2138 réponses à ce sujet

[lane]

Plenty of people resisting the inclusion of homosexual romances purely on the basis of them being homosexual romances.

 

The issue comes from "who is typically advantaged?"  Asking for a heterosexual romance is a bit like asking for graphics.  It's fine to say it, but does it really need to be said?  You're not a bigot for asking for it.

 

 

 

It's important to always remember this whenever you see some person coming in disparaging people because they would hesitate buying the game because of a lack of homosexual romances.  This happens all the time.

 

When I say I'd be more inclined to have exclusively homosexual relationships,* it's more in response to people that feel that homosexuals shouldn't bother asking for content they'd like, because the game is more than romances.

 

 

* I'm also not in control of who does or does not get romances.  I'm also someone that is fine without romance content, so if I lost heterosexual romances I wouldn't consider it that much of a personal loss - so it's easier for me to give them up.

add to the fact that still i think the lgbt doesnt speak much or out loud of what they want to make the companies react ! am really welcoming the progress dragon age have done !! seriously your coworkers have surely made a dream come true for some ,or at least made a bit of their fantasy come true ! i feel really glad to have registred in the site to post my little request ,it was the least i could do to at least speak out loud that yes ,there are here who like homosexual relationships in their games and want more mooore of it cause they love i t!! i didnt thought there would be so many that would welcome it ! as i said ,since the lgbt gamers doesnt speak much about what they wish to see in their games ! they just play the rest of the games like the rest of the guys who always get to play the typical dark cloudy hero who fight for his woman or get a kiss for saving the girlfriend in the end ,and wishing deep inside if only the heros they reincarnate were truly like them ,cause after all gamers always create this kind of a bond with the character they reincarnate ,playing a fantasy or living the adventure like their own ,(after all thats what games are for ! to take us into a fantasy dream of being a hero or to live a uncommon adventure) ,cause yes am still waiting for this badass game where the hero would be gay or at least you get to choose his sexuality before strarting .  Does it sound a bit odd or too much to realise ? i don't know ,but i'll keep faith cause after all ,i still got a totally gay character the discover and romance for the next game !! i really really hope its gonna be an unique experience !! it has to be since its totally unique in itself ! and so my thedas gonna have a gay savior who's gonna grab his boyfriend by the wait and kiss him deeply when the bad guy gonna fall  >;D and thats how you win fans for life bioware ! for making us live a truly fantasy ! 

[oceanicsurvivor]

add to the fact that still i think the lgbt doesnt speak much or out loud of what they want to make the companies react ! am really welcoming the progress dragon age have done !! seriously your coworkers have surely made a dream come true for some ,or at least made a bit of their fantasy come true ! i feel really glad to have registred in the site to post my little request ,it was the least i could do to at least speak out loud that yes ,there are here who like homosexual relationships in their games and want more mooore of it cause they love i t!! i didnt thought there would be so many that would welcome it ! as i said ,since the lgbt gamers doesnt speak much about what they wish to see in their games ! they just play the rest of the games like the rest of the guys who always get to play the typical dark cloudy hero who fight for his woman or get a kiss for saving the girlfriend in the end ,and wishing deep inside if only the heros they reincarnate were truly like them ,cause after all gamers always create this kind of a bond with the character they reincarnate ,playing a fantasy or living the adventure like their own ,(after all thats what games are for ! to take us into a fantasy dream of being a hero or to live a uncommon adventure) ,cause yes am still waiting for this badass game where the hero would be gay or at least you get to choose his sexuality before strarting .  Does it sound a bit odd or too much to realise ? i don't know ,but i'll keep faith cause after all ,i still got a totally gay character the discover and romance for the next game !! i really really hope its gonna be an unique experience !! it has to be since its totally unique in itself ! and so my thedas gonna have a gay savior who's gonna grab his boyfriend by the wait and kiss him deeply when the bad guy gonna fall  >;D and thats how you win fans for life bioware ! for making us live a truly fantasy ! 

 

I...I didn't want to say anything. But I take a lot of issue with this idea that LGBT gamers aren't doing enough. This and countless other threads about similar issues have had LGBT gamer after gamer expressing their desire to see representation of themselves, sharing personal stories and pain, and generally baring their soul in an attempt to get through to people. Like...LGBT advocacy is certainly present here and elsewhere throughout the gaming industry despite the fact that there is such vile backlash to the idea of inclusiveness in most of the online gaming community (here, things are pretty pleasant for which I'm extremely grateful).

[daveliam]

I...I didn't want to say anything. But I take a lot of issue with this idea that LGBT gamers aren't doing enough. This and countless other threads about similar issues have had LGBT gamer after gamer expressing their desire to see representation of themselves, sharing personal stories and pain, and generally baring their soul in an attempt to get through to people. Like...LGBT advocacy is certainly present here and elsewhere throughout the gaming industry despite the fact that there is such vile backlash to the idea of inclusiveness in most of the online gaming community (here, things are pretty pleasant for which I'm extremely grateful).

