but she basically said: "Tis cold in my tent all alone" where she actually meant "I want to bang you, now" 

 

There are a couple things super messed up here, that I haven't seen mentioned, so I'm just gonna throw um out there.

 

1) None of the traits you mention for masculinity are positive. Most of them involve Fenris being just shy of turning into the Hulk. That seems like an unhealthy and extreme view of masculinity to me.

 

2) Conversely, ignoring that gay people (men and women) can be violent and aggressive actually plays into erasure of domestic violence in the LGBT community (and, really, even that women can physically and otherwise abuse male partners). This is one BIG reason why saying everyone falls as X or Y with almost no overlap or nuance is so problematic. It means people aren't looking for these sort of things, and sometimes even ignore their existence.

 

People, as a whole, come with a variety of personality traits, both good and bad. If there are 'tendencies', its because of the way we have been socially conditioned to behave. Men and women do not 'tend' to be anything. They are born and they are taught.

[Allan Schumacher]

Females typically showing more empathy, care, gentleness, all these kinds of more soothing emotions. I would be so bold as to say that it is in our biology, I am not sure what others are taught when it comes to biology, the human brain and general communication, it could be very different and I would like to add that the grades we get here in Denmark is not necessarily the highest on a global level, so I could be absolutely ignorant for all we know.

 

The thing with gay and bisexual people being having more feminine traits than masculine traits however, is what I have experienced so far.

 

(Female bold emphasis mine) 

 

I'm not sure why females/women came up.  The post I quoted was referring to gay and bisexual men.  Since you're talking about biology, however... are you suggesting that a gay man is really more of a woman?  Because that's really how it reads to me with your description....

[SwobyJ]

Such broad terms are being spoken by Cankiie that it really isn't about Fenris anymore.

 

It's like from one of the original posts, Fenris shoves you violently. That means he can't be gay now? Really? That's such a narrow view of sexuality that I can only say that I think it's highly incorrect.

 

There are stereotypes people make, and there's often a reason for it (we have pattern recognition to help us - to a point). But they're still stereotypes.

 

This is why it's so hard to convince many men and women I meet that I'm gay and yes, I have to head home after class to make dinner with my boyfriend. Really really.

[karushna5]

In that case I am indeed not a target, as I mostly feel pretty neutral about acts of love between two same gendered persons. Fenris was a rare case.
 

 
It was meant more as gay people are more masculine in appearance, they can work out, get big muscles, have short hair. But they would still show more obvious feminine traits when it comes to their personality.
 
Fenris is violently, aggressive. He is blunt. He shows a lack of empathy. Fenris have been made very masculine and not at all as a person that I have experienced any gay or bisexual male as being. They tend to be far more sensitive, they tend to show far more empathy, they tend to be more gentle. There are just certain traits that are typically female and certain traits that are typically male, not necessarily always true, but there is a reason why they typically are one or the other gender and bisexual and gay males tend to have more feminine traits in their personality.

The thing is people apply that, but forget what we consider masculine or feminine is completely cultural. You think pink is naturally girly? Originally it was a pastel version of red, a boys color while blue stood for the Virgin Mary. In some cultures men were considered powerful because they are emotional, which is why ancient works had many crying men. Women were considered cold and rational.

Many ancient cultures stressed homosexuality as part of manhood. Alexander the Great may have married several women, but stressed his love for men. Samurais were often homoerotic, and even the Theban band was a famous for being a great powerful group of soldiers made entirely of gay men.

What is feminine and masculine is dependent on things entirely separate from sex. That many are raised to act that way or associate or the fact that people are naturally that way. 50 years ago, many things we point to and say "gay" about was considered the sure signs of a ladies man makes my point. Some people, like me, are raised separate from a social obligation so I can be generally boggled about what is feminine/masculine.

When guys act super masculine, I am flabbergasted anyone would act in such a way. On the other hand, the idea of women shaving seems so ludicrous, (something I wasnt introduced to until I was 16) that I feel it was invented by another society. Because we put things in boxes people fit those boxes than reality will have you believe. Trying to fit others in your boxes, and redefine them on your terms is one of the most pompous things I can imagine.

[Vapaa]

I don't really think blatant was the word I was looking for when she so sweetly said that it was cold in her tent where she actually meant that she would like to bang the warden right now.

 

What it typically female about it, is not being as blunt about it. I am sure I have written an assignment on communication somewhere, it is, however, danish so translating it will most likelly be problematic.

 

All I can really say is that it is typical for females to wrap what they actually want to say, again, using Morrigan. Where someone who is male will typically be far more blatant about it, asking if she want to come home with him and have some fun. Then a female, like Morrigan, would mention that their tent is cold, which could possibly lead to various answers, and it did, such as, should I get you another blanket? It wasn't really blatant that Morrigan wanted, was sex, and it is typically females to do something like this. Again.... exceptions exist.

 

 

Which part?

 

Females typically showing more empathy, care, gentleness, all these kinds of more soothing emotions. I would be so bold as to say that it is in our biology, I am not sure what others are taught when it comes to biology, the human brain and general communication, it could be very different and I would like to add that the grades we get here in Denmark is not necessarily the highest on a global level, so I could be absolutely ignorant for all we know.

 

The thing with gay and bisexual people being having more feminine traits than masculine traits however, is what I have experienced so far.

 

So I'm gay then ?

[Mockingword]

They are as real as the PC in the context of the world. I really do loathe the whole Schrondinger's Sextoy thing on so many levels. It's called that because the companions can be anything until you open the box.

It's called that because people who are opposed to equality for marginalised gamers try to paint its advocates as sexual deviants who use the games as masturbation fuel, and for no other purpose.

[Cankiie]

So I'm gay then ?

 

Not necessarily. I think I've said it once, but there is a reason why I use words such as 'typical' 'tend to' 'often' and that is because there is always exceptions to the rules when discussing anything that have with people to do.

 

Nontheless, I guess there is nothing to it but to admit that my logic definently is flawed. Although I never directly disagreed with the notion that a gay or bisexual male could indeed be masculine.

 

But yes, my thoughts on the gay and bisexual community are probably, most likely, largely flawed.