2138 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

But this is not at all what I suggested.

The toggle proposed would strictly affect how the NPCs interact with the character, not their very existence. The toggle proposed would just prevent any same sex (or, conversely, opposite sex if the player is so inclined ) romances from being initiated. It does not delete any such characters from the game entirely, like your race toggle implies. So the two ideas are apples and oranges in comparison.

 

Not sure if the benefit is worth the cost.  Setting this up, and the additional scripting and so forth, may not be worth it.  Especially if the existence of this ends up getting construed as allowing erasure, in which case people may not buy the game because they find it disrespectful.

 

Some people get really upset, but I'm not sure if it's significant enough to warrant extra work on our part to allow people to insulate themselves from the content.

[Lady Nuggins]

Well, look at it this way then. In the real world, there are people who are sexually ambiguous. They've never been in a relationship so you can't tell what they like. Even that person doesn't know what they like but know they aren't asexual. Merrill is an ingame version of that. 

 

I think the confusion with playersexual comes from people having different definitions for it. Some see it as "The player interprets the character's sexuality" while others see it as "The player determines the character's sexuality". 

 

Maybe to an outsider someone is "sexually ambiguous," but I am willing to bet that those people have at least a rough idea of who they are attracted to.  Nobody hands out a laundry list of what genders they are interested in to every person they meet.  This is my problem with this reasoning: by your definition, I am not bisexual because I have only had one relationship, and it was with a man.  What I like and feel does not matter, only my history.  Virgins have sexual desires.  They have wants.  They know (or at least have an idea of) what they like.  If Merrill is willing to be with a Hawke of either gender, then Merrill always had the potential desire to be with either gender, romanced or not.

 

Maybe it is incorrect to apply the label of "bisexual" to Merrill because we don't know what she self-identifies as.  Maybe she's pansexual.  Maybe she's just experimenting.  But it's the most simple label to use based on evidence.

[JadePrince]

^ Even aside from the heart icons, in something like Mass Effect's case the romances with Samantha and Steve were already "guarded" by two or three layers of dialogue choices. Steve's gave the character multiple escape routes, like the option to straight-up say they were only interested in the female dancers.

 

You had to be really unsubtle about wanting to romance them to be able to do so. When the writing is that careful (even deliberately as unambiguous as possible), what danger is there of 'ninjamances', or being propositioned? 

 

I think what I'm figuring out is that these guys don't want to have to even KNOW that any of the male companions might be interested in them. It's not about there being no option to reject them (because there is). It's about straight guys finding it uncomfortable and icky to even KNOW that a gay/bi male might be thinking about them IN THAT WAY. *spooky wiggle fingers*

[WildOrchid]

I do not, and have never, understood the idea of lesbians being as source of sexual desire. Two beautiful women who have absolutely no interest in having sex with me isn't arousing, it's kind of depressing. The fantasy seems to be about bisexual girls. 

 

Sadly, most men don't take lesbians seriously and they think it's a 'phase that will pass when they find the right dude'... and they also think that if you manage to bed a lesbian then you are considered 'the best lover that can even turn lesbians straight' and this.... arouse some straight dudebros.

 

The amount of times i've been told 'can i watch' or 'can i play too' is endless, after of course i told them i have no interest in them... it very well proves they don't take our sexuality seriously because duh, only sex with a dude is considered 'real'. *eye roll x4*

And i'm sure many, many lesbians can tell you their experiences with stupid dudebros.

 

 

So yes, lesbians are a source of sexual desire and a big one i can assure you.

[jlb524]

Wait, what was this Zevran controversy?  He'll stop flirting if the Warden tells him that s/he's not interested.

 

idk, I've only ever been ninjamanced by Alistair.

[Ryzaki]

Wait, what was this Zevran controversy?  He'll stop flirting if the Warden tells him that s/he's not interested.

 

Some one who apparently couldn't read or listen took Zevran's "if the opportunity to move beyond a massage presents itself." dialogue and was shocked and appalled that the gay romance scene played.

 

I of course LMAO cause that scene couldn't be more obvious if he flat out screamed I WANT SEXY TIMES AFTERWARDS KTHX.

[kalasaurus]

idk, I've only ever been ninjamanced by Alistair.

