2138 réponses à ce sujet

[LarryDavid]

On 22nd August you said this:

' I really can't see why one group should have more right to ask for representation than the other. Left handed people asking for proportional representation is identical to non-straight people asking for proportional representation.'

 

Ultimately this comes down to your position on social justice.  It is at its most fundamental level an issue of morality.  You state that over or under-representation is the same for you regardless of the group, be they ethnic minority, gay, bisexual, transgender.  By stating that you are saying that context is unimportant to your decision making process.  That you do not see social justice as your concern.  Just because a group has been treated badly in the past does not mean we should make any attempt at reparation.  No, we can simply move to treating them equally and forgetting everything that has gone on before.  If they are unable to let go of the past, then that is their problem.

 

I'm just taking your line of thinking to its logical conclusion.  You're not alone in your views.  Many right wing politicians espouse them on a regular basis.  I disagree, but ultimately I respect your right to hold that opinion... as long as you don't stop me from getting games stuffed to the gunwales with ethnic minority, gay, bisexual and transgender characters in it.   

 

The quote is about asking for representation. Some people have the opinion that some groups are more entitled to ask for representation and Allan has even gone as far as saying the other people 'devalue' the word 'representation' by using it. So I don't think you can derive much from it.

 

If I would be a game developer my primary goal would be to make money of course but I would also want players to really enjoy my games. So to some extent I would take what players want into account. However, in order to influence my decision making process you will have to provide arguments. If you say "I'm gay and I would like to have gay characters in the game" then that's an argument. If someone else says "I'm left handed and I would like to see left handed characters in the game" then that's exactly the same argument. They are both based on the fact that they exist and have certain traits. This simply is the representation argument.

 

You can add that it means very much to you because people discriminate against you based on your sexual orientation and because there isn't much representation in other media and ... . Likewise left handed people can say that it also means much to them because they don't get represented much. Once again both arguments are exactly the same. What isn't the same, is how much it means for both groups and that is something that I can take into account. It's obvious very important for a large enough group and that is a reason why I would decide to disproportional over-represent LGBT characters.

 

Disproportional over-representing LGBT people is simply a cost effective way to achieve one of my goals; somehow maximizing an enjoyment function of my player base. It has nothing to do with being inclusive nor with catering to the LGBT community. It has also nothing to do with what IS fair nor can you say that it is what equal treatment entails.

 

Your concept of 'fair' and 'equal treatment' is derived from personal experience, is heavily correlated with what you want and is completely subjective. Yet you pretend that these words have any objective implications. The arguments you give are "You should disproportional over-represent LGBT people because there is some discrimination going around in the world. You should disproportional over-represent LGBT people because it is fair. You should disproportional over-represent LGBT people because it is what equal treatment means.". None of these are arguments at all.

 

Social issues and **** like that are reasons for why it means much for you, on its own it aren't reasons for why I should implement anything. It's the concept of the Original sin, which is despicable. It's not my goal and not my job to compensate for what others do or not do. Besides, the only way to do that requires that I think that I should differentiate people based on their sexual orientation. And I can't see why you would want that.

[Vapaa]

This is very creative quoting I have to say. It is accurate that I used "over-representation" a few times but it would be even more accurate to say that I always used the words "disproportional over-representation".

 

 

p is the percentage of straight (S) people, so (100-p) is the percentage of non-S people

N is the total number of LIs

n is the total number of S LIs, so (N-n) is the total number of non-S LIs

 

Proportional representation means that 'n' should minimize the absolute value of (n/N - p/100) or the absolute value of ((N-n)/N - (100-p)/100). Let's say that 90 percent of the player base is straight, so

 

1 LI -> no non-S LI

2 LIs -> no non-S LI

3 LIs -> no non-S LI

4 LIs -> no non-S LI

5 LIs -> no non-S LI or 1 non-S LI (both yield a value of 0.1)

6 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

7 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

8 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

9 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

10 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

11 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

12 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

13 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

14 LIs -> 1 non-S LI

15 LIs -> 1 non-S LI or 2 non-S LIs (both yield a value of 1/30)

16 LIs -> 2 non-S LIs ...

 

Unless I'm terribly wrong, what you want IS disproportional over-representation of LGBT people. So no need to assume anything about me for simply stating a fact .

 

Honestly, I have never read so much rubbish in my entire life.

