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[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

so much fun  .
 
In my experience clubs that cater to a perceived minority tend to be more fun since less people tend to be dicks cos they know its one of the few bars in town to their tastes.
 
At least that is what I've found in Dublin, for a great night out you need to be in a gay bar, goth/industrial club or a rock bar.

Gaybars can be great, just a shame that i would usually have to travel 20+ miles to visit 1 since the town i live in wouldn't tolerate a bar that catered specifically to LGBT people

[Puppy Love]

Alright since Allan was so open, I'm going to be so as well so I can explain why I feel as I do.  I hope I don't regret this.

 

I'm not just a bisexual woman, well I am, and would really like to be treated as such.  However so we can have a full understanding I'm a transsexual woman and have spent in a way time on both sides of this fence.  For most of my life I attempted (quite poorly I might add) to be a straight white male, it took me a long time to come to terms with who I am, and to start trying to be my real self. 

 

Before I accepted it, and still attempted to identify as a straight white male, I had a lot of strong feelings about people's rights, same as I do today, but always got side tracked because whenever I'd talk about my feelings about things which were an intrinsic part of who I am and made comparisons of such I'd be treated to the same things about my sex and gender somehow making them less important than someone elses because they suffered more than I did when I fully accepted their identity as just as important as mine, if I didn't I wouldn't have compared them to the things I felt were vitally important to me.  These feelings felt like an intrinsic and important part of my being, and being a woman now even with all I've gone through to accept it and try to live it, with all the fear I feel about whether I'll pass, and when I fail what can happen to me (I could go on and on about the injustices and fear I sometimes face everyday, but is not the point)  I feel no less strongly about the things that are a part of my identity now than I did then.

 

So when we do those things, it is natural for a person to feel slighted, to feel like we are treating what's important to them, what's an important part of their being as secondary to our own.  When they attempt to defend what feels to them as just important as what we feel is important to us, and we just tell them, they don't understand, it doesn't compare, is it any wonder they throw up their hands in disgust?  They might honest and truly want to be our friends and believe in equality just as strongly as us, but we won't let them, because we are too concerned with how much more we suffer for our identity. 

 

Does this apply to all?  No, there are lots of men who can see past this, and they, including you Alan, are great for having made that leap.  Can other men do it?  Of course they can, but if they are put on the defensive when trying to understand, well, I know I sometimes do and say things I shouldn't when on the defensive, and I most assuredly do not think rationally when it gets real bad.  It takes strength to take a lashing while accepting the other side really doesn't mean it the way it feels and to not take it personally.  A strength few of us really have.

 

Not only that, but it gives them ammo, gives them excuses to tune us out.  Whenever one of does something like that girl in the tux example, it gives them ammo against us, whenever we do something that makes them feel their not our equal and what's important to them is not important to us, we make it seem like we don't care, and so they can make the excuse of why should I care then, it's obvious you don't care about me.  Is it really a fair comparison?  Not really, I most certainly have to fight harder to be who I am today, and is rare I really was in danger for what was important to me while trying to identify as a straight white male, but there it is.  Would I say I had it easier?  Well yes, minus the depression, and confusion, and denial related to who I really am, but that's unrelated to the straight white male privilege and more to my denying myself. 

 

I've always been a fan of people like Martin Luther King Jr, and Gandhi.  I'm very much a peace and love is how we really make a difference.  That inclusiveness is how we will succeed, by accepting each other, and by trying to bring others over rather than push them away.  By accepting that our identities are equally an important part of each of us regardless of where we come from, and should be approached as such. 

 

When we march peacefully, when we protest peacefully, speaking for equality, speaking for our full rights to live as human beings free from discrimination.  When we do so without using divisive language, when we speak for equality for all.  When we don't try to instigate, or point fingers, when we don't put ourselves on pedastals, but simply demand equality for all, demand that all humans be treated with dignity and respect, we completely take away the bigots ability to really fight back.  If one of us is attacked, and we do not fight back, but run.  Or one of us is arrested wrongly for our peaceful protesting without attacking the cop or calling him names, then we win, because they won't be able to show us doing wrong, and they have no arguments against us and the only wrong is perpetuated by them.  If, however, we throw insults, or provoke, we give them ammunition against us.  If we riot when one of is wronged, we completely muddy the affair, as it becomes people wronging each other.  But when we do it right, when we turn the other cheek and use peace.  Any attempt on their part to argue, or harm us goes right back in their faces because they have no ground to stand on.

