2138 réponses à ce sujet

[phantomrachie]

I don't know how to do a spoiler I'm afraid.  I don't see a spoiler button or something.

 

 

put the spoiler tags before and after your content [spoiler] [/spoiler*] 

 

*including the *so it wont spoiler tag how to do spoiler tags

[Puppy Love]

put the spoiler tags before and after your content

Spoiler

[/spoiler*] 

 

*including the *so it wont spoiler tag how to do spoiler tags

Attempted again...

 

[spoiler] Thank you!!!

[tirnoney]

 

If it were Josephine that reacted then, her reaction might conflict with the personality of your Inquisitor, for example, if she expressed shock that a man knew what flowers she liked, that could be contradictory to your human noble who was educated in what gifts to give women so it would be easier for him to get a wife.

 

(stupid example I know, but I hope you get what I mean)

 

Personally I liked that the romances were the same in DA2, it meant that BioWare didn't stumble into using stereotypical roles of people in a relationship and that we never got a DA version of the weird shower scene between Sam and Shepard in ME3

That kind of flowers thing would definitely grate.  In DA2 Isabela does the 'how about some girly fun?' thing and I could see how that might bother some people.  Personally it didn't bother me since there was an amusing aggressive response option to it which was funnier than the sarcastic option.  I'm sure they can get the balance right.

 

I love the Traynor romance.  What was wrong with the shower scene?  Did I miss something?  I thought the romance was pretty good considering the straight male writer.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Edited to try making a spoiler

 

Spoiler

No it is not ok to not hire someone because they are straight or white.

 

HOWEVER, saying that, when you have to make a choice between two equal people, all that's left is, the people themselves as a deciding factor.

 

We're not talking about someone protected by "Equal Opportunity" so your hang up on that is irrelevant in this case.  There is no law forcing them to hire the transgender person.  Simply put, they can look up, be uncomfortable and say no.  Considering being transgender creates that reaction almost everywhere, because simply put, employers don't want to deal with that in their work place.  It can potentially create issues with not only them, but other workers being uncomfortable.  There's no reason for them to hire the transgender person, it's an annoying hassle.  So when I say hiring the transgender person is the right and good choice in that scenario, it's because it is, because chances are, no one is going to hire them because they don't have to, and because there is no incentive for them to buck the norm.  It's potential an HR nightmare, they can avoid by simply saying no.

 

I'm not talking about a, not hiring the straight white over the transgender because of some forced "Equal Opportunity" law.  I'm talking about taking an active effort to make a difference, despite it being more convenient to do like everyone else and just tell the Transgender to go away.

 

See the issue is that when a Transgender applies for a job, and the straight white guy applies for a job and both are equally skilled, without any protection there is no incentive to hire the transgender, none what so ever.  In fact even if the Transgender is more qualified, the issues that come with hiring a transgender person is quite likely enough that they will say no anyway to avoid such issues.

 

This creates a situation where it's damn near impossible to get hired as transgendered in any job.  This is why there are so many transgendered prostitutes, and is why I personally find the transgender prostitute so common in tv shows and movies so offensive.  Because those that are, often end up such out of desperation because no one will hire them.

 

Is your father completely unhireable?  Do you feel there's an honest chance he'll have to turn to crime in order to support his family?  Because that is reality for someone Transgendered unless they get lucky or live in a place more progressive towards LGBT rights.

 

Now how do you THINK we should handle this?  As current the only way a Transgender gets justice in these scenarios is long drawn out legal fights we usually lose, putting us in an even worse position, with the occasional victory far rarer than the loses. 

 

See you don't seem to get the difference between your father and the other scenario.  Your father may not have gotten the job he wanted, but he got a job.  If nothing was or never is done to force the issue, it'd be just your father and people like him getting jobs.  A lot of people would be perfectly happy if transgendered starved and died, because we make them feel a little uncomfortable and they don't want that in their work place. 

 

Does the occasional straight white guy get boned by efforts to force the issue?  Yes of course they do.  And that sucks and is wrong, but no where near as wrong as the situation that happens far more often and flagrantly on the other side, for which doing nothing means no progress, ever.

 

Now that being said, after enough time has passed when there is no longer a stigma on hiring a certain group of people, such laws need to be relaxed, and if full acceptance occurs, possibly eliminated completely, or becoming a law that merely defends against not hiring someone based on such issues period including straight white.  But when it is so lopsided that the only way one side is not starving and selling themselves on the street is with help and luck, and the straight white guy is in no danger of not finding a job anywhere, then I admit to having difficulty feeling bad they didn't get their dream job, when the other side is struggling to get any job, dream/hated/or otherwise.

You realize you contradict yourself in this post, right? 

[Puppy Love]

You realize you contradict yourself in this post, right? 

In the begining I'm saying the original example does not have "equal rights" protections.

 

In the end I'm saying why such protections are needed.  Not a contradiction.

[phantomrachie]

That kind of flowers thing would definitely grate.  In DA2 Isabela does the 'how about some girly fun?' thing and I could see how that might bother some people.  Personally it didn't bother me since there was an amusing aggressive response option to it which was funnier than the sarcastic option.  I'm sure they can get the balance right.