 

We are damned if we do; damned if we don't.  If we don't vocalize what we want, then people say that we're just a minority and that's the reason why we don't get content "for us".  If we do vocalize what we want, we're now a "vocal minority" who is trying to force our "agenda" into games. 

 

We just can't win. 

[ElitePinecone]

Speaking out can be effective, though - and I'd much rather be accused of being too vocal, than for studios and publishers to think the status quo is somehow acceptable. Expressing an opinion on a forum is nothing more and nothing less than what people do here every day about a thousand other topics, including hetero romances - why should we self-censor discussion of LGBT stuff?

 

(After all, people screaming about a vocal minority forcing an agenda down their throats are idiots anyway. Screw them, and why should we let their opinions matter?)

 

At least in ME's case, advocating for more same-sex options was successful. It played some role, whether small or large, in getting the studio to reconsider what it was doing for ME3. I don't want to pretend that threads on the BSN like Fight for the Love were a major part of that, but the fact that people were expressing clear dissatisfaction with what had happened in the first two games was a fairly constant reminder of the need to do better. The threads did stick around for years (through *much* worse opposition than DA ever received), and I like to think it was at least noticed by somebody. ME3 wasn't perfect, but it was better.

[Felya87]

Poor Shep not getting oral.

I'll call it a win, seeing Garrus mouth...

still my favourite romance in ME, but creepy in some aspect, I admit 

[AkiKishi]

 

(After all, people screaming about a vocal minority forcing an agenda down their throats are idiots anyway. Screw them, and why should we let their opinions matter?)

 

 

 

That works both ways. 

[WildOrchid]

I'll call it a win, seeing Garrus mouth...

 

True, all these teeth and jawbones...

[Caligula]

That works both ways. 

 

What do you mean?

[AkiKishi]

What do you mean?

 

I mean that no one is going to support your agenda if your an ass about it. If you say their opinions don't matter why should they care about yours?

 

If it came down to either or, then we all know which way Bioware would go because its the only thing that makes good business sense.Dragon Age is of a high enough rating that including gay characters is not really an issue. 

 

On the other hand I do take exception at the whole everyones got to have the same content thing. Content should be according to the integrity of the worth of Thedas, not real world social politics. 

[ElitePinecone]

I mean that no one is going to support your agenda if your an ass about it. If you say their opinions don't matter why should they care about yours?

 

If it's seen as a zero-sum issue, then I'll treat it as a zero-sum issue. I can't compromise with people who say any same-sex content in the game shouldn't be there, and who speak about the topic with something close to hysteria. If a person's starting position uses words like "pandering", "social justice warriors" or "inclusiveness crusaders", then their opinion really, genuinely, seriously doesn't matter.

 

If people who don't like that content can present their thoughts in a calm and rational way, there is room for discussion. Otherwise, no, I'm certainly not in the mood to listen to people ranting just because they feel entitled to blurt their opinions everywhere. 

[daveliam]

I mean that no one is going to support your agenda if your an ass about it. If you say their opinions don't matter why should they care about yours?

 

If it came down to either or, then we all know which way Bioware would go because its the only thing that makes good business sense.Dragon Age is of a high enough rating that including gay characters is not really an issue. 

 

On the other hand I do take exception at the whole everyones got to have the same content thing. Content should be according to the integrity of the worth of Thedas, not real world social politics. 

 

Well then, I guess I'm glad about two things:  The first, that it's not down to an "either or" thing.  And the second, that Bioware doesn't view inclusivity as damaging to the "integrity" of the game. 

[AkiKishi]

Well then, I guess I'm glad about two things:  The first, that it's not down to an "either or" thing.  And the second, that Bioware doesn't view inclusivity as damaging to the "integrity" of the game. 

 

Well they pick and choose.For instance when it came to asians they played the "Thedas does not have asians" card. Earlier in the thread when someone asked about black people, Dave Gaider gave a sermon about how would it be if all games you played ..blah..blah..blah. With no mention of the game world at all.

[Fast Jimmy]

Well they pick and choose.For instance when it came to asians they played the "Thedas does not have asians" card. Earlier in the thread when someone asked about black people, Dave Gaider gave a sermon about how would it be if all games you played ..blah..blah..blah. With no mention of the game world at all.

You are misrepresenting a quote I included yesterday from a conversation Gaider had over two years ago. He did not, in any way, say "it would be great to have blacks everywhere but Asians are just SOL" like the above statement seemed to imply. The setting could allow for a majority-black cast if it took place in Rivain or with mostly Rivani NPC's. Gaider doesn't need to say "the setting justifies it" because it is already accepted as a given.

