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[devSin]

I do wish society and games were inclusive enough in general that conventions specifically aimed at LGBT gamers and content weren't needed.

I disagree with the idea that there isn't value in having community-focused events.

Diversity is not some unfortunate obstacle to overcome, and there's more than enough room to have an LGBT-focused convention, just as there is to have a convention focused on women, racial minorities, disabled gamers, World of Warcraft players, tabletop gamers, and everything else. It has nothing to do with games being inclusive and everything to do with the shared experience of a minority group.

And guess what? You're perfectly welcome to attend these conventions specifically aimed at LGBT gamers, just as you are any other convention that holds interest to you.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I still don't really understand how Dragon Age 2's love interests relates to you. I have always subscribed to the notion that they were all bisexual because I thought the idea that they changed sexuality because of the presence of someone else was silly. If you feel you don't know what your sexual preference is, it's not quite the same as the notion of the LI's playersexuality because you can't load alternate versions of yourself from other save files.

In truth, I only saw one DA2 LI as representation for what I am: Merrill. Sebastian is obviously straight. Isabela is obviously bisexual. Fenris can sleep with Isabela and Anders had a relationship with Karl so neither of them were truly ambiguous but more so than Isabela and Sebastian since they required certain conditions for those relations to be known(for Fenris you can't be in a relationship with him or Isabela and for Anders you can't be female). And yet Merrill had absolutely no ingame expression of her sexuality and the only evidence of it at all was the metaknowledge that she is available to Hawke regardless of gender. And yet if she was attracted to Hawke for reasons other than preferences, then it could also have been representation for those without set preferences, such as sexually ambiguous people. 

[olgaroni]

 

 

 

In truth, I only saw one DA2 LI as representation for what I am: Merrill. Sebastian is obviously straight. Isabela is obviously bisexual. Fenris can sleep with Isabela and Anders had a relationship with Karl so neither of them were truly ambiguous but more so than Isabela and Sebastian since they required certain conditions for those relations to be known(for Fenris you can't be in a relationship with him or Isabela and for Anders you can't be female). And yet Merrill had absolutely no ingame expression of her sexuality and the only evidence of it at all was the metaknowledge that she is available to Hawke regardless of gender. And yet if she was attracted to Hawke for reasons other than preferences, then it could also have been representation for those without set preferences, such as sexually ambiguous people. 

 

This is not true. She says that she misses the shirtless qunari, because they were easy on the eyes. That implies that she likes men sexually.

She also wants to know Isabellas dirty stories and searched for dirty spells in Anders' spell book.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

 

In truth, I only saw one DA2 LI as representation for what I am: Merrill. Sebastian is obviously straight. Isabela is obviously bisexual. Fenris can sleep with Isabela and Anders had a relationship with Karl so neither of them were truly ambiguous but more so than Isabela and Sebastian since they required certain conditions for those relations to be known(for Fenris you can't be in a relationship with him or Isabela and for Anders you can't be female). And yet Merrill had absolutely no ingame expression of her sexuality and the only evidence of it at all was the metaknowledge that she is available to Hawke regardless of gender. And yet if she was attracted to Hawke for reasons other than preferences, then it could also have been representation for those without set preferences, such as sexually ambiguous people. 

 

 

But metagame knowledge isn't invalid or non canon. The only reason that Merrill gives off the perception of having no set sexuality is because the PC can change in different playthroughs. But if she's the same character each time then both should be canon. So she would still be bisexual. I also have to question why you would think she was attracted to Hawke for reasons other than sexuality.

 

To be honest, I'm still not sure I understand your explanation of the concept of sexually ambiguous people. Are you saying that you have a sexual preference but will never know what it is or that you have a sexual preference that changes?

 

Either way though, with real people you can't compare across playthroughs like Merrill.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

 

This is not true. She says that she misses the shirtless qunari, because they were easy on the eyes. That implies that she likes men sexually.

She also wants to know Isabellas dirty stories and searched for dirty spells in Anders' spell book.

 

Or she just finds them aesthetically pleasing. I've seen people I know aren't sexually attracted to a gender say certain people of that gender are attractive.

I don't get what the dirty stories or spells have to do with anything. In fact aren't the dirty spells only a conversation they have after Merrill is in a relationship with Hawke? 

 

 

But metagame knowledge isn't invalid or non canon. The only reason that Merrill gives off the perception of having no set sexuality is because the PC can change in different playthroughs. But if she's the same character each time then both should be canon. So she would still be bisexual. I also have to question why you would think she was attracted to Hawke for reasons other than sexuality.

 

To be honest, I'm still not sure I understand your explanation of the concept of sexually ambiguous people. Are you saying that you have a sexual preference but will never know what it is or that you have a sexual preference that changes?

 

Either way though, with real people you can't compare across playthroughs like Merrill.

No, she gives off that perception by giving no perception of her sexuality in the game. And originally Gaider said they weren't all bisexual. And I mean that she was attracted to Hawke for reasons other than their gender. 

