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[ShinsFortress]

*snip*

 

That is the crux of my question, do you think that minority population groups should only be added to media in the exact proportion that they exist in real life? 

 

Why would that be bad (assuming one has access to reliable data)?  Is positive discrimination much better than the other kind?

 

Personally, I think many of us are losing track of the bottom line.  DA:I is a video game that really is up to Bioware to make (unless something really heinous is portrayed therein) and it is up to us to buy it. Or not.

[DaySeeker]

A happy queer couple for once.  I mentioned this in the Romance Trope thread that Allan had awhile back. 

 

I've noticed in the games and EU, most queer relationships end up going horribly wrong.  Here's a list just from the top of my head:

 

Wade and Herren:  There is a lot of folks that don't realize that this is a confirmed gay couple.  I can't blame them; they don't exactly act like a happy couple.  They remind me more of an old couple that has stayed together long after the love is gone because they are at least familiar with one another.

 

Celene and Briala: Avoiding spoilers for those that haven't read The Masked Empire, but suffice it to say that the relationship ends in heartbreak. 

 

Marjoline and Leliana: If you haven't played Leliana's Song, do so.  

 

Hespith and Branka: Another relationship that ended horribly. 

 

Anders and Karl: We know the outcome of that romance. 

 

So, at this point I'd love to see a happy queer couple that actually acts like one.  Doing the little things that I've seen even straight NPCs do: An inside joke, saying "I love you" (crazy thought, I know), hugging and other little tiny unconscious messages that healthy couples tend to do.

 

The other thing I'd like to see is queer parents.  For example, in a lot of RPGs, there is a quest to track down a missing child.  Instead of the usual expected straight couple, why not a queer one?  I know that the love and concern a parent has doesn't change whether or not you're LGBT.  It would be another chance to show a queer couple doing normal couple things.  In this case, taking turns reassuring each other, and holding each other tight.  Something like that anyway.  I'm pre-coffee at the moment, so hopefully this makes sense.

 

Edit: Special mention: Maevaris and Thorold (Varric's cousin.)  I would consider them technically a queer couple, since Mae is transgender.  They were actually happy from all accounts.  Too bad Thorold's dead by the time the comic starts...

 I see your point, but I'm having trouble seeing any relationships that were happy in DA.  Relationships end, and many of the couples you mentioned were powerful, ambitious folks; it'd be tough balancing that.  Maybe that is why the companion relationships stand out, because they are the reliable ones n the game.  DA characters are complicated and flawed.  I am glad that there was happiness and love in the relationships you listed even if they did end.

 

I do want to see Briala and Celene though.

[Grieving Natashina]

 I see your point, but I'm having trouble seeing any relationships that were happy in DA.  Relationships end, and many of the couples you mentioned were powerful, ambitious folks; it'd be tough balancing that.  Maybe that is why the companion relationships stand out, because they are the reliable ones n the game.  DA characters are complicated and flawed.  I am glad that there was happiness and love in the relationships you listed even if they did end.

 

I do want to see Briala and Celene though.

Perhaps I should have clarified some.  Hepsith and Branka didn't have any on-screen time where we saw them be a happy/healthy couple.  Majorline and Leliana was just crushing and abusive, in so many ways, and there is no evidence to suggest that any tenderness on Majorline's part was genuine.   

 

Celene and Briala did have some really good times, but they aren't a happy couple anymore.  If anything, they seem to be at odds by the end of the book.  Anders and Karl...shoot, I wouldn't have known about that couple if I hadn't come to the forums (I very rarely play male characters in games that give me a gender option.)  That's probably the worst of the bunch, considering Hawke either mercy-killed Karl, or Anders did.  

 

Wade and Herren are stable, sure, but don't seem like a good couple.  They sure don't act like they love each other.  Length of the relationship has nothing to do with it; my folks have been together for 37 years and will still say, "I love you" if one is chatting with the other at work.

 

The "good times" mean nothing if the player/reader doesn't see it.  Even then, is it too much to ask for a queer couple that's actually happy and stable?  This is a thread dedicated to good representation for the LGBT community in Thedas, and it's past time we started including those kinds of queer relationships in DA.

 

I would argue that Isolde and the Arl are a happy/healthy couple.  They seem to truly love each other.  An arranged marriage gone right.   Or how about Rhys and Evangeline (as of the time of this writing)? They seem happy and very much in love.  I can at least name two healthy straight couples off of the top of my head.   Where one or both of them isn't dead, that is.