 

This is why when I see others doing things I find divisive, I speak up.  Because I feel we're strengthening the opposition when we do.  We're giving them the excuses they need to sit back and do nothing (whether true and fair or not) about the injustices we face.  We make it look to them like we don't want equality, we want to be better than them.  The issue should be about our wanting equal treatment, about wanting all of us to be treated with dignity and respect and not about how much more rights straight white men have then us.  Because frankly playing that game, we can make the same kind of arguments against each other.  None of us are equal on the privilege ladder, some are higher and lower than others.  Which actually can and has been a rift between us, and part of why we're so disorganized and find it difficult to really unite.

 

Because as you said Alan, if enough of us stand up together, we really can change things.  Let's look at the numbers.  The group we're saying has the most privilege is straight white men.  If we take just the women alone, we're technically the majority, add in the different male ethnicities (as women are already included), all the non straight male sexual orientations, and then all the straight white male sympathizers we can find and all demand equal rights together, the miniscule little straight white minority (in comparison to the majority we created) that hasn't joined our side and is left over has no ability to deny us.  Now we can attempt to do this by making it an us verses the straight white male thing, but if we do, how does it really look for the straight white male?  I know if I were still one I'd potentially feel threatened by that.  But by approaching it, without that inference, by avoiding making it about straight white males having more, but us wanting equality for all, there is no threat, some will feel it anyway, but much much less, and any attempt by them to argue will be easily argued against.

 

As for wanting to give us minorities more representation because we do not have enough, that's good and noble, and it can be said without us telling others they're desire for representation means nothing next to ours, by recognizing their desire for representation, and reminding them, that we feel as strongly about getting ours, and we simply do not get enough.

 

Now when they start saying things like, you can have representation, but don't shove it down my throat, that is hostile, and we have every right to say so and question what they mean, and point out when it's a double standard.  We can even be hostile about it.  Though we get further if we don't stoop to their level, and may even make them realize they're being insensitive and a jerk about it because no matter how much they dump on us we treat them with respect.  You must understanding, it's not pandering to them when we treat them with respect, we're taking away their ability to call us hypocrites, or try and make us out to be worse than they are.  We're in control, we have the power when we do that, and it makes every bad thing they do another point against them.  Every time they try to push and bait us into going on the offensive, and we respond with polite calm, we win, and leave them with no recourse but to doubt, and show anyone else observing how bad they are in comparison, so no argument can be made in their favor, and none in disfavor of us.

 

If they make a comparison about something that's important to them to what's important to us, recognize it as such, acknowledge and catch them in their own trap, because the second they compare something intrinsically important to their self identity as equal to something as important to ours, we can then say, so you understand why our not getting this is so important to us.  Like you acknowledge, these things matter to us, and we struggle daily to get even a glimmer of this.  Would you deny us this?   All we ask is a chance to have such representation.  Is better to show them, by acknowledging what's important to them as just as important as what's important to us, and get them to acknowledge through reason without hostility why we deserve this representation, and that it's not an attack against their self identity and it's worth, but a desire for us to have the same so we can stand shoulder to shoulder so both our identities are equal and treated with the same respect.

 

I don't believe in maintaining the status quo, I just disagree on what's the best method to changing it.

 

As a straight white male, it's good for you to remind other straight white males that when we say something that seems and feels demeaning, that we don't really think that way about all straight white males, and remind them that what we say is coming from a source of pain and frustration.  As straight white males, they should recognize such on their own, and those that do deserve an extra amount of respect, because it's hard and often is outside their experience.  But those who don't immediately understand that, but are trying to find their place in this, and feel like their self identity is important aren't the enemy either, and with a gentler push I think more could be friends than enemies.  As such I also feel it's vital that people on our side of the fence extend that olive branch, and make a stand to prevent division where we can, to recognize how what we say comes across to the other side.

 

Is it fair that in a sense it puts a lot more of the work on us, that we more than them have to turn the other cheek?  No it is not, but remember, it's us trying to make a difference, and our rights we are defending and trying to gain.  We stand for equality for all, we are anti-hate and bigotry.  To ask for it, we need to live it as best we can and stamp it out in ourselves as much as we ask them to recognize and change it in themselves.  This is not the same as sitting back and accepting that these things occur.  The last thing I want is for us to be less vocal, for us to not make a stand, to do nothing about the injustices, I just want us to do it in a way that leaves the opposition without a leg to stand on or a finger to point.  The truth is, there's really nothing in it for them to make the first move, we need to make them care, and make them see, because they're too busy living their lives to really see, it does not affect them daily like it does us.  It's not fair, but life is not fair, never has been, and trying to pretend and scream that it should be won't change reality, only action will.  Is unrealistic and silly to expect them to push for our rights and understand our needs entirely on their own, it's not something that they struggle against or notice from day to day.  It's outside their experience.