 

Yeah, looking at the wiki, there are a few not-so-clear romance starting dialogues for Alistair.  "I like you, and not just because of your blood" could be interpreted as just liking him as a friend and for who he is beyond his royal blood, rather than any romantic interest, for example.

[Abelas Forever!]

So I think that my points have been made by other people, but since Fast Jimmy had asked me specifically why I used the phrase "offensive", I figured I would chime in.  Feel free to ignore me if you think it's been done to death.  Anyway, here goes:

 

I think a "sexuality toggle" is offensive (and I actually do mean that word) because it renders LGB individuals sexless..... again.  We have long been stereotyped in media and, for gay men (I'll speak just about men as I draw from my own experiences and I'll allow a bisexual or lesbian woman to cover her perspective if she chooses to do so), the most common stereotypes are:  sexual predator and asexual flamboyant comic relief.  Those have been, historically, the only representations of gay men.  It's really only a very, very recent thing to show gay men in healthy consenting adult relationships.  It is terrible for the psyche of a young gay boy (I knew I was gay in elementary school) to only see your sexual orientation in negative portrayals without any positive counterpart.

 

The "sexuality toggle" is only being put forward by people who are uncomfortable with having people of the same sex (I haven't seen anyone promote it because of discomfort with opposite sex flirting) flirt with them.  Note, it's just flirting that we are talking about.  Not engaging in sexual contact with a person of the same sex.  We've seen words like "revolting", "repulsive", and "disgusting" used just in the past two days to describe people's reactions to s/s content.  It's not coming from a place of love.  These people are so uncomfortable by s/s content that would rather block that content from even being presented.  It's offensive because a s/s person who flirts with you is just acting like a regular person.  People flirt.  Most people flirt.  It's not abnormal. 

 

To say that same-sex people who flirt are making you uncomfortable is fine.  You don't have to be comfortable with everything you encounter.  However that doesn't give you the right to block yourself from ever being exposed to s/s people who are acting like normal, regular, sexualized adults.  It goes back to making LGB individuals being simply sexless.  They can't express any sexual interest in you or they become silenced.  It can't be removed from the social and political context  that we live in because life doesn't work like that.  Putting this in makes me offended as if the fact that if I were to flirt with you in real life, your instinct would be to "silence me".  That's what I find offensive about it.  People get flirted with all the time.  Most people reject the person and just move on if they aren't interested.

 

Just note, I find this completely different than a "turn romances off" toggle.  That kind of toggle is a "gameplay" toggle.  It's like turning off friendly fire.  It's saying, effectively, "I don't want access to this optional access of the gameplay mechanics".  That's completely different from saying, "I want access, but only to those people whose gender I am attracted to".  To me, that's really not acceptable. 

I'm not supporting the sexuality toggle thing but I wanted to say that it could be also used to make straight characters gay so if someone don't want to see straight characters in a game then they can also change their sexuality.

[ElitePinecone]

We are just discussing it rather than advocating it. If no Zevron,Anders controversy arises from DA:I then it won't likely be an issue. If on the other hand it does, a toggle might be an elegant and easy solution to the problem of unwanted romances.

 

As I said a big part of what people on the boards take for granted is they know the LI's in advance. The vast majority of people who play the game will not. 

 

How is a toggle an elegant solution to people getting upset about an NPC-initiated romance?

 

If anything the easiest solution is just to no longer do NPC-initiated romances, or remove the rivalry points associated with it.

 

Proposing a toggle that removes same-sex content entirely is like amputating your leg because you stubbed your toe.

 

Besides, the devs have already said DA:I will feature lesbian and gay characters (possibly even trans characters) who may discuss relationships in the context of their stories even if it's not with the player-character. If they're not propositioning the Inquisitor, and people *still* complain about them, then the only appropriate response is "suck it up, homophobes". 

[jlb524]

Yeah, looking at the wiki, there are a few not-so-clear romance starting dialogues for Alistair.  "I like you, and not just because of your blood" could be interpreted as just liking him as a friend and for who he is beyond his royal blood, rather than any romantic interest, for example.

 

I think that was the line I selected.

 

This apparently meant my Warden was in love with him, which were the words Leliana screamed at her afterwards XD

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Sadly, most men don't take lesbians seriously and they think it's a 'phase that will pass when they find the right dude'... and they also think that if you manage to bed a lesbian then you are considered 'the best lover that can even turn lesbians straight' and this.... arouse some straight dudebros.
 
