2138 réponses à ce sujet

[drummerchick]

He admitted it. Our existance was the bombardment. Being open and existing is somehow a bombardment when we exist. A major character being gay/Bi even not a main character is too much.
 

I think you hit the nail on the head. Their problem isn't with game content, or other LGBT media. Their problem is that non-straight people exist. And that is so far beyond messed up.

Look at the common initialism: LGBTQIA. Gender identity and sexuality are grouped together. Because ANYONE who is not cisgendered heterosexual falls into the "other" category, grouping everyone who isn't 'us' into 'them'.  

It's truly disheartening that some people would prefer that other people did not exist. And that is a large part of why representation in Dragon Age is important-  to reinforce that people matter. We all matter.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Char:  I'm not sure where you fall, but if you're gay/lesbian (other), do you remember when you first realized that there are things (many things) in the world not made with you in mind?  

How did it feel?

 

As I own a business - adding variety is sometimes even considered a very bad thing.  It confuses people and they end up purchasing neither product as they become frustrated.  I assure you, in your example, that less apples were being sold once the oranges were introduced.

 

Now, of course, we're talking about human rights - so the worth of confusion is, to minorities, worth it.  But why should it "have" to be for heterosexuals?  Do you normally focus on things that have nothing to do with you?  You would be rare if the answer is yes.  Most people are concerned with their interests and their's alone.

 

@Nobody in particular:

 

Adding more variety does diminish the pre-existing variety.  And that is a good thing.  But I think it would behoove people who have received a great boon on the backs of their elder's labors (the game designers that fought for gays to be in these games) to at least show a little grace to people who are adjusting to having to understand a world that doesn't always have them in mind.  The video game characters you're getting today - did not get purchased off BSN threads.  It happened because people got jobs and fought to have what appeals to them put into games for you.

 

It's easy to be dismissive.  It's easy to say:  "Well 'I' felt this, or went through that, or they did this to me."  But it's better to say: "Yeah, I know that it's not cool when something you really like isn't designed with you in mind.  We do hope you can appreciate that we like being able to enjoy the same games in the same way as you now." 

I think these boards are filled with people finding bigotry where only misunderstanding exists.  And, if it is bigotry, fighting it with:  "My god, these morons act so moronically." Is not the way to change minds.  

 

It's not, at all, how Dorian and Sera got into this game I promise you that.

[Basement Cat]

Goodness me, how terrible! LGBTQ people appearing more regularly in the media despite still being terribly underrepresented? Clearly the Gaypocalypse is upon us! *eyeroll*

I'm four months pregnant, which is my excuse for my slowly eroding sense of tact, but this kind of attitude by those people gives me the urge to facepalm of such proportions that it can only be equalled by the time someone told me that they would "never eat filthy foreign food, only good English cooking", and when I asked them what their favourite dish was, promptly replied with "spaghetti bolognese"

...

Off topic: Congratulations!

[CrimsonN7]

don't you mean his facts straight? 

 

All your straights will be ours, cos that's what we do, we take and take, gonna catch em all, just like in reality, gay people do this all the time right... right?

 

69th page, welp someone had to point this out, your welcome.

 

 

[Char]

@Char:  I'm not sure where you fall, but if you're gay/lesbian (other), do you remember when you first realized that there are things (many things) in the world not made with you in mind?  
How did it feel?
 

As I own a business - adding variety is sometimes even considered a very bad thing.  It confuses people and they end up purchasing neither product as they become frustrated.  I assure you, in your example, that less apples were being sold once the oranges were introduced.

 
Now, of course, we're talking about human rights - so the worth of confusion is, to minorities, worth it.  But why should it "have" to be for heterosexuals?  Do you normally focus on things that have nothing to do with you?  You would be rare if the answer is yes.  Most people are concerned with their interests and their's alone.
 
@Nobody in particular:
 
Adding more variety does diminish the pre-existing variety.  And that is a good thing.  But I think it would behoove people who have received a great boon on the backs of their elder's labors (the game designers that fought for gays to be in these games) to at least show a little grace to people who are adjusting to having to understand a world that doesn't always have them in mind.  The video game characters you're getting today - did not get purchased off BSN threads.  It happened because people got jobs and fought to have what appeals to them put into games for you.
 