 

It is as important that straight white men are reminded of our struggle and that we have a long way to go to be equals as it is that they are reminded that we do value them as human beings as deserving of equality as the rest of us, and that no, we do not think their self identity is less important than ours.   It is important they recognize that we are not blaming all of them for the injustices against us, but those amongst them who perpetuate it, as well as those amongst our own that do the same.  It is good when straight white males police their own, and it is good when we police our own, because it shows and reminds both sides, that ultimately we all are in this together.

 

That was long and I'm really sorry about that.  But I just really want it understood where I'm coming from in this.

[upsettingshorts]

I think part of the problem with your thesis, Puppy Love, is that it doesn't seem to recognize exactly what it was Martin Luther King Jr's tactics called for. He wasn't just preaching nonviolence, getting racists to nod along and change their mind. He organized marches of disciplined nonviolent protesters that deliberately targeted some of the most violently racist municipalities, to expose the terror and hatred of the Jim Crow South to the world. 

 

This quote applies -- with little need for qualification -- to your objection to the tensions raised on this forum and elsewhere over these issues:

 

(Source: Letter from a Birmingham Jail, MLK Jr.)

 

Nothing ever worth changing was ever changed quietly, to a society full of gradually accepting people warmly turned to the light. In any case, we can't just take the example of the Civil Rights movement, excise MLK Jr from it as the most palatable figure, and pretend more radical contributions of others weren't crucial. They were then, they are now. There is no Gandhi without the Sepoy Rebellion. 

 

So I must respectfully disagree, at least in part. Those who object to inclusivity in media, and social justice, do not need ammunition from anyone to fire back from their entrenched reactionary positions.

[Puppy Love]

I never said anything about changing it quietly.  Peace marching in hostile neighborhoods is the exact kind of action I believe in.  The goal is to make those who are against us the bad guys, and make the world see, and by doing so deny the moderates ability to deny us.  It's by not becoming the bad guys, but exposing those who are to the world.  This is done by providing a LOUD peaceful contrast to bigotry and hatred of those that oppose us.

 

Stop saying I'm asking for inaction and pay attention to what I'm saying.  I'm calling for us to be out there, to be in people faces, and to make the bigots have to face us, and when we do, make sure they're the only one coming out looking like the bad guys.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Thats a very long post to sort through, but, regardless of that, thank you for opening up on here.   It is really awesome that you felt this was a safe enough space for you to be who you are. I know you were rather afraid of saying all of this as recently as yesterday, and coming out in any sense is rarely an easy thing to do. Hopefully you continue to find this to be a good/safe environment to learn and grow in, while having awesome conversations with  amazing people about the most stupendous game of 2014.

[kirvingtwo]

@puppylove - You seem to mean well, however a lot of your posts seem to be telling people to change their tone and that by doing so their arguments will be more effective. I don't know whether it is your intention to police how people talk about these issues but that's how it seems to me.  See this link for clarification, http://geekfeminism....i/Tone_argument.

[upsettingshorts]

No problem, then I misunderstood you. It just seemed to me that you were undermining your position with qualification in a few places, so I had to figure out exactly what you were getting at. 

 

That said, my point about the value of radicals - added in an edit so you may have not seen it - still stands however.

 

So, apologies for the misunderstanding and cheers for the reply.

[Puppy Love]

@puppylove - You seem to mean well, however a lot of your posts seem to be telling people to change their tone and that by doing so their arguments will be more effective. I don't know whether it is your intention to police how people talk about these issues but that's how it seems to me.  See this link for clarification, http://geekfeminism....i/Tone_argument.

 

How things are said makes a big difference in it's effectiveness, as well as perceived meaning whether intentional or not.  I feel the wrong message is getting across, and it's hurting all of us by doing so.  When I feel people are speaking in a way that's harmful, I will say so.  If no one does, it just continues and nothing ever changes.  I argue against this wherever it comes from, but it's much harder to argue for how a white straight male should see things when it's constantly undermined by negativity.  I want to explain things to the straight white male, but before I can, they are already stuck in a position of trying to defend themselves.