The amount of times i've been told 'can i watch' or 'can i play too' is endless, after of course i told them i have no interest in them... it very well proves they don't take our sexuality seriously because duh, only sex with a dude is considered 'real'. *eye roll x4*
And i'm sure many, many lesbians can tell you their experiences with stupid dudebros.
 
 
So yes, lesbians are a source of sexual desire and a big one i can assure you.

Yeah, the amount of guys that have attempted to "turn me straight" would probably shock some people is as annoying as people thinking im a wh*re just cos of my bisexuality

[JadePrince]

Some final thoughts on why a gay toggle would be offensive to me (and then I swear, I'm done with this, hahaha....):

 

As a society we have a history of being more comfortable either ignoring gay people, or at most, thinking of them as sexually neutered. This is why you'll often see just one gay character (instead of a gay relationship) in a piece of media because they're no 'threat' so long as the viewer/player doesn't have to think of them as a sexual being who might hit on them. Putting in a toggle to de-activate potential s/s interest from companions is just another way of saying: "I'm FINE with gay people, so long as they don't shove it down my throat." I bet you can guess how tired LGBT folks are of hearing that one.

 

PS. Isn't it funny how straight men are SO TERRIFIED of the thought of having to experience exactly the thing they do to women all the time? Unasked/unwelcome flirting isn't even a thing when it's from a straight man to a woman. But heaven forbid a gay man express interest in you! *rolls eyes hard*

[ElitePinecone]

Also, how has this discussion not yet convinced you that a toggle would be neither classy nor elegant? 

 

When Little Billy opens up their new Dragon Age game and is immediately confronted with:

 

"PICK SEXUAL ORIENTATION:

 

STRAIGHT 

SAME-SEX

BISEXUAL"

 

... in the character creation screen, are we expected to believe ~people~ won't freak out? 

 

It's about the least classy way to handle romances in games that I can think of. 

 

Bioware's current system of having to talk to people first at least resembles something organic. 

[kalasaurus]

I think that was the line I selected.

 

This apparently meant my Warden was in love with him, which were the words Leliana screamed at her afterwards XD

 

Leliana: "YOU LOVE ALISTAIR!!!" 

Warden: "Huh, what!?!"

Leliana: "Why is it you always feign ignorance!?!?"

Warden (unspoken): "Because I have no idea what you're talking about." 

 

That reminds me of a thread I read where they picked the wrong line when giving Duncan's shield to Alistair, and next thing at camp he's insisting they have sex together

[Nefla]

I don't get the desire for a toggle. If a straight guy is weirded out by a gay guy flirting with them, they can just decline. Trust me, women have to go through being hit on by men who are actually creepy and gross all the time in real life. Someone saying to you "Under that scruffy exterior, I think you've got a bit of a soft heart, yourself." or being called handsome freak you out...that's laughable quite frankly. If some guy I have no desire to date says something politely flirtatious like the guys in DA have I just politely turn them down, I don't flip my lid and wish they didn't exist.

[Ryzaki]

I don't get the desire for a toggle. If a straight guy is weirded out by a gay guy flirting with them, they can just decline. Trust me, women have to go through being hit on by men who are actually creepy and gross all the time in real life. Someone saying to you "Under that scruffy exterior, I think you've got a bit of a soft heart, yourself." or being called handsome freak you out...that's laughable quite frankly. If some guy I have no desire to date says something politely flirtatious like the guys in DA have I just politely turn them down, I don't flip my lid and wish they didn't exist.

 

This. And what boggles me is these often times the exact same dudes who go to women "oh get over how is someone supposed to know you're interested unless they hit on you."

 

The mind BOGGLES. Really it does.

[JadePrince]

When Little Billy opens up their new Dragon Age game and is immediately confronted with:

 

"PICK SEXUAL ORIENTATION:

 

STRAIGHT 

SAME-SEX

BISEXUAL"

 

... in the character creation screen, are we expected to believe ~people~ won't freak out? 

 

It's about the least classy way to handle romances in games that I can think of. 

 

Bioware's current system of having to talk to people first at least resembles something organic. 

 

Oh wow, it didn't actually occur to me, but ironically, the conservatives would probably MORE upset then us, if they saw Bioware handling the romances with a toggle like this. "How dare you so blatantly tell my child it's okay for him to be GAY in your game!" 