  

"Complicated and flawed" should not equal "every queer couple goes wrong."  I'm not saying everything has to be perfect, but just having one queer relationship that isn't abusive in some way (Majorline/Leliana,) in a position of authority over the other (Hespith/Branka, Celene/Briala,) the partner dead before we meet the character (in the EU or in the game) or reeking of love gone cold (Wade/Harren) shouldn't be too much to ask.  Can you name even one prominent queer couple from the games or the EU that hasn't had any of those things in it?

[Nefla]

Perhaps I should have clarified some.  Hepsith and Branka didn't have any on-screen time where we saw them be a happy/healthy couple.  Majorline and Leliana was just crushing and abusive, in so many ways, and there is no evidence to suggest that any tenderness on Majorline's part was genuine.   

 

Celene and Briala did have some really good times, but they aren't a happy couple anymore.  If anything, they seem to be at odds by the end of the book.  Anders and Karl...shoot, I wouldn't have known about that couple if I hadn't come to the forums (I very rarely play male characters in games that give me a gender option.)  That's probably the worst of the bunch, considering Hawke either mercy-killed Karl, or Anders did.  

 

Wade and Herren are stable, sure, but don't seem like a good couple.  They sure don't act like they love each other.  Length of the relationship has nothing to do with it; my folks have been together for 37 years and will still say, "I love you" if one is chatting with the other at work.

 

The "good times" mean nothing if the player/reader doesn't see it.  Even then, is it too much to ask for a queer couple that's actually happy and stable?  This is a thread dedicated to good representation for the LGBT community in Thedas, and it's past time we started including those kinds of queer relationships in DA.

 

I would argue that Isolde and the Arl are a happy/healthy couple.  They seem to truly love each other.  An arranged marriage gone right.   Or how about Rhys and Evangeline (as of the time of this writing)? They seem happy and very much in love.  I can at least name two healthy straight couples off of the top of my head.   Where one or both of them isn't dead, that is.

  

"Complicated and flawed" should not equal "every queer couple goes wrong."  I'm not saying everything has to be perfect, but just having one queer relationship that isn't abusive in some way (Majorline/Leliana,) in a position of authority over the other (Hespith/Branka, Celene/Briala,) the partner dead before we meet the character (in the EU or in the game) or reeking of love gone cold (Wade/Harren) shouldn't be too much to ask.  Can you name even one prominent queer couple from the games or the EU that hasn't had any of those things in it?

and Donnic and Aveline, Bryce and Eleanor Cousland, Fergus and Oriana Cousland, Bhelen Aeducan and Rica Brosca, Harrowmont talks about his supportive wife, Loghain mentions his departed wife, etc...there's a lot of casual offhand mentions of non dysfunctional spouses throughout the games too but all are straight.

[Grieving Natashina]

and Donnic and Aveline, Bryce and Eleanor Cousland, Fergus and Oriana Cousland, Bhelen Aeducan and Rica Brosca, Harrowmont talks about his supportive wife, Loghain mentions his departed wife, etc...there's a lot of casual offhand mentions of non dysfunctional spouses throughout the games too but all are straight.

I didn't mention Bryce and Eleanor, mainly because they die in the Human Noble origin.  That could be technically considered a tragic romance.  I didn't mention Loghain's relationship either, mainly because we never saw their relationship firsthand and it could also fall under a case of being a tragic romance because she's dead.   Otherwise, I agree 100%.  

[Nefla]

I didn't mention Bryce and Eleanor, mainly because they die in the Human Noble origin.  That could be technically considered a tragic romance  I didn't mention Loghain either, mainly because we never saw their relationship firsthand and it could also fall under a case of being a tragic romance because she's dead.   Otherwise, I agree 100%.  

I mentioned them because we do get to see their healthy normal relationship and it's outside circumstance that kills them unlike one partner betraying or killing the other like we often see with the s/s couples. (Plus they at least get to die together) With couples like Branka/Hespith and Anders/Karl, we never see any good and only see the tragedy.