It's easy to be dismissive.  It's easy to say:  "Well 'I' felt this, or went through that, or they did this to me."  But it's better to say: "Yeah, I know that it's not cool when something you really like isn't designed with you in mind.  We do hope you can appreciate that we like being able to enjoy the same games in the same way as you now." 
I think these boards are filled with people finding bigotry where only misunderstanding exists.  And, if it is bigotry, fighting it with:  "My god, these morons act so moronically." Is not the way to change minds.  
 
It's not, at all, how Dorian and Sera got into this game I promise you that.

Whew, a lot of text to get through there!
Since you asked, I'm female and still with my first boyfriend, who is now my fiancé. The only discrimination I've ever personally faced is for my atheism, not my orientation. I would never presume to speak for an LGBTQ person about what it is like to be part of a society which is usually at best woefully ignorant, but what I can do is to always try and educate myself so that I am not part of the problem, and to combat negative attitudes and ignorance where I find them.

People aren't going to opt out of sex because they are exposed to a variety of orientations. I suppose I could consider myself as one of these people who has to deal with the fact that the world "doesn't always have me in mind nowadays"- only, I've never felt that way. The world has always been full of people with different loves, different lifestyles, different stories to me, and it is utterly confusing in my mind that there are people struggling to come to terms with that. From my living room I can speak to people across the globe and learn about their lives and struggles. Sometimes I am ignorant, and thanks to the actions of others, I can learn. Sometimes I am in a psition where I can teach. To try to deny the existance of, or fight the inclusion of LGBTQ people is absolutely abhorrent. Sometimes people need to be challenged in order to hopefully become better people.

[Char]

Off topic: Congratulations!

Thank you! I didn't think I could conceive, so it was a huge and exciting surprise!

[Lady Nuggins]

@Nobody in particular:

 

Adding more variety does diminish the pre-existing variety.  And that is a good thing.  But I think it would behoove people who have received a great boon on the backs of their elder's labors (the game designers that fought for gays to be in these games) to at least show a little grace to people who are adjusting to having to understand a world that doesn't always have them in mind.  The video game characters you're getting today - did not get purchased off BSN threads.  It happened because people got jobs and fought to have what appeals to them put into games for you.

 

It's easy to be dismissive.  It's easy to say:  "Well 'I' felt this, or went through that, or they did this to me."  But it's better to say: "Yeah, I know that it's not cool when something you really like isn't designed with you in mind.  We do hope you can appreciate that we like being able to enjoy the same games in the same way as you now." 

I think these boards are filled with people finding bigotry where only misunderstanding exists.  And, if it is bigotry, fighting it with:  "My god, these morons act so moronically." Is not the way to change minds.  

 

It's not, at all, how Dorian and Sera got into this game I promise you that.

 

The thing is, by "not designed with you in mind," you're talking about one optional romance in a game that is otherwise designed to appeal to a very broad range of people.  Whereas for people in the LGBT community, entire games, movies, shows, or even genres have not had them in mind.  There is no game that is 100% about LGBT characters.  There is no game that eliminates straight content entirely.  The straight audience is always still in mind when games are made, even if there might be one or two gay characters included once in a while.

 

So yes, while I feel for players who had their heart set on romancing Dorian or Sera with a straight protagonist, I have a hard time seeing it as them having their options limited, or being alienated from the entire game.  The fact remains that they will have more romance options available to them than they did in any prior Dragon Age game, and they are in no way forced to play through a gay romance. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Char:  Congrats on all that btw.  That's awesome (kid, marriage, love, etc.).  

 

I've met a bit of ignorance.  Far less than a great many gay people to be honest, but I think that's why I believe there's a huge difference between someone who's upset their usual 4 straight romances is now only 1 - and someone who thinks I'm going to hell.  

 

One of them - is simply upset because they lost variety (that others might gain variety is actually not the point).  One is actually filled with active hate. 

 

While people are always way too reactionary on forums - this particular topic has always been a pet peeve with me.  There's real hate out there and I just don't feel that there's a lot of real hate on these forums.  Most of it is just:  "Wait, I used to have 5 options to choose from.  Where did the other 4 go?  Oh, those people got it?  Well that sucks."

"that sucks." does not always mean that - "It sucks those people exist" - it just means: "Man,I really liked all that variety I used to have for me."  

 

Anyway - I'm verbose - so I'll try to stop rambling here. This is not directed at you in any way btw - just conversing with you in particular about a general impression.

[Char]

@Char:  Congrats on all that btw.  That's awesome (kid, marriage, love, etc.).  
 