[wolfhowwl]

I didn't want a gay toggle for Anders.

I wanted a whiny terrorist loser toggle.

[Char]

I don't get the desire for a toggle. If a straight guy is weirded out by a gay guy flirting with them, they can just decline. Trust me, women have to go through being hit on by men who are actually creepy and gross all the time in real life. Someone saying to you "Under that scruffy exterior, I think you've got a bit of a soft heart, yourself." or being called handsome freak you out...that's laughable quite frankly. If some guy I have no desire to date says something politely flirtatious like the guys in DA have I just politely turn them down, I don't flip my lid and wish they didn't exist.

I'm not going to lie, I'm usually flattered by the interest, and consequently I let people know politely that unfortunately I don't return it. There are very few situations where I've ever been grossed out by someone attempting to flirt with me, and both involved rather unhygienic men over the age of 50. One of them didn't really flirt as such, he just sat down blocking my exit and told me he was going to buy me a drink and I was going to sleep with him in payment. He had no teeth to speak of and made my skin crawl- and I still said "no thank you, I'm engaged" politely and sat there like a frozen rabbit until my fiance rescued me 

[Nefla]

This. And what boggles me is these often times the exact same dudes who go to women "oh get over how is someone supposed to know you're interested unless they hit on you."

 

The mind BOGGLES. Really it does.

Ugh I know right?  Not to be offensive but out-of-touch nerds are the worst. They have no concept of boundries and their idea of flirtation isn't "I think you're beautiful and interesting and want to get to know you better" it's well come to think of it it's nothing I should repeat here!

[jlb524]

Leliana: "YOU LOVE ALISTAIR!!!" 

Warden: "Huh, what!?!"

Leliana: "Why is it you always feign ignorance!?!?"

Warden (unspoken): "Because I have no idea what you're talking about." 

 

 

Yeah basically that.

 

It was so funny b/c first Alistair is trying to give my Warden a rose at camp within earshot of her gf (who was apparently eavesdropping on the whole thing).

 

Why the hell is she yelling at me and not Alistair?

[WildOrchid]

PS. Isn't it funny how straight men are SO TERRIFIED of the thought of having to experience exactly the thing they do to women all the time?

 

Shhh, don't wake them up.

[ElitePinecone]

Oh wow, it didn't actually occur to me, but ironically, the conservatives would probably MORE upset then us, if they saw Bioware handling the romances with a toggle like this. "How dare you so blatantly tell my child it's okay for him to be GAY in your game!" 

 

One can imagine the headlines, yes. Not just that it makes the game's s/s content more prominent, but that it's literally one of the first things you see when opening the game and making a character.

 

"New game allows children to choose the gay lifestyle!" 

 

The hysteria around SWTOR was bad enough, and that - hilariously - never ended up having much same-sex content anyway. It's been three years and I'm still waiting. 

[kalasaurus]

I'm not going to lie, I'm usually flattered by the interest, and consequently I let people know politely that unfortunately I don't return it. There are very few situations where I've ever been grossed out by someone attempting to flirt with me, and both involved rather unhygienic men over the age of 50. One of them didn't really flirt as such, he just sat down blocking my exit and told me he was going to buy me a drink and I was going to sleep with him in payment. He had no teeth to speak of and made my skin crawl- and I still said "no thank you, I'm engaged" politely and sat there like a frozen rabbit until my fiance rescued me 

 

Yeah, I usually don't mind when people show interest in me but I have pretended not to be able to speak English before when some man who was easily in his 50's/60's hit on me when I was 19 

[daveliam]

@SilentShadows:

 

I would also think it was wrong if a gay person were on BSN saying how "uncomfortable" they are with "disgusting" displays of o/s sexuality and how they want a toggle to turn that off so they don't have to be exposed to it.  I wouldn't be personally offended (because it wouldn't be about calling me those names), but I would certainly post to say why I think it's wrong. 

 

However, the fact is, that's not the case.  I can only go on what's been presented and what's been presented is the use of a toggle solely to "turn off" s/s flirting.  More specifically, to turn off m/m flirting.  There's a very distinct underlying social and political context that is driving this, whether it's conscious or subconscious (I suspect the latter).  You just can't remove this context from this conversation.