And this really doesn't come into play at all in this discussion, as the lore has been stated that hetero, ****** and bisexual relationships are not taboo in Thedas. So the lore doesn't need to bend or break on having more of these types of sexualities, which is not the case with races and appearances that have never been shown, discussed or mentioned in the lore before.


Personally, this is a big part of the reason I think a focus (or even the presence) of romances is a bad idea, as it gets tangled up in the concepts of real world sexuality all too easily. And people develop unhealthy attitudes and mindsets towards the characters, the developers and each other because of it.

[Lady Nuggins]

I mean that no one is going to support your agenda if your an ass about it. If you say their opinions don't matter why should they care about yours?

 

This is a huge derailing argument that people use all the time.  "I would support you, but you didn't ask nice enough."  How about supporting representation because it's the right thing to do?

 

Dragon Age already includes gay and bisexual characters.  It already has a reputation for this inclusiveness.  The people who are so homophobic that they cannot bring themselves to pick up a title that is associated with queerness in any way are probably already turned away.  The "damage" has been done. 

[daveliam]

This is a huge derailing argument that people use all the time.  "I would support you, but you didn't ask nice enough."  How about supporting representation because it's the right thing to do?

 

Dragon Age already includes gay and bisexual characters.  It already has a reputation for this inclusiveness.  The people who are so homophobic that they cannot bring themselves to pick up a title that is associated with queerness in any way are probably already turned away.  The "damage" has been done. 

 

Exactly.  Just being exposed to gay content in a game shouldn't be a deal breaker for anyone.  No Bioware game has forced you to engage in a gay relationship.  The closest that you come is to have a male character hit on you, which you can turn down. 

 

I would love for a mainstream game to have a gay protagonist as the only playable character.  It would be even better if there was a romance subplot to the game (even it's just tangential).  It's never been done as far as I know.  However, that's not the case with Bioware games.  They have gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered NPCs, bisexual companions, the ability to play as a gay character if you choose, and optional s/s romances if you choose.  None of that should be a deal breaker for anyone.  And if it is, Bioware is probably better off without them in the long run.

[mikeymoonshine]

If it's seen as a zero-sum issue, then I'll treat it as a zero-sum issue. I can't compromise with people who say any same-sex content in the game shouldn't be there, and who speak about the topic with something close to hysteria. If a person's starting position uses words like "pandering", "social justice warriors" or "inclusiveness crusaders", then their opinion really, genuinely, seriously doesn't matter.

 

If people who don't like that content can present their thoughts in a calm and rational way, there is room for discussion. Otherwise, no, I'm certainly not in the mood to listen to people ranting just because they feel entitled to blurt their opinions everywhere. 

 

Some of these people can be convinced though and to be perfectly honest I really can't stand SJW's either, i mean that term is used to describe people who don't present their thoughts in a calm and rational way. 

 

 

Sometimes someone who seems like a lost cause can come around if you approach them with respect and kindness.

[In Exile]

Personally, this is a big part of the reason I think a focus (or even the presence) of romances is a bad idea, as it gets tangled up in the concepts of real world sexuality all too easily. And people develop unhealthy attitudes and mindsets towards the characters, the developers and each other because of it.

 

And this is part of why I think it's a good idea: because it outs IRL bigots. If it every game had a romance, and the end result was that such people avoid videogames as a whole, everyone would be better off for it. 

 

The same if having different ethnicities in a medieval setting got rid of the IRL racists, or having women in position of power got rid of IRL sexists. 

These are groups whose interest should not only not be taken into account, but actively undermined so far as possible without actually causing too much financial damage to the company to the extent that they're still part of the market. 

[JadePrince]

Some of these people can be convinced though and to be perfectly honest I really can't stand SJW's either, i mean that term is used to describe people who don't present their thoughts in a calm and rational way. 

 

 

Sometimes someone who seems like a lost cause can come around if you approach them with respect and kindness.

 

Someone who says "I'd support you if only you were nicer!" is LYING. It wouldn't matter HOW you approached them. That's the kind of person who's mind is made up already.

 

If a black person or a gay person has to always talk with sweetness and niceties to be able to receive basic human rights or respect, then that's a problem. And if I'm talking to a homophobe-- especially someone who is outspoken about how gross they find my relationship-- then no amount of sweettalking is going to change their mind.

 

Shouting/anger might not change their mind either, but it does get stuff done on a larger scale (protests, demonstrations, etc). Also, in my experience, good people who are just genuinely ignorant or who don't get it, are more likely to get (and not forget) it if I'm ACTUALLY UPSET and they can really see that, than if I pussyfoot around and say things like "nono, it's okay, i'm not angry, but I wish maybe you wouldn't say things like that, please, thank you."