I've met a bit of ignorance.  Far less than a great many gay people to be honest, but I think that's why I believe there's a huge difference between someone who's upset their usual 4 straight romances is now only 1 - and someone who thinks I'm going to hell.  
 
One of them - is simply upset because they lost variety (that others might gain variety is actually not the point).  One is actually filled with active hate. 
 
While people are always way too reactionary on forums - this particular topic has always been a pet peeve with me.  There's real hate out there and I just don't feel that there's a lot of real hate on these forums.  Most of it is just:  "Wait, I used to have 5 options to choose from.  Where did the other 4 go?  Oh, those people got it?  Well that sucks."
"that sucks." does not always mean that - "It sucks those people exist" - it just means: "Man,I really liked all that variety I used to have for me."  
 
Anyway - I'm verbose - so I'll try to stop rambling here. This is not directed at you in any way btw - just conversing with you in particular about a general impression.

Thank you I've been very fortunate so far.
I can see what you mean, and I do understand that there is a difference between the people who are sad about 'losing' options and the people who can't stand the fact that another demographic has gained them.

However I do think that the former group could still stand for a slight reality check- those LI's for LGBTQ characters aren't unavailable to them, they simply require the player to play from a different perspective to pursue. And I think that's quite a valuable experience, a reminder to people that love exists in many forms, and it's a really positive chance for people to gain a little more exposure to, and insight into, a demographic that they may know little about, or have misconceptions of.

I also think that language has a part to play in how people are perceived, particularly over the internet where tone and intent can be harder to decipher. Some of the disappointed statements I've seen sound a lot more like "I'm disappointed X is gay" than "I'm disappointed that X is unavailable to me." The former statement is problematic, the latter people can empathise with.

[Allan Schumacher]

Lol. I laughed.

Many games from Nintendo or Sega have "bi and gay" content, some of them more, some of them less. Even Super Mario Bros (!). As far as I recall, in Metal Gear Solid there also have been some characters like this, bi Vamp for example. Even in Assassin's Creed such content is present. There are plenty of games that contain some references to sexuality.

So, yeah, I feel overwhelmed. And probably plenty of people feel that too.

 

 

I am not dealing with that fact. I am bombarded with it. I do accept gays and bis, but I have got a feeling that now straight people are getting less important. Everyone is equal, really.

 

You seem to be of the opinion that the mere existence of the content constitutes being "bombarded" with it.

 

What level of content is acceptable, and at what point is it being bombarded?  Can you quantify it in some way?

[Allan Schumacher]

Is it really losing an option when it was intended that way from the start? If they had started with Sera and Dorian as straight and then changed them to gay, I would agree it was a loss. Here they were gay from the start.

 

If you look at it from the standpoint of opportunity cost, then yeah.  If we had put the effort into some other type of content that wasn't gay content, then it's something that would still be perceived as intended to be enjoyed by straight gamers.

 

 

I say this with a caveat in that straight gamers can definitely enjoy LGBT content.

[phantomrachie]

If you look at it from the standpoint of opportunity cost, then yeah.  If we had put the effort into some other type of content that wasn't gay content, then it's something that would still be perceived as intended to be enjoyed by straight gamers.

 

 

I say this with a caveat in that straight gamers can definitely enjoy LGBT content.

 

I agree, it is possible for straight gamers to enjoy LGBT content, just as it is possible for LGBT gamers to enjoy straight content.

 

This means that there is only LGBT or Straight romances rather than LGBT or Straight content. No content is specifically designed to alienate people but some content is designed to be more inclusive.

 

Hell, perhaps some content will encourage people to roleplay a character they wouldn't normally play, maybe Sera will inspire some straight male gamer to rp a femquisitor.

 

Dorian (and his mighty facial hair) has certainly inspired me to create a gay Inquisitor to experience his romance and I've never done a male gay romance.

 

I'm looking forward to the new experience and I'm hoping to gain a different perspective.

 

Perhaps it would benefit others to do the same. 

[mikeymoonshine]

It's about how the audience perceive a character verses how the creator does. Just as the audience make their own options on whether a character is strong, weak, moral or just they can also have an opinion on a characters sexuality. Some people see chemistry between characters the creator never intended, and may see the character as a sexuality different to that the creator intended. 

 

Well no again the analogy doesn't work, morality is subjective and so is strength to some extent as well as also being relative, Sexuality is not either of these things. 

 

So yes the audience can have an opinion but that opinion can far more easily be wrong. 