 

As a result someone has to counter the harm that's done, so they don't say screw it, throw up their hands in disgust trying to talk about these issues with us, say forget it and walk away.  Because once they do that, it's over and we haven't really gotten anywhere, we just shouted down another straight white guy, yay go team.

[Puppy Love]

No problem, then I misunderstood you. It just seemed to me that you were undermining your position with qualification in a few places, so I had to figure out exactly what you were getting at. 

 

That said, my point about the value of radicals - added in an edit so you may have not seen it - still stands however.

 

So, apologies for the misunderstanding and cheers for the reply.

 

Ahh but while radicals have their purpose so do we the peacemakers, the ones that show that we want peace and equality, that through our actions demonstrate the atrocities being committed against us, by putting ourselves in the position to make the bigots show themselves to the world.  Alas, part of our job is to argue against the radicals to do our job.  Understand?

 

Both have their place, but it undermines the position of the peacemakers, those who represent the strong contrast to the bigotry by loudly doing the opposite if we do nothing to denounce the radicals.

[JadePrince]

How things are said makes a big difference in it's effectiveness, as well as perceived meaning whether intentional or not.  I feel the wrong message is getting across, and it's hurting all of us by doing so.  When I feel people are speaking in a way that's harmful, I will say so.  If no one does, it just continues and nothing ever changes.  I argue against this wherever it comes from, but it's much harder to argue for how a white straight male should see things when it's constantly undermined by negativity.  I want to explain things to the straight white male, but before I can, they are already stuck in a position of trying to defend themselves.

 

As a result someone has to counter the harm that's done, so they don't say screw it, throw up their hands in disgust trying to talk about these issues with us, say forget it and walk away.  Because once they do that, it's over and we haven't really gotten anywhere, we just shouted down another straight white guy, yay go team.

 

I totally get what you're saying-- AND, if a particular person is that closed down to hearing what you/we have to say, chances are that being nicer isn't going to get them to listen. I don't know about you, but I've had enough frustrating and endless conversations with people who just won't be convinced, no matter how nice I am, and I don't have the energy to do it with every bigot I meet. Some of them you just have to let go. We don't have to (nor should we be expected to) change the mind of every jerk or bigot we come across. That would be exhausting and impossible.

 

A better way to fight, I think, is to look at the bigger picture. Instead of trying to change the mind of each individual, we can fight for inclusion in media so that a bigger population of people will see folks like us on TV and in their games, and start to understand that just like those characters are human beings, so are we, the real people, deserving of respect (and human rights). This is proven to work, proven to change minds. A big part of why our society is starting to trend toward acceptance of gay people, for example, is because of the increased visibility of gay characters on TV. 

 

We don't need to make everyone like us, just enough so that the jerks don't have enough power as a group to take away our rights. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Well I guess I misunderstood too.  A lot of my context comes from this post which reads to me as a deference to not anger the majority, because if it came to a fight the majority would win based on numbers.  That is, in order to make the majority support us, we must appease the majority, which isn't something I agree with.  It seems I have misunderstood you though?  If so then I apologize as well.

 

 

The primary reason why, in that thread, I was not in favour of framing it as a justice/representation issue (instead of simply an issue that someone would like to see) was because I felt that the terms were inequitable.  That is, there isn't a moral imperative to include marriage in the game, yet there is one to include LGBT content.  That some (not you) were also suggesting that because LGBT got what they asked for, this should be something that should be considered now, framed it as some sort of quid pro quo when the reality is that LGBT content is now being put on a more equitable level with straight content.

 

Is there a disagreement that the points are equitable?  Because I do think that, on the merits of social justice, they are not the same.  The situation becomes complicated because while someone like me values marriage, it's something I'm quite content to not be included in video games (I don't mind if it is, either).  It's something that I think is fair to leave up to the creative people making the game, and not a bad thing if it's not included.

[Puppy Love]

Thats a very long post to sort through, but, regardless of that, thank you for opening up on here.   It is really awesome that you felt this was a safe enough space for you to be who you are. I know you were rather afraid of saying all of this as recently as yesterday, and coming out in any sense is rarely an easy thing to do. Hopefully you continue to find this to be a good/safe environment to learn and grow in, while having awesome conversations with  amazing people about the most stupendous game of 2014.