 

More On Topic:

 

I really really hope that whoever ends up being gay or bi in this game, they are required recruits and you can't just kill/ignore them offhand like you could with Zevran, Leliana and Fenris. Any time I see a straight guy talk about how he always kills Zevran without ever recruiting him, I tend to flinch a little, wondering what the reason they do that is.

[In Exile]

 

I would love for a mainstream game to have a gay protagonist as the only playable character.  It would be even better if there was a romance subplot to the game (even it's just tangential).  It's never been done as far as I know.  However, that's not the case with Bioware games.  They have gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered NPCs, bisexual companions, the ability to play as a gay character if you choose, and optional s/s romances if you choose.  None of that should be a deal breaker for anyone.  And if it is, Bioware is probably better off without them in the long run.

 

One day, IMO, series like Stark Trek will just admit that their lead protagonists (e.g. Kirk and Spock) are completely and totally in love with one another. Once we see that in major motion pictures, video games, which absolutely tarry on the progressiveness scale by a decade, will see that sort of inclusion as well. 

[AkiKishi]

 

More On Topic:

 

I really really hope that whoever ends up being gay or bi in this game, they are required recruits and you can't just kill/ignore them offhand like you could with Zevran, Leliana and Fenris. Any time I see a straight guy talk about how he always kills Zevran without ever recruiting him, I tend to flinch a little, wondering what the reason they do that is.

 

Zevron was not introduced in the most amiable manner. In fact many people killed him off before even realising he was a potential party member. 

[JadePrince]

Zevron was not introduced in the most amiable manner. In fact many people killed him off before even realising he was a potential party member. 

 

Sure, but after you play the game once, read any articles or gameguides, or interact with the fanbase at all, you realize he was a recruitable party member. That's why I said "ALWAYS kill him". I get if you kill him the first time, because that's probably the first instinct a lot of players have. But if you kill him everytime, that tells me that you want to avoid having him around. 

 

Also, I think the fact that the only character available for m/m romance IS introduced in such a way actually was the first problem. The fact that he and Leliana (the non-straight options) were either easily missable or easily killable before recruitment, while Morrigan and Alistair (the straight characters) are automatic and required recruits is questionable.

 

At least in DA2, Anders was tied up in the larger story so you couldn't just kill/ignore him at the offset. That was an improvement over DAO, I think.

 

TLDR; I hope the LGB characters in DA:I aren't so easily skippable. I don't believe in giving homophobic players an easy out to avoid the things they think are icky.

[daveliam]

 

Also, I think the fact that the only character available for m/m romance IS introduced in such a way actually was the first problem. The fact that he and Leliana (the non-straight options) were either easily missable or easily killable before recruitment, while Morrigan and Alistair (the straight characters) are automatic and required recruits is questionable.

 

At least in DA2, Anders was tied up in the larger story so you couldn't just kill/ignore him at the offset. That was an improvement over DAO, I think.

 

TLDR; I hope the LGB characters in DA:I aren't so easily skippable. I don't believe in giving homophobic players an easy out to avoid the things they think are icky.

 

It's the same thing with the only m/m flirt option in swtor too.  That being said, I don't think it's intentional.  Or, at least, I chose to think it's not intentional.

[AkiKishi]

 

 

TLDR; I hope the LGB characters in DA:I aren't so easily skippable. I don't believe in giving homophobic players an easy out to avoid the things they think are icky.

 

I disagree since I don't see that as Biowares business to push any agenda onto a paying customer. I do prefer defined characters though and Zevron was pretty interesting. Lots of people complained about getting ninjamanced because his intro line could be misunderstood. 

 

I think forced stuff like Anders is really cheap. Bad writing if there is no other alternative to getting to the end of the story.

[Aimi]

I would love for a mainstream game to have a gay protagonist as the only playable character.  It would be even better if there was a romance subplot to the game (even it's just tangential).  It's never been done as far as I know.

In the 2013 Tomb Raider game, you play as a lesbian woman trying to rescue her damsel in distress.

[JadePrince]

I disagree since I don't see that as Biowares business to push any agenda onto a paying customer. I do prefer defined characters though and Zevron was pretty interesting. Lots of people complained about getting ninjamanced because his intro line could be misunderstood. 

 

I think forced stuff like Anders is really cheap. Bad writing if there is no other alternative to getting to the end of the story.

 

I don't think of it as pushing an agenda any more than every other game with straight romances and straight characters is pushing a heterosexual agenda. 

 

Just give me equal treatment. If you're gonna let the player kill off characters before even recruiting them, at least don't make all of them the gay/bi ones. I don't think that's much to ask, and I don't see that as forcing an agenda. :/