[Hellion Rex]

"Complicated and flawed" should not equal "every queer couple goes wrong."  I'm not saying everything has to be perfect, but just having one queer relationship that isn't abusive in some way (Majorline/Leliana,) in a position of authority over the other (Hespith/Branka, Celene/Briala,) the partner dead before we meet the character (in the EU or in the game) or reeking of love gone cold (Wade/Harren) shouldn't be too much to ask.  Can you name even one prominent queer couple from the games or the EU that hasn't had any of those things in it?
 

Only other queer couple I can think of is Julien and Nicholas from the Calling. I don't believe they had any real issues (but it's been a while since I've read the Calling).

 

Edit: Never mind, I'm an idiot.

[Grieving Natashina]

I mentioned them because we do get to see their healthy normal relationship and it's outside circumstance that kills them unlike one partner betraying or killing the other like we often see with the s/s couples. (Plus they at least get to die together) With couples like Branka/Hespith and Anders/Karl, we never see any good and only see the tragedy.

Ah, excellent point.  We only saw the end, the tragedy.   We never got to see these couples actually happy with one another.  Which is a shame.  I think one of the keys to LGBT rights comes from good representation in media.  In media in general, there isn't a whole lot of healthy and happy gay couples depicted in mainstream fiction.  I know BioWare is just one company, but they're are a big one.  I love this company overall, and I love most of the games, so I'd like to see representation for LGBT community, women and minorities continue to grow in their IPs.  BioWare is one of those rare powers in media that can afford to take these risks, and I applaud them for it.  

[Hellion Rex]

Ah, excellent point.  We only saw the end, the tragedy.   We never got to see these couples actually happy with one another.  Which is a shame.  I think one of the keys to LGBT rights comes from good representation in media.  In media in general, there isn't a whole lot of healthy and happy gay couples depicted in mainstream fiction.  I know BioWare is just one company, but there are a big one.  I love this company overall, and I love most of the games, so I'd like to see representation for LGBT community, women and minorities continue to grow.

We're in Orlais now, so now is the best time to really add some diversity in terms of LGBT as well as minorities. Hell, they've done an amazing job with Vivienne already, and that makes me soooooo damn happy.

[Grieving Natashina]

We're in Orlais now, so now is the best time to really add some diversity in terms of LGBT as well as minorities. Hell, they've done an amazing job with Vivienne already, and that makes me soooooo damn happy.

Me too hun, me too.  

[Hellion Rex]

Me too hun, me too.  

She's sooooooooooo perfect. Ugh, we need more characters like her lol.

[Hellion Rex]

Ah, excellent point.  We only saw the end, the tragedy.   We never got to see these couples actually happy with one another.  Which is a shame.  I think one of the keys to LGBT rights comes from good representation in media.  In media in general, there isn't a whole lot of healthy and happy gay couples depicted in mainstream fiction.  I know BioWare is just one company, but they're are a big one.  I love this company overall, and I love most of the games, so I'd like to see representation for LGBT community, women and minorities continue to grow in their IPs.  BioWare is one of those rare powers in media that can afford to take these risks, and I applaud them for it.  

I'm not gonna lie, I am fervently praying that we don't have any tragic LGBT romances in the NPCs in the world around us. I get that it's not realistic in the grand scheme of things, but goddamn it's getting old that it's what happens in Dragon Age over and over again. I don't wanna have another Karl issue either, with Dorian or Sera or Bull or Josie.

As for the bisexual romances/NPCs in the world, I hope we see a little more diversity outside of the sleeps with everything type. Granted, I don't think that's a slight against Isabela or Zevran, the former of whom was my favorite companion in DA2. Or, at least like Isabela, let the sleeping around not become the defining characteristic of that character. I believe Bull will go a similarish route to Isabela, so I'm really excited to see how his character unfolds. And Josie looks like a lot of fun as well, another break from the usual bisexual stereotypes in video games.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She's sooooooooooo perfect. Ugh, we need more characters like her lol.

No, we don't. One Vivienne is enough.

[Hellion Rex]

No, we don't. One Vivienne is enough.

I meant a badass woman, who is also a PoC. I didn't necessarily mean we need more people of her personality type.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I meant a badass woman, who is also a PoC. I didn't necessarily mean we need more people of her personality type.

Ah, okay. That I agree with. Sorry for misunderstanding. 

[FaWa]

We have two options in DAI. And neither is an elf. Cant we forget all this SJW nonsense? Who cares seriously

[Hanako Ikezawa]

We have two options in DAI. And neither is an elf.