 

See the issue is I don't see myself as transsexual, just as a bisexual woman.  Which is my fear in putting this out there, but as a bisexual woman on it's own, a lot of what I say is lacking where the perspective comes from, so sadly I must accept that I am transsexual for these purposes, since transitioning, which I'm still doing, is a part of where I gain my perspective.  By putting it out there, I fear it will undermine my being thought of as a woman, and put too much emphasis on the transition when others see me post.  I really just want to be a woman, period, and forums are one of the few places I can be that and not worry about passing.  Sadly I also have strong opinions, and that aspect of my life is a major part of where they come from.  So I must choose between having my full position known, and where it comes from, or being just a bisexual woman.

 

There's been some strong language against me and about my intentions, so rather than just take it, I decided it was worth it to take the chance and clarify where I'm coming from and why.  I don't expect everyone to agree, and I expect many won't.  I do not, however, desire to maintain the status quot, and I certainly am not lacking in empathy for seeing things differently.  I've filled a lot of shoes, and have a good sense how people feel.  There are more reasons for what I believe that go far beyond what I write here, but if I go into that I might as well be writing a book.

[aTigerslunch]

Puppylove, your a fine lady with a good attitude. Hope you don't get too dismayed by some that would oppose who you are and what you are. You have my vote.

 

JadePrince yes, it is sad to hear all that dismay. Even if felt exhaustible from those many hard headed ones, keep looking up.

 

 

I believe change works strongly with more entertainment, news and such being broadcasted instead of going directly to each individual. Though individuals could be talked to, more often they won't want to be bothered with things.

[Puppy Love]

Well I guess I misunderstood too.  A lot of my context comes from this post which reads to me as a deference to not anger the majority, because if it came to a fight the majority would win based on numbers.  That is, in order to make the majority support us, we must appease the majority, which isn't something I agree with.  It seems I have misunderstood you though?  If so then I apologize as well.

 

 

The primary reason why, in that thread, I was not in favour of framing it as a justice/representation issue (instead of simply an issue that someone would like to see) was because I felt that the terms were inequitable.  That is, there isn't a moral imperative to include marriage in the game, yet there is one to include LGBT content.  That some (not you) were also suggesting that because LGBT got what they asked for, this should be something that should be considered now, framed it as some sort of quid pro quo when the reality is that LGBT content is now being put on a more equitable level with straight content.

 

Is there a disagreement that the points are equitable?  Because I do think that, on the merits of social justice, they are not the same.  The situation becomes complicated because while someone like me values marriage, it's something I'm quite content to not be included in video games (I don't mind if it is, either).  It's something that I think is fair to leave up to the creative people making the game, and not a bad thing if it's not included.

 

Yeah was a bad argument on my part.  The better phrasing of it is, "If you call someone a monster long enough, they will become one."  Which is what I meant.  The current situation is, we are not really organized.  Which is sad, the US desperately needs people to really stand together again, almost about anything at all, if only to break us out of this funk of futility we're in with small groups that can by themselves make no more than a whisper no matter how much they shout.  So my point is, if we all collectively call one side monsters, while being disorganized ourselves, it can bite us in the ass.  I just don't think it's the best tactic.  Making those that actually are monsters expose themselves, however, while working towards becoming organized once more is.  Tact is a good thing.  (Addendum Edit: Ugh looking back over this it still sounds like I'm saying we shouldn't risk doing anything to upset straight white males and should cow tow to them just in case they turn on us, and that's so not what I mean...  I don't know how to make the point I was trying to make there, so I'm going to just drop it).

 

As for my disagreement, yes there is one.  Emotionally to both parties involved it is equitable in their strength.  Therefore subjectively it is so.  Objectively with all factors considered it is not.  It is, however, dangerous and in a sense wrong to ignore the emotional equability of the two, because you're trying to bring the other person to an understanding.  So is best approached with caution, because the side you are arguing against really feels strongly about it, and to them it is equitable because they do not understand and it falls outside their experience.  Which is why both the emotional equability and the objective truth need to be recognized together.  Is recognizing that both sides feel equally as strongly and have the right to, while at the same time showing why with limited resources, those who just have not had much exposure are in dire need of it, and it's not that you don't recognize it's importance to them.

 

I also think saying we will never include marriage and think never doing so is fair, is just mean.  I mean, even if you won't, don't destroy the persons hopes and dreams about ever getting it.  I do believe I remember something like that being said.  Hope sometimes can be enough, or at least better than hopelessness.