[tirnoney]

<snip>

 

I don't think we're going to reach any sort of agreement on this issue.  Our concepts of fairness are clearly different.  As for the point you make about personal experience.  Racially I'm white and have never suffered discrimination on the basis of my ethnicity. And yet I consider the lack of representation of ethnic minorities in mainstream media to be as much my concern as anyone else's.  Again, it's whether you see any part of social justice as your responsibility.  Left-handedness, race, and sexuality are not on an equal footing when it comes to assessing fairness.  If you think they are then you're discounting social context, history, and many other factors when deciding what is fair.  My definition of fair is obviously different to yours.

 

"It's not my goal and not my job to compensate for what others do or not do"

 

That's a commonly adopted viewpoint.  Clearly we'll just have to accept that mine is different and leave it at that.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Honestly, I have never read so much rubbish in my entire life.

 

Care to elaborate? Statistically speaking, he is correct. And as he was only talking about statistics, I don't see how any of that qualifies as rubbish. 'Representation' in its usual definition is a proportional thing. That's why using the word 'representation' is somewhat unfortunate in this context, as it isn't what people actually want.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Is annoying when people say they want "realistic" representation of LGBT people when alot of the time they really mean "if gays must be included, please make them the smallest option" i don't like that some people are seemingly so annoyed about lesbian & gay players having equal choice

[Nefla]

Get ready, I'm about to blow some minds: LGBT people are not the only ones who play and enjoy LGBT content. There are scores of people who role play in an rpg which usually means playing characters who are not self inserts.

[Vapaa]

Care to elaborate? Statistically speaking, he is correct.

 

No he's not: the smaller the group, the less relevant global statistics are.

 

Not even saying anything about the relevance of statistics in representation and videogame content.

[Ianamus]

I don't think it's real life demographics or the demographics of Thedas that matter, but the demographics of the playerbase. I've played games with the most hilariously unlikely sexuality demographics, like having almost every male character be either gay or bisexual options for a fixed male protagonist , but it doesn't matter in any way because the target demographic is people who want to play male/male romances. 

 

But in Bioware games it's a different matter. In all honesty male/male LI's have the least appeal and the smallest playerbase, and it makes sense that if certain gender/orientations of protagonist were to have more options it should not be the one that is least played. 

 

I may enjoy them, but I accept that I am in a minority in that respect. 

[Lennard Testarossa]

No he's not: the smaller the group, the less relevant global statistics are.

 

Obviously. But when people talk about equal representation, what are they talking about, if not global (or at least national) statistics? Equal representation can really only mean proportional representation. The only sensible metric for measuring how representative a specific sample of people is, is to compare that sample to the general population. If there are far more members of a specific group in that sample than there are in the general population, that group is overrepresented. This is the case for homosexual love interests in Dragon Age games.

 

Now, you can of course argue that representation as such is a pointless concept when talking about a group of four (or even eight) people. And you'd have a good point. But it's not LarryDavid who started arguing that having a large number of homosexual (or bisexual) LIs is about representation. The entire point here is that it has nothing to do with representation.

 

What I've observed is that many people who argue for an equal number of LIs being available to the same sex seem adamant that their position is derived from some important general principle. They should be there because of representation, the choice should be there because "choice is always good", etc.. This is nonsense.

 

You want a lot of s/s romance options to be available because you like s/s romances to be available. It's your personal preference. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a personal preference.

[Vapaa]

But when people talk about equal representation, what are they talking about, if not global (or at least national) statistics?

 

No

 

What "people" want is as much as same-sex romance as the others.

[LarryDavid]

No he's not: the smaller the group, the less relevant global statistics are.

 

Not even saying anything about the relevance of statistics in representation and videogame content.

 

Of course I am right. I have only stated what proportional representation means and sample size does not alter the definition.

 

I haven't said that it should be implemented as such, that's your imagination speaking.

[Jorji Costava]

Social issues and **** like that are reasons for why it means much for you, on its own it aren't reasons for why I should implement anything. It's the concept of the Original sin, which is despicable. It's not my goal and not my job to compensate for what others do or not do. Besides, the only way to do that requires that I think that I should differentiate people based on their sexual orientation. And I can't see why you would want that.

 
We should distinguish the question of what you are obligated to do with the question of what it would be a good idea (and not just from a business/entertainment perspective) for you to do. You don't have an obligation to donate to charitable organizations like the Against Malaria foundation, but it might be a good idea, morally speaking, for you to do so.