The LI race options are rather unfair this game. 

 

Straight and bisexual women have: Elf, Human, and Qunari

Gay women have: Elf and Human

Gay and bisexual men have: Human and Qunari

Straight men have: Human 

[Tevinter Rose]

I'm not gonna lie, I am fervently praying that we don't have any tragic LGBT romances in the NPCs in the world around us. I get that it's not realistic in the grand scheme of things, but goddamn it's getting old that it's what happens in Dragon Age over and over again. I don't wanna have another Karl issue either, with Dorian or Sera or Bull or Josie.

As for the bisexual romances/NPCs in the world, I hope we see a little more diversity outside of the sleeps with everything type. Granted, I don't think that's a slight against Isabela or Zevran, the former of whom was my favorite companion in DA2. Or, at least like Isabela, let the sleeping around not become the defining characteristic of that character. I believe Bull will go a similarish route to Isabela, so I'm really excited to see how his character unfolds. And Josie looks like a lot of fun as well, another break from the usual bisexual stereotypes in video games.

 

I agree. I hope that the bisexual romances/npc's in the game have a diversity of personalities and break certain stereotypes. 

[phantomrachie]

Why would that be bad (assuming one has access to reliable data)?  Is positive discrimination much better than the other kind?

 

Personally, I think many of us are losing track of the bottom line.  DA:I is a video game that really is up to Bioware to make (unless something really heinous is portrayed therein) and it is up to us to buy it. Or not.

 

Having minority characters in the exact proportion that they are in real life comes with a number of challenges.

 

Which demographic do you choose to represent?

 

If its the whole world, then pretty much every character should be a chinese male, which would lead to a similar issue that we have now of an over saturation of similar PCs ( these days its the, white brown haired male with stubble)

 

If it's gamer demographics then, which gamer player base do you look at representing? your own game, similar games, gamers in general?

 

Plus all this leads to a negative feedback loop, game developers don't include certain characters because they're in in the right demographic, so those people are less likely to play games so game developers don't include those characters.

 

Positive discrimination can serve some good by exposing people to views, people, experiences etc that are not their own. Thus lessening the negative effects of ignorant discrimination because there is less ignorance.

 

Personally I would like writers to be able to create characters that they think work well without having to look at demographics and think about being inclusive, however people have a lot of inherent bias that they may not be aware of that would prevent them from naturally creating a diverse cast of characters.

 

Writers grow up in the same world we do, full of the same tired out tropes, so it's only natural for them to fall into doing the same thing.

 

Until our society and culture could be considered as equal, then writers must decide to create diverse casts of characters, to challenge outdated beliefs and ultimately help us all work towards are more equal society 

[daveliam]

Cant we forget all this SJW nonsense? Who cares seriously

 

Enough people to fill this thread through 78 pages over the past five months.  And it's only one out of dozens of threads like it during that time frame.  So......a lot of people on BSN care about it.

[mikeymoonshine]

We have two options in DAI. And neither is an elf. Cant we forget all this SJW nonsense? Who cares seriously

 

If you think this is SJW nonsense then you haven't really seen SJW nonsense. People here are just discussing stuff they like and don't like about DA and stuff they would like to see. I don't think anyone here is going to boycott Bioware and start harassing the devs if they don't get what they want. 

[AresKeith]

The LI race options are rather unfair this game.

Straight and bisexual women have: Elf, Human, and Qunari
Gay women have: Elf and Human
Gay and bisexual men have: Human and Qunari
Straight men have: Human

Should it really matter though?

[daveliam]

Should it really matter though?

 

Meh.  It doesn't really matter that much to me, but it is nice to have my options not be at least 50% elf.  I can understand that people want a variety, but I think that that is the extent of it: preference.  I don't think it has anything to do with the topic at hand, really.  It's not like it's skewed greatly for any of the gender/sexuality combos represented in the game.  Straight men would be the closest with 5 out of their 6 options in the series being human women.  But if you look historically, it used to be almost all elf ladies in the earlier Bioware games (BG 2, NWN).

 

It would be nice to see a dwarf represented at some point, but I'm not sweating it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Should it really matter though?

There should be variety for people who want it, yes. 

[AresKeith]

There should be variety for people who want it, yes. 

 

And what if it interferes with how the writes want to make a character?