 

I, however, also agree that objectively marriage in game is not as strong an issue, but it is not anywhere near a vital and important part of my self identity as it seemed to be for that person.  It seemed to me they really felt strongly, and really didn't understand, and felt confused and hurt by this lack of understanding.  It didn't seem to me they were honestly intending to be in any way derogatory, but just trying to understand using things he felt were comparable.  And I just feel like people were too quick to take offense when the person was confused, trying to understand, feeling cornered and getting defensive.

[JadePrince]

See the issue is I don't see myself as transsexual, just as a bisexual woman.  Which is my fear in putting this out there, but as a bisexual woman on it's own, a lot of what I say is lacking where the perspective comes from, so sadly I must accept that I am transsexual for these purposes, since transitioning, which I'm still doing, is a part of where I gain my perspective.  By putting it out there, I fear it will undermine my being thought of as a woman, and put too much emphasis on the transition when others see me post.  I really just want to be a woman, period, and forums are one of the few places I can be that and not worry about passing.  Sadly I also have strong opinions, and that aspect of my life is a major part of where they come from.  So I must choose between having my full position known, and where it comes from, or being just a bisexual woman.

 

There's been some strong language against me and about my intentions, so rather than just take it, I decided it was worth it to take the chance and clarify where I'm coming from and why.  I don't expect everyone to agree, and I expect many won't.  I do not, however, desire to maintain the status quot, and I certainly am not lacking in empathy for seeing things differently.  I've filled a lot of shoes, and have a good sense how people feel.  There are more reasons for what I believe that go far beyond what I write here, but if I go into that I might as well be writing a book.

 

The people who matter won't see you as any less of a woman. You are a woman. And I respect you for opening up to us. For the record, I don't think being "just" a bisexual woman would make you less worthy to speak on the topic at hand. While I still don't 100% agree with everything you've said, I'm glad you came forward to clarify some of your points. 

 

I think you just need to understand that not everyone is going to agree that your way of fighting for progress is the best/only way to do it. I respect you and your ways, but I don't feel like they will always work for all of us. I hope you can understand that and we can come to a mutual respect and understanding that we just see/do things a little differently.

[dekarserverbot]

Wait, what? Is there an alternate universe version I'm not familiar with?

 

Oh forgot that his confession was in New X-Men but he hinted a lot in all series

[Puppy Love]

The people who matter won't see you as any less of a woman. You are a woman. And I respect you for opening up to us. For the record, I don't think being "just" a bisexual woman would make you less worthy to speak on the topic at hand. While I still don't 100% agree with everything you've said, I'm glad you came forward to clarify some of your points. 

 

I think you just need to understand that not everyone is going to agree that your way of fighting for progress is the best/only way to do it. I respect you and your ways, but I don't feel like they will always work for all of us. I hope you can understand that and we can come to a mutual respect and understanding that we just see/do things a little differently.

 

Not less for the topic at hand, but having some experience on both sides of the fence gives me a unique perspective on how we're perceiving what each other are doing as I've experienced it to some degree on both sides.  As just a bisexual woman, I'm lacking the authority on how it feels on the other side, and am making statements that seem devoid of context for where I get that understanding.

[Puppy Love]

On another note speaking of that other thread.  Thinking about it now, I'm glad it turned out the way it did.  It got me to sit down, and think about how I'm saying things and trying to get my point across.  I feel I improved a lot in just the passed few days.  Sometimes we feel something, but just choose the absolute worst way to put it out there, and find, we don't even recognize what we say as ourselves and it flies in the face of what we actually believe.

 

Kind of like when I was arguing rather insultingly and meany about the body shape a clothing options in one thread.  I have no idea what really got into me...  no that's not completely true.  As well a girl in transition, video games are often one of the few places where I can be unquestionably a woman.  So I tend to prefer a more exaggeratedly female avatar, that fits the ideal of beauty and glamor, I am also a girly girl when it comes to what I like in clothing.  So I desire to be glamorous and beautiful in my games even while slaughtering monsters, and part of me felt we were moving to a point where that was being taken away from me, and part of me feared that someday it'll happen completely.  I know I'll never be that way, but I like the dream.  So I massively overreacted and became everything I hate and despise in the process.

 

For that I sincerely want to thank everyone that put me in my place, because I deserved it, and what those that did helped remind me, who I really am.

[JadePrince]

Not less for the topic at hand, but having some experience on both sides of the fence gives me a unique perspective on how we're perceiving what each other are doing as I've experienced it to some degree on both sides.  As just a bisexual woman, I'm lacking the authority on how it feels on the other side, and am making statements that seem devoid of context for where I get that understanding.

 

Okay, I see what you're saying. Still (and forgive or correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just interpreting what it sounds like you're saying about your own experience) it's not entirely the same, is it?

 

Because, unlike most cisgender men, your experiences were affected/colored by your feeling/knowledge that "straight guy" wasn't an identity that was working for you. So you never really had that same straight male... blissful ignorance (for lack of a better term) that makes so many straight men have difficulty empathizing with the difficulties of the LGBT experience. You knew innately what it feels like to be different, even if on the outside you might have passed as a straight man.

 

I feel like you really want to believe the best of people, and I admire that. I really do. In my experience, sadly, there are some folks that just really aren't going to ever get it. No matter how hard we try to convince them. Whether we yell and scream OR plead politely as possible. And for those who are straight, white, cisgendered, it's even more difficult to convince them that they have innate advantages that those of us who aren't straight or white or cisgendered just don't have. It's really REALLY hard to convince them that there's a valid reason why we're angry, not at those guys on an individual level, but mad at the system, that makes changing hearts and minds SO DIFFICULT. 

 

I'm 31. I've been out as gay since before I had an email address. (I'm only out as trans to this forum and my girlfriend, but it's something I've come to understand about myself over the last 10 years). All together, that's a lot of years of trying to be nice. I don't know how old you are. If you're as old as me, I'm impressed that you're not as exhausted as I am, haha. I hope you can understand that we all come from different places and different experiences and different capabilities. Some of us have more patience than others. I don't believe you're wrong for how you're choosing to fight. But I also don't believe that I'm wrong for being so tired of being nice without seeing any results. I'm so tired of being told "Maybe I'd listen to you if you were nicer about it" because that is a LIE. No one that says that is actually open or willing to hear what I have to say, no matter how I say it. I'm so tired of being told that the only way to get legal protection (both for being gay and being trans) is to wait for people to like us, or to cold-call people and try to "change their hearts and minds" (this is legit what the HRC suggested as an alternative to taking the gay marriage issue to the supreme court in CA).

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to go on and on about this. I'm tired. Maybe I'm a little jaded. And maybe I'm jealous that you don't seem to be as jaded as I am.

 

I think I understand now where you're coming from. I hope you can understand and respect where I'm coming from too.

[aTigerslunch]

Puppylove, there is nothing wrong with choices of styles, as long as its optional and shared between genders. What you asked for was relatively fine in this case I pointed out. Me personally, I don't find women that wear coveralls and dirt all over them less womanly, as most where I work barely "dress" up and still find womanly.

[aTigerslunch]

@JadePrince, please add some instead to when describing us straight white men.

[JadePrince]

On another note speaking of that other thread.  Thinking about it now, I'm glad it turned out the way it did.  It got me to sit down, and think about how I'm saying things and trying to get my point across.  I feel I improved a lot in just the passed few days.  Sometimes we feel something, but just choose the absolute worst way to put it out there, and find, we don't even recognize what we say as ourselves and it flies in the face of what we actually believe.

 

Kind of like when I was arguing rather insultingly and meany about the body shape a clothing options in one thread.  I have no idea what really got into me...  no that's not completely true.  As well a girl in transition, video games are often one of the few places where I can be unquestionably a woman.  So I tend to prefer a more exaggeratedly female avatar, that fits the ideal of beauty and glamor, I am also a girly girl when it comes to what I like in clothing.  So I desire to be glamorous and beautiful in my games even while slaughtering monsters, and part of me felt we were moving to a point where that was being taken away from me, and part of me feared that someday it'll happen completely.  I know I'll never be that way, but I like the dream.  So I massively overreacted and became everything I hate and despise in the process.

 

For that I sincerely want to thank everyone that put me in my place, because I deserved it, and what those that did helped remind me, who I really am.

 

I just wanted to say, I totally understand wanting one's avatar to be a stand in for how you wish you looked and how you wish the rest of the world saw you. I think games are amazing that way. So I understand why you overreacted. Thanks for being open and willing to hear how other people felt on the issue. 

 

We all make mistakes and overreact. I know I do! All we can do is try to be better, and try to listen when people tell us we've insulted or offended them, even when we do it on accident. And being LGBT doesn't mean we never mess up, god no. I mess up all the time. I like to think I've gotten better at stepping back and listening to other people tell me how I messed up, though. There's always room for improvement. We're all works in progress, aren't we?

[Puppy Love]

Okay, I see what you're saying. Still (and forgive or correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just interpreting what it sounds like you're saying about your own experience) it's not entirely the same, is it?

 

Because, unlike most cisgender men, your experiences were affected/colored by your feeling/knowledge that "straight guy" wasn't an identity that was working for you. So you never really had that same straight male... blissful ignorance (for lack of a better term) that makes so many straight men have difficulty empathizing with the difficulties of the LGBT experience. You knew innately what it feels like to be different, even if on the outside you might have passed as a straight man.

 

I feel like you really want to believe the best of people, and I admire that. I really do. In my experience, sadly, there are some folks that just really aren't going to ever get it. No matter how hard we try to convince them. Whether we yell and scream OR plead politely as possible. And for those who are straight, white, cisgendered, it's even more difficult to convince them that they have innate advantages that those of us who aren't straight or white or cisgendered just don't have. It's really REALLY hard to convince them that there's a valid reason why we're angry, not at those guys on an individual level, but mad at the system, that makes changing hearts and minds SO DIFFICULT. 

 

I'm 31. I've been out as gay since before I had an email address. (I'm only out as trans to this forum and my girlfriend, but it's something I've come to understand about myself over the last 10 years). All together, that's a lot of years of trying to be nice. I don't know how old you are. If you're as old as me, I'm impressed that you're not as exhausted as I am, haha. I hope you can understand that we all come from different places and different experiences and different capabilities. Some of us have more patience than others. I don't believe you're wrong for how you're choosing to fight. But I also don't believe that I'm wrong for being so tired of being nice without seeing any results. I'm so tired of being told "Maybe I'd listen to you if you were nicer about it" because that is a LIE. No one that says that is actually open or willing to hear what I have to say, no matter how I say it. I'm so tired of being told that the only way to get legal protection (both for being gay and being trans) is to wait for people to like us, to cold-call people and try to "change their hearts and minds" (this is legit what the HRC suggested as an alternative to taking the gay marriage issue to the supreme court in CA).

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to go on and on about this. I'm tired. Maybe I'm a little jaded. And maybe I'm jealous that you don't seem to be as jaded as I am.

 

I think I understand now where you're coming from. I hope you can understand and respect where I'm coming from too.

 

I understand where you're coming from, really I do.  I try to fight it, I just don't want to be jaded, but I fall and stumble just like everyone else.  I've had my jaded periods in my life before, trust me.  You should have seen me as a teen, I blamed everyone for everything, jumped on every cause, and left high school with the title of most opinionated person in the class in the year book.  I don't even believe most of the things I yelled about back then.  I've gone through moments of despair as well where I had no fight of any sort in me as well.  Not to mention bouts of suicidal thoughts, with one actual attempt.  I've been there.  I'm 35 years old.

 

Also you may be right about my perspective being a bit clouded.  I do try to give others the benefit of the doubt though.  I feel if I do that and am right, then I've made a friend, but if I don't and am wrong I've made an enemy.  Also I don't give the benefit of the doubt and am wrong, I've wronged them, whereas if I do and am wrong, they are the one in the wrong and I've committed no such wrong.

[JadePrince]

@JadePrince, please add some instead to when describing us straight white men.

 

I.... I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, haha!

 

Rest assured I don't hate straight white men. Much of my family is made up of straight white men, and one of my closest friends is as well. 

 

(Mostly I just hate old, straight white male politicians, hahah  )

[SardaukarElite]

 

I've always been a fan of people like Martin Luther King Jr, and Gandhi.  I'm very much a peace and love is how we really make a difference.  That inclusiveness is how we will succeed, by accepting each other, and by trying to bring others over rather than push them away.  By accepting that our identities are equally an important part of each of us regardless of where we come from, and should be approached as such. 

 

When we march peacefully, when we protest peacefully, speaking for equality, speaking for our full rights to live as human beings free from discrimination.  When we do so without using divisive language, when we speak for equality for all. 

 

There is no we.

 

Martin Luther King and Ghandi were leaders with strong, well defined visions - improving African American civil rights and independence from British rule respectively. They each identified a specific problem, proposed a solution and devised a means of fighting for that solution. People who agreed with them could rally behind them. Their precision was their strength, there was little room for infighting among their followers and their cause was easily recognized by outsiders.

 

I honestly don't know what you believe in - beyond a vague notion of being nice to people - but you seem to be sweeping up a any progressive movement around and saying we are all in this together and we shouldn't fight like this. That isn't unifying the causes, that's diluting them.