 

I love the Traynor romance.  What was wrong with the shower scene?  Did I miss something?  I thought the romance was pretty good considering the straight male writer.

 

If they got the balance right it would be cool, but there is a risk v reward element to something like this.

 

 

As for the shower scene, it just jolted me out of the game, it was the first time that we find out Traynor is interested in Shepard and Shepard's reaction is to get into the shower full clothed so they can shag.

 

There is barely any flirting before hand, it's just, full on sexy times right out of the gate.

 

BioWare have a fairly well established romance path

 

• Hi
• Hi I like you
• Hi I like like you
• Shagging

To go straight from "Hi I like you' to 'shagging' all in one scene felt weird to me and took me out of the game.

 

I'm not saying Sam's romances wasn't good, it's just that one scene.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In the begining I'm saying the original example does not have "equal rights" protections.

 

In the end I'm saying why such protections are needed.  Not a contradiction.

No, you did.

You start with saying it is not okay to not hire someone because they are straight or white, but then go on about how it is okay to not hire them because of those traits. So which is it?  

[SardaukarElite]

Uh, I think someone's tags broke something.

 

 What was wrong with the shower scene?  Did I miss something?

 

Well the showering in underwear was pretty weird.

[Puppy Love]

No, you did.

You start with saying it is not okay to not hire someone because they are straight or white(I assume you meant male instead of white), but then go on about how it is okay to not hire them because of those traits. So which is it?  

No I did not, I said why it's ok to require that they hire someone who is something else.  It's not the same thing.  The reason being is that they are not required to never hire a straight white male either.  It's stating that they must make an effort to have a diversified work force.  If you can prove to me there are no straight white males working at whatever job you are talking about, or even that there are not more straight white males working their than any other group, you have a real point.  But saying that a job filled with straight white males, be required to diversify is prejudice, is not a very good good argument.

 

Straight white males are not being kept from being hired, they are being kept from being the only ones hired.  There's a big difference.

[tirnoney]

To go straight from "Hi I like you' to 'shagging' all in one scene felt weird to me and took me out of the game.

 

I'm not saying Sam's romances was good, it's just that one scene.

 

I guess it's the limited budget for romances?  

 

I think I head-cannoned a lot based on all their conversations at the CIC.  Shepard praising her and so on.  But yes, dinner and flowers first would have been nice!

 

The thing that bugged me most of all was that I could talk to everyone and their dog in London except Traynor.  

 

Anders on the other hand was just bad.  There's that Act 1 "Talk to Anders" quest where you either flirt back or get rivalry points.  

 

So as long as they don't do anything really jarring i'll be happy with similar dialogue for male and female inquisitor for the bi love interests.

[tirnoney]

Uh, I think someone's tags broke something.

 

 

Well the showering in underwear was pretty weird.

 

I think I airbrushed that out of my mind because no one ever takes their underwear off in a Bioware game that I've ever seen.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think I airbrushed that out of my mind because no one ever takes their underwear off in a Bioware game that I've ever seen.

You clearly did not romance anyone in ME1 or Liara in ME3 then. 

[tirnoney]

You clearly did not romance anyone in ME1 or Liara in ME3 then. 

 

Liara.  Of course.  Doh.

 

Maybe they did it because at that point Sam wasn't technically in a relationship with Shep, she was still flirting and trying to retain a smidgen of modesty?

[phantomrachie]

I guess it's the limited budget for romances?  

 

I think I head-cannoned a lot based on all their conversations at the CIC.  Shepard praising her and so on.  But yes, dinner and flowers first would have been nice!

 

The thing that bugged me most of all was that I could talk to everyone and their dog in London except Traynor.  

 

 

 

Yeah, that was weird, everyone else is either in London or being beamed in from their location to talk to you and Traynor is sitting on Normandy all like 'should I call my girlfriend, before the fight with the Reapers? nah'

 

 

Anders on the other hand was just bad.  There's that Act 1 "Talk to Anders" quest where you either flirt back or get rivalry points.  

 

So as long as they don't do anything really jarring i'll be happy with similar dialogue for male and female inquisitor for the bi love interests.

 

You can actually get through that conversation without flirting and getting no rivalry points.

 

http://dragonage.wik.../Talk_to_Anders

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Liara.  Of course.  Doh.

 

Maybe they did it because at that point Sam wasn't technically in a relationship with Shep, she was still flirting and trying to retain a smidgen of modesty?

Well, if I recall correctly the scene was supposed to have the shower really steamy so you didn't see the underwear and it instead gives the illusion of her being undressed, but the game kept crashing and they couldn't figure out a way to fix it. So they either had to cut the whole scene, or just have her in her underwear. 

[SardaukarElite]

Yeah, that was weird, everyone else is either in London or being beamed in from their location to talk to you and Traynor is sitting on Normandy all like 'should I call my girlfriend, before the fight with the Reapers? nah'

 

She was probably strapped in, operating the EW suite like a boss. I mean someone had to be fighting the Reapers while Shep ran around getting closure.

[Nefla]

Well, if I recall correctly the scene was supposed to have the shower really steamy so you didn't see the underwear and it instead gives the illusion of her being undressed, but the game kept crashing and they couldn't figure out a way to fix it. So they either had to cut the whole scene, or just have her in her underwear. 

I wonder why they didn't think of using clever angles and well placed objects or body parts to obscure the nudity like in a PG13 movie?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wonder why they didn't think of using clever angles and well placed objects or body parts to obscure the nudity like in a PG13 movie?

Perhaps they didn't have time to redo the scene after realizing that the steam idea wouldn't work. 

 

If you mean for the sex scenes in general, then I agree that is a better way. Inquisition is also using that way if I recall correctly. 

[tirnoney]

 

You can actually get through that conversation without flirting and getting no rivalry points.

 

http://dragonage.wik.../Talk_to_Anders

 

"Don't do it again." seems harsh, even if you don't get rivalry points.  Where's the "You're sweet but I'm not interested." option?

[daveliam]

You can actually get through that conversation without flirting and getting no rivalry points.

 

http://dragonage.wik.../Talk_to_Anders

 

I love this fact.  People just breeze past it and continue to complain that they were railroaded into a romance, homophobia, or rivalry position.  But it's just not true.

[SerTabris]

"Don't do it again." seems harsh, even if you don't get rivalry points.  Where's the "You're sweet but I'm not interested." option?

 

One of my problems with it is at Choice 3.1 in the link: while it's not a gender-specific dialogue prompt, I think the 'yes' response there sounds homophobic if a male Hawke is presented with it.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I guess it's the limited budget for romances?  
 
I think I head-cannoned a lot based on all their conversations at the CIC.  Shepard praising her and so on.  But yes, dinner and flowers first would have been nice!
 
The thing that bugged me most of all was that I could talk to everyone and their dog in London except Traynor.

The Traynor "romance" was hardly a romance whatsoever, seemed far more like a fling thanks to how empty it was, no citadel dates, hardly any dialogue, a rushed start that went immediately to the sex & no final goodbye in london, was just sad how her romance was mostly treated as an afterthought, where most people just remember it for it's "hot lesbian" shower scene & little else.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I love this fact.  People just breeze past it and continue to complain that they were railroaded into a romance, homophobia, or rivalry position.  But it's just not true.

 

How exactly is that again? The dialogue options seem to imply you are only able to be a jerk or flirt with him. And it doesn't seem that clear where the alternative is.

 

This is the conversation in question.

 

[LarryDavid]

Once again, false equivalence.

 

...

 

Gays have been brought to the same number of options as the straight male.  So my questions is, do you think it's unfair that both gay males and straight males get the same number of options, and thus same chance to enjoy the same game?

 

 

An analogy is never the real deal, so there are basically two parts; the part that is similar in concept to what you are comparing it to and the part that differs and is irrelevant. What you always seem to do is notice the irrelevant part and ignore what is said about the similar part. Fundamentally, my post had nothing to do with getting a job. Maybe I'll try again later on .

...


Both gay and straight males getting the same number of options has nothing to do with 'fair' or 'unfair' nor with 'equal treatment'. In this situation there are several ways you can define what is 'fair' and neither definition is right or wrong. You totally neglect the fact that the large majority of the players is straight. That's perfectly fine because everyone does this that way; you consider only a few aspects and dismiss the rest. People who don't dismiss the things you dismiss, arrive at a different concept of what is fair. You, neither them, can say that something IS fair. If you want to use that word it should be accompanied by 'I think' or 'In my opinion' or 'they way I see it' or ... . You can't pretend that in this situation 'fair' is something objective and that you can use it to make absolute statements, because it is nothing more than a curtain that hides your subjectivity. If you say that gay and straight males should have the same amount of options because it is fair, then you have given no argument at all. The same goes for people who say that all LIs should be straight because that is fair.

 

Suppose there are 1000001 gamers and that there is a trait that a LI requires to have in order to be desirable for 1000000 players. The lack of that trait is necessary for the remaining 1 player. There are 2LIs so by your definition of fair 1 LI should have the trait and the other shouldn't have it. Of course there are also other traits that result in a player not romancing a character. Suppose that 75 percent does not mind the other traits of the LI and hence there are, assuming that the 1 player is happy with his LI, 0.75*1000000 + 1 = 750001 happy players. If however both LIs have the trait, then the amount of happy players equals 0.75*1000000 + 0.75*0.25*1000000 = 937500, which includes 0.75*0.75*1000000 = 562500 extremely happy people because they have two options (notice this is more than half of all the players). The question is simple : can you understand that there are people who think it is fair that all LIs have that trait?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Traynor "romance" was hardly a romance whatsoever, seemed far more like a fling thanks to how empty it was, no citadel dates, hardly any dialogue, a rushed start that went immediately to the sex & no final goodbye in london, was just sad how her romance was mostly treated as an afterthought, where most people just remember it for it's "hot lesbian" shower scene & little else.

Samantha was my favorite ME3 romance path. Only beaten series-wise by Garrus and Tali.