 

 

 

And is that persons view necessarily wrong? If somebody looks at everything the character says and does in the game, book or movie and deduces that they are a certain sexuality is that an any less valid an interpretation of that character than the creators? If it isn't specifically defined then it is up for the audience to interpret it however they want. 

 

Yes the opinion of the characters creator is most certainly more valid. They created the character and are the one's who decide who and what that character is. Unless the character has crossed over into a sort of shared ownership or unless there are several versions of the character. 

 

If I wrote a Fanfic where Alistair was gay then yes Alistair would be gay but he would not be the same Alistair as the original Alistair who isn't gay. 

 

 

 

 But when it comes down to it I don't really see characters that we only know are bisexual because the creator told us so to be "bisexual characters", because they can be perceived any other way by the audience. Characters who can be perceived as bisexual is closer to how I would define them.

 

Well I disagree but if that's how you see it then that is how you see it, I guess it is a matter of opinion to some extent. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

@Char:  I'm not sure where you fall, but if you're gay/lesbian (other), do you remember when you first realized that there are things (many things) in the world not made with you in mind?  

How did it feel?

 

As I own a business - adding variety is sometimes even considered a very bad thing.  It confuses people and they end up purchasing neither product as they become frustrated.  I assure you, in your example, that less apples were being sold once the oranges were introduced.

 

Now, of course, we're talking about human rights - so the worth of confusion is, to minorities, worth it.  But why should it "have" to be for heterosexuals?  Do you normally focus on things that have nothing to do with you?  You would be rare if the answer is yes.  Most people are concerned with their interests and their's alone.

 

@Nobody in particular:

 

Adding more variety does diminish the pre-existing variety.  And that is a good thing.  But I think it would behoove people who have received a great boon on the backs of their elder's labors (the game designers that fought for gays to be in these games) to at least show a little grace to people who are adjusting to having to understand a world that doesn't always have them in mind.  The video game characters you're getting today - did not get purchased off BSN threads.  It happened because people got jobs and fought to have what appeals to them put into games for you.

 

It's easy to be dismissive.  It's easy to say:  "Well 'I' felt this, or went through that, or they did this to me."  But it's better to say: "Yeah, I know that it's not cool when something you really like isn't designed with you in mind.  We do hope you can appreciate that we like being able to enjoy the same games in the same way as you now." 

I think these boards are filled with people finding bigotry where only misunderstanding exists.  And, if it is bigotry, fighting it with:  "My god, these morons act so moronically." Is not the way to change minds.  

 

It's not, at all, how Dorian and Sera got into this game I promise you that.

 

Ultimately though, I don't feel sympathy for straight gamers. There is nothing for them to be sad about. They are probably going to have the same amount of choices as usual. For straight men there is Cass and Josephine, for straight women there is Cullen and Iron Bull. If this was Dragon Age 2 or even Origins, that is all the romances we would have. They do have the same amount of content, heck, with two romance options left to be announce they may still end up with more then they would have had in other games. The fact that other people are now being included and represented shouldn't upset straight people, unless they have a problem with LGBT content, which, is often the case in these threads.

 

To go back to the ice cream analogy that has been floating around; Straight gamers just got four giant scoops of ice cream. But so did LGB gamers. So, for the straight gamer to be upset is ridiculous because they already have more ice cream then they probably know what to do with. Additionally, getting upset that the LGB gamer got 4 scoops too is super frustrating because thats like forgetting that the straight gamer gets their ice cream every week, and the LGB gamer hasn't had any at all yet this year.

 

And all of this goes beyond being apathetic to LGBT content, representation etc. If you are actively posting and engaging with LGBT gamers about how their inclusion overwhelms and bombards you, then you are actively choosing to express bigoted, outdated, offensive opinions. Which is quite different from someone being apathetic, since it takes commitment and interest, and often actual hate in to continue to rail against content that has nothing to do with you.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Char: Congratulations on your impending marriage and child.

 

Yes the opinion of the characters creator is most certainly more valid. They created the character and are the one's who decide who and what that character is. Unless the character has crossed over into a sort of shared ownership or unless there are several versions of the character. 

This can cause problems when the writers changes their stance on what the character is, however. 

[Borosini]

@Char: Congratulations on your impending marriage and child.

 

This can cause problems when the writers changes their stance on what the character is, however. 

At the risk of opening a can of worms: are you referring to any character in particular?

[Puppy Love]

@Char: Congratulations on your impending marriage and child.

 

This can cause problems when the writers changes their stance on what the character is, however. 

 

Kallen if you're going down the Anders road, don't.  It was never established he was straight, he just was really flirtatious with women.  Bisexual people often act different with each gender.  Actively flirtatious with one and more coy and cautious with the other for example.

[dekarserverbot]

So yes, while I feel for players who had their heart set on romancing Dorian or Sera with a straight protagonist, I have a hard time seeing it as them having their options limited, or being alienated from the entire game.  The fact remains that they will have more romance options available to them than they did in any prior Dragon Age game, and they are in no way forced to play through a gay romance. 

 

I don't, maybe i want to romance Sera but is not going to happen. and i like that way (much better than Lelianna's excuse).

It's not about limiting options, or giving more options to broad individuals, is about the character development. If Sera only likes girls then any man should NOT be able to romance her. I'm not claiming my 2nd scoop as somebody said, I don't want plotholes to arise just to justify bisexuality on an obviously one gender interested character. It's how real world works: you may find a perfect girl that you could do whatever but she is not interested in you because... well she is an individual as any of these characters is. Fanfiction solves that in a wrong way making everyone an interest for everyone, that's something i don't want to see again.

 

I haven't see any of the content you mention. Oh you mean in AC where Leonardo da VInci and Salai are gay? And you felt "overwhelmed" by them?

Oh you poor thing, you.

 

I would do the same tantrum i did with anders if they made Leonardo straight or bi, historically he was gay turning him into something he is not to please a bunch of egoistical individuals would make me angry

[Allan Schumacher]

It's how real world works

 

The real world also contains bisexual individuals that don't appear to be bisexual simply by hearing what they say nor even see whom they date.

[Deviija]

I would do the same tantrum i did with anders if they made Leonardo straight or bi, historically he was gay turning him into something he is not to please a bunch of egoistical individuals would make me angry

 

Anders was conceived of as a bisexual character.  Gaider wrote him in Awakening and felt he was bisexual.  Whether or not authorial intent counts for something to those that felt Anders "changed" in DA2 is up to them, but it is what it is.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Kallen if you're going down the Anders road, don't.  It was never established he was straight, he just was really flirtatious with women.  Bisexual people often act different with each gender.  Actively flirtatious with one and more coy and cautious with the other for example.

Oh, don't worry. I'm not referring to Anders.

 

 

At the risk of opening a can of worms: are you referring to any character in particular?

If you must know, I was referring to Merrill. Gaider was quoted years ago saying she was sexually ambiguous yet recently said she was bisexual.

[mikeymoonshine]

@Char: Congratulations on your impending marriage and child.

 

This can cause problems when the writers changes their stance on what the character is, however. 

 

Well yes it can but that doesn't really make a difference to the point I was making. 

 

 

If you must know, I was referring to Merrill. Gaider was quoted years ago saying she was sexually ambiguous yet recently said she was bisexual.

 

Isn't sexually ambiguous just when your sexuality is not obviously displayed? As in they don't mention it and it's hard to tell? 

 

That's not really changing stance that's just revealing what her ambiguous sexuality actually is. 

[Puppy Love]

Well yes it can but that doesn't really make a difference to the point I was making. 

 

 

 

Isn't sexually ambiguous just when your sexuality is not obviously displayed? As in they don't mention it and it's hard to tell? 

 

That's not really changing stance that's just revealing what her ambiguous sexuality actually is. 

 

You are correct on the meaning and I'd say she fit it well.  Half the time I was romancing her I wasn't even sure I was in a romance with her, she showed no real sign of it at all, lol.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well yes it can but that doesn't really make a difference to the point I was making. 

 

 

 

Isn't sexually ambiguous just when your sexuality is not obviously displayed? As in they don't mention it and it's hard to tell? 

 

That's not really changing stance that's just revealing what her ambiguous sexuality actually is. 

I know. I was just saying that it causes problems when a writer decides to change a character's orientation. As someone who identifies as sexually ambiguous myself I can say it is not a good feeling when a character who thinks is representing what you are for years all of a sudden isn't.

[Puppy Love]

I know. I was just saying that it causes problems when a writer decides to change a character's orientation. As someone who identifies as sexually ambiguous myself I can say it is not a good feeling when a character who thinks is representing what you are for years all of a sudden isn't.

 

But isn't a sexually ambiguous person just a way of being something not, not being something?

Like can't you be sexually ambiguous and gay, straight, or bi.  I've never really heard of sexually ambiguous as a sexuality by itself.