Further, if we notice a nationwide trend of no one donating to any charities ever, we can ask why this is, and what we can do about it, even without ever insisting that any one particular person is responsible for picking up the slack left by everyone else. There is plenty of space for practical and moral reasons to do something that fall short of strict obligation, and I see no reason why that shouldn't apply as regards the issue of representation.
 

Obviously. But when people talk about equal representation, what are they talking about, if not global (or at least national) statistics? Equal representation can really only mean proportional representation. The only sensible metric for measuring how representative a specific sample of people is, is to compare that sample to the general population. If there are far more members of a specific group in that sample than there are in the general population, that group is overrepresented. This is the case for homosexual love interests in Dragon Age games.

 

I actually see the question of representation as having not that much to do with actual demographics. Obviously, if you have a demographic consisting of two or three people, it's just far too impractical to provide an equal amount of content for them, but I think it makes a lot of sense to provide an equal amount of content for both straight and LGBT players even if the latter group falls well short of constituting half of your player base. Story content is typically a form of positive feedback, or reward, for gameplay. So if you have two different story paths and one of them has twice as much content, then other things being equal, it's hard not to read that path as being the 'best' one to take: It's the one that's rewarded more.

 

For instance, this is why ME tries to have a roughly equal amount of content for both Paragon and Renegade players, even though only a third of players played as mostly Renegades (this is consistent with the general pattern that we see in games with 'good' and 'evil' paths; around 10% of Fable players pursued the evil path). The point is that you don't want to suggest that being a Paragon is automatically the 'better' way to play (you can argue about the success of ME's implementation, but this was the idea). Similarly, if you don't want to suggest that playing as a straight character is a 'better' way to play, you try and provide a roughly equivalent amount of content for both, even if there are way more straight players.

[Vapaa]

Of course I am right. I have only stated what proportional representation means and sample size does not alter the definition.
 
I haven't said that it should be implemented as such, that's your imagination speaking.

 

So you do realize that your wall of math has no relevance whatsoever with the topic at hand, right ?

[DaySeeker]

I'm wondering if there will be queer folks in other parts of the game.  What would you like to see?

[Vapaa]

I'm wondering if there will be queer folks in other parts of the game.  What would you like to see?

 

Most likely, we'll met Celene and Briala.

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm wondering if there will be queer folks in other parts of the game.  What would you like to see?

A happy queer couple for once.  I mentioned this in the Romance Trope thread that Allan had awhile back. 

 

I've noticed in the games and EU, most queer relationships end up going horribly wrong.  Here's a list just from the top of my head:

 

Wade and Herren:  There is a lot of folks that don't realize that this is a confirmed gay couple.  I can't blame them; they don't exactly act like a happy couple.  They remind me more of an old couple that has stayed together long after the love is gone because they are at least familiar with one another.

 

Celene and Briala: Avoiding spoilers for those that haven't read The Masked Empire, but suffice it to say that the relationship ends in heartbreak. 

 

Marjoline and Leliana: If you haven't played Leliana's Song, do so.  

 

Hespith and Branka: Another relationship that ended horribly. 

 

Anders and Karl: We know the outcome of that romance. 

 

So, at this point I'd love to see a happy queer couple that actually acts like one.  Doing the little things that I've seen even straight NPCs do: An inside joke, saying "I love you" (crazy thought, I know), hugging and other little tiny unconscious messages that healthy couples tend to do.

 

The other thing I'd like to see is queer parents.  For example, in a lot of RPGs, there is a quest to track down a missing child.  Instead of the usual expected straight couple, why not a queer one?  I know that the love and concern a parent has doesn't change whether or not you're LGBT.  It would be another chance to show a queer couple doing normal couple things.  In this case, taking turns reassuring each other, and holding each other tight.  Something like that anyway.  I'm pre-coffee at the moment, so hopefully this makes sense.

 

Edit: Special mention: Maevaris and Thorold (Varric's cousin.)  I would consider them technically a queer couple, since Mae is transgender.  They were actually happy from all accounts.  Too bad Thorold's dead by the time the comic starts...

[Grieving Natashina]

Sorry for the double post, but I'd love to see a queer couple act like this, even briefly:

 

 

Mae and Thorold.  

[Lennard Testarossa]

...

 

What you are talking about has nothing to do with representation. So I don't think it would be wise to use the word 'representation' to describe it.