 

No, I don't have changing preferences. I'm not heterosexual one month, homosexual the month after that, bisexual the month after that, etc. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Or she just finds them aesthetically pleasing. I've seen people I know aren't sexually attracted to a gender say certain people of that gender are attractive.

I don't get what the dirty stories or spells have to do with anything. In fact aren't the dirty spells only a conversation they have after Merrill is in a relationship with Hawke? 

 

 

No, she gives off that perception by giving no perception of her sexuality in the game. And originally Gaider said they weren't all bisexual. And I mean that she was attracted to Hawke for reasons other than their gender. 

 

But doesn't the fact that she's attracted to a male or female Hawke imply she's attracted to men and/or women?

 

No, I don't have changing preferences. I'm not heterosexual one month, homosexual the month after that, bisexual the month after that, etc. 

 

I didn't think so, but wouldn't that mean you still have a set sexual preference even if you don't know what it would be? Or am I still not understanding?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But doesn't the fact that she's attracted to a male or female Hawke imply she's attracted to men and/or women?

 

 

I didn't think so, but wouldn't that mean you still have a set sexual preference even if you don't know what it would be? Or am I still not understanding?

Not if them being a man or woman is not what she is attracted to, but rather the person. 

 

You are misunderstanding. Heterosexuals know they are attracted to the opposite gender. Homosexuals know they are attracted to the same gender. Bisexuals know they are attracted to both. And Asexuals know they are attracted to neither. If these four set sexualities are the four cardinal points of the sexuality spectrum, I am somewhere in the middle. I believe a term for this region is the gray-A umbrella. Meanwhile the people you describe are one of those points, and they just don't know which one yet. 

[RevilFox]

 

 

We can take it to PM if you think it is disrupting the thread. 

 

Please don't, I find the conversation fascinating, and it seems to be on topic.

[WildOrchid]

 

 

This is not true. She says that she misses the shirtless qunari, because they were easy on the eyes. That implies that she likes men sexually.

 

Finding someone easy on the eyes=/=liking sexually.

I find some men good looking, doesn't mean i want to jump on them.

[daveliam]

You said only Merrill fit your definition of ambiguous, but I don't recall Anders, Isabela, or Fenris ever saying it was the gender they were attracted to in their past relationships, rather than the person.

 

I actually think that Anders specifically indicated that it's not the gender that he's attracted to, but the person.  So, with my limited understanding of pansexuality, I think that this might suggest that he's pansexual?

[mikeymoonshine]

Not if them being a man or woman is not what she is attracted to, but rather the person. 

 

You are misunderstanding. Heterosexuals know they are attracted to the opposite gender. Homosexuals know they are attracted to the same gender. Bisexuals know they are attracted to both. And Asexuals know they are attracted to neither. If these four set sexualities are the four cardinal points of the sexuality spectrum, I am somewhere in the middle. I believe a term for this region is the gray-A umbrella. Meanwhile the people you describe are one of those points, and they just don't know which one yet. 

 

Has there ever been any representation of your sexuality in a video game that you know of? 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You said only Merrill fit your definition of ambiguous, but I don't recall Anders, Isabela, or Fenris ever saying it was the gender they were attracted to in their past relationships, rather than the person.

Well, for Anders that is true. Isabela and Fenris do have intimate relations for the physical needs, so they show attraction to physical bodies. Which makes sense since in the old days Gaider said there was two bisexuals(Isabela and Fenris) and two who had more subjective sexualities(Anders and Merrill). 

 

 

Please don't, I find the conversation fascinating, and it seems to be on topic.

Okay then.

 

 

Has there ever been any representation of your sexuality in a video game that you know of? 

Explicitly, not that I know of. However there are characters in my opinion who seem to fit the profile of SA/demi, accidentally or not.

 

The most famous one, and I admit this can be just my views on the matter and not what the creators intended, is Master Chief Petty Officer John-117. In all the lore of the Halo universe, there is only two people he has ever seemed to have romantic feelings for: the AI Cortana and fellow Spartan Linda-058 (whom incidentally I also think fits the profile). It isn't because of physical attraction, especially since one of the augmentations Spartan-IIs got had a side effect of a diminished sex drive, and in both cases his attraction was more focused on them as a person rather than their gender(this is obvious in Cortana's case because she isn't even a biological lifeform, and more subtle in Linda's) and after he had built a strong connection with them first. 

[Ina]

Not if them being a man or woman is not what she is attracted to, but rather the person. 

 

You are misunderstanding. Heterosexuals know they are attracted to the opposite gender. Homosexuals know they are attracted to the same gender. Bisexuals know they are attracted to both. And Asexuals know they are attracted to neither. If these four set sexualities are the four cardinal points of the sexuality spectrum, I am somewhere in the middle. I believe a term for this region is the gray-A umbrella. Meanwhile the people you describe are one of those points, and they just don't know which one yet. 

 

Hmm I'm curious you use the entire Grey-A umbrella to describe sexual ambiguity. At the risk of TMI, If I'm to label my sexuality in detail, it would be like hetero demi-aromantic sexual-leaning grey-asexual (yeah, too long for casual talk lol). So I usually say straight to refer to myself for simplicity reasons and because I find it more fitting than asexual, as I'm far more hetero leaning and I'm also more aromantic than i'm asexual. I don't think of my sexuality as ambiguous at all though, I have very clear preferences and I know what I like and don't like. So, I feel that Grey-A is a term that can be used to describe multiple such overlapping sexualities including ambiguity instead of solely that. If that is what you were already saying, ignore me. I just wanted to clarify that ambiguity isn't the only feature of Grey-A.

[RevilFox]

 

Hmm I'm curious you use the entire Grey-A umbrella to describe sexual ambiguity. At the risk of TMI, If I'm to label my sexuality in detail, it would be like hetero demi-aromantic sexual-leaning grey-asexual (yeah, too long for casual talk lol). So I usually say straight to refer to myself for simplicity reasons and because I find it more fitting than asexual, as I'm far more hetero leaning and I'm also more aromantic than i'm asexual. I don't think of my sexuality as ambiguous at all though, I have very clear preferences and I know what I like and don't like. So, I feel that Grey-A is a term that can be used to describe multiple such overlapping sexualities including ambiguity instead of solely that. If that is what you were already saying, ignore me. I just wanted to clarify that ambiguity isn't the only feature of Grey-A.

 

Ah, the old hetdemaromansexleangreyaseual preference. I can't imagine why you don't just go by that, because that's clearly not a forty-five minute conversation waiting to happen. 

 

Is there a name for how I self-identify? I'm a person of the male sex who is only romantically and sexually attracted to persons of the female sex, but who feels like he should have been born a woman and considers his (Spirt? Soul? Sense of Self?) to be female but has zero interest in the idea of dressing in women's clothing or any kind of operation. I just feel like I was born as the wrong sex.

 

And I'd like to thank Bioware for having this forum. I've never actually said(typed) any of that outside of my own head before. 

[Vapaa]

 

You are misunderstanding. Heterosexuals know they are attracted to the opposite gender. Homosexuals know they are attracted to the same gender. Bisexuals know they are attracted to both. And Asexuals know they are attracted to neither. If these four set sexualities are the four cardinal points of the sexuality spectrum, I am somewhere in the middle.

 

Well don't consider it like that, I don't consider asexual as a sexuality, but as  a sex drive (or lack of thereof), because asexuals can have romantic preferences towards their sex or the opposite.

[Ina]

 

And I'd like to thank Bioware for having this forum. I've never actually said(typed) any of that outside of my own head before. 

 

Same here. I can't ever imagine being this open about my sexuality in any other forum or public place in real life. Even here behind the mask of anonymity, I cringed typing it all out and felt I should edit it out. I wish I could be as open in real life about this aspect not because I fear unacceptance from my friends/family (I'm very lucky in that I've a good support system), but because they're entirely ignorant on the matter and are likely to brand me as trying to be "unique" by using fancy terms. Ignorance I can deal with, I can't deal with being accused of being an attention seeker.

[aTigerslunch]

Page 80 and catching up,

 

I grew up hearing "queer" as derogatory and feel uneasy of use of that word. F*g, I don't use to term with LGBT, I use it against an annoying person or similar to annoying. South Park and the bikers is an example of what I mean, and that is how I would use that, though I refrain its use much either. I do what my mom does, idiot, you idiot, or they are such an idiot instead. I used gay, or lesbian but try to say LGBT primarily but not each time. I don't mind learning what would be a better term to use.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Ah, the old hetdemaromansexleangreyaseual preference. I can't imagine why you don't just go by that, because that's clearly not a forty-five minute conversation waiting to happen. 

 

Is there a name for how I self-identify? I'm a person of the male sex who is only romantically and sexually attracted to persons of the female sex, but who feels like he should have been born a woman and considers his (Spirt? Soul? Sense of Self?) to be female but has zero interest in the idea of dressing in women's clothing or any kind of operation. I just feel like I was born as the wrong sex.

 

And I'd like to thank Bioware for having this forum. I've never actually said(typed) any of that outside of my own head before. 

 

There are lots of potential names for how you feel RevilFox. This is obviously a very personal matter though. Please feel free to pm me if you want or need someone to chat with.

[daveliam]

It's kind of cool to see the conversations that are happening in this thread about sexuality.  I'm glad that people feel safe enough in the thread to discuss things that they aren't normally comfortable discussing.  I know it's a bit off-topic, but I think there is a real value to this conversation.  Thanks BSN for:  1.)  keeping the thread open and allowing us to go rogue; and b.)  not coming into the thread and derailing the off-topic conversation (can that happen?) with trolling efforts.

 

If anyone wants to PM to talk more privately, I'm down.  Cool stuff, here, people.

[Gustave Flowbert]

I hope this is a contribution to the DA2 discussion but please just ignore me if not, heh.

 

I've been really interested to immerse myself in the online Dragon Age fandoms the past few years and learn how controversial the LIs in DA2 were. I know the term "player sexual" has some HIGHLY offensive potential but the concept