 

Your analogy limps a little bit. What you're advocating for is that each choice be roughly equal in content. The individual choices, however, are not to be "gay" or "straight", but which specific character to romance. So what you can argue here is that each individual romance should have equal content, not what romance choices should be offered. After all, a gay and a straight romance are no more exclusionary to each other than two straight romances.

 

A side note:

Perhaps the fact that few choose the 'evil' path is also related to the fact that it generally receives less attention. There are rarely any quests exclusive to people who behave in an evil way outside of the main story line, the rewards of the 'good' way are almost always better with tons of quests only available to goody two-shoes, all of the interesting quests solutions can be found in the 'good' and diplomatic paths with the 'evil' path usually being nothing more than the option to kill everyone, etc...

In Mass Effect specifically, there is absolutely no reason to ever choose a Renegade option. Renegade is all about necessary sacrifices, and in Mass Effect there isn't a single instance where being a Knight in Shining Armor doesn't yield optimal results, so there never really are any necessary sacrifices. So Renegade is basically all about being the thick-headed military idiot from the movies. (Though content is indeed the same for both in ME, mainly because the content is identical.)

[lane]

I'm wondering if there will be queer folks in other parts of the game.  What would you like to see?

funny how that was the proposition i made while creating this thread x) i was so fed up with all the straight couples quests ,letters and rescuing of dear wifes and lost husbands ! I felt like the only gay male in thedas !  i'd like to see some knight coming to me like 'err messer ,i really need your help, my beloved 'insert male name' is hold by templars and chantry sisters could you please help me rescue him' (yes cause i hate those two orders) . Or simply, see some gay couple snuggling in a table of some tavern (that is if we'll have the time to enter any tavern...) 

[lane]

Sorry for the double post, but I'd love to see a queer couple act like this, even briefly:

 

 

Mae and Thorold.  

well i don't know if should approve this or hate the idea of having this canon with your LI JUST when i really needed it in DA2 !! i'll just feel so betrayed ! I mean it'll be sweet and all ...but i needed this more with some unfamous apostate than any character in DA !!! (those kisses were just not enouuugh)

[Ravensword]

@Lennard Testarossa

Renegade is just there so Shepard could troll people.

[Grieving Natashina]

While I don't argue (I am going Paragade, more on the paragon side for this latest session of the ME trilogy,) this probably isn't the best place to discuss the ME games.  

 

 

well i don't know if should approve this or hate the idea of having this canon with your LI JUST when i really needed it in DA2 !! i'll just feel so betrayed ! I mean it'll be sweet and all ...but i needed this more with some unfamous apostate than any character in DA !!! (those kisses were just not enouuugh)

Don't feel betrayed.  True fact: The vanilla version of DA2, from start to finish, was only given 12 months of development time.  To give you an idea, DA:I had about 3 years.  Most AAA companies take at least 2-3 years usually to do their games.  So, a lot of stuff was left out of DA2, probably including little moments like the one you'd enjoy.  

[lane]

 

While I don't argue (I am going Paragade, more on the paragon side for this latest session of the ME trilogy,) this probably isn't the best place to discuss the ME games.  

 

 

Don't feel betrayed.  True fact: The vanilla version of DA2, from start to finish, was only given 12 months of development time.  To give you an idea, DA:I had about 3 years.  Most AAA companies take at least 2-3 years usually to do their games.  So, a lot of stuff was left out of DA2, probably including little moments like the one you'd enjoy.  

 

but ...but the character that gave me so many feelings and inspired and keep inspire me so much, will not be an LI and might even not be in inqui (i hate this thought) no matter how great and amazing the game is going to be !!! thats why i said i needed this more DA2 and i'll cannot help but feel betrayed ...i already regretted the love cut scenes that were more explicit in origin which i needed so bad with him x( (just imagine how good they could have been with the much better resolutions and designs) 

[tirnoney]

A happy queer couple for once. I mentioned this in the Romance Trope thread that Allan had awhile back.

That's one of my pet peeves. I still haven't forgiven Joss Whedon for Willow and Tara! So yes, a gay/lesbian relationship that doesn't end in tragedy would be nice, although I suspect I'm now scarred for life.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The quote is about asking for representation. Some people have the opinion that some groups are more entitled to ask for representation and Allan has even gone as far as saying the other people 'devalue' the word 'representation' by using it. So I don't think you can derive much from it.

Still hurt at some of the things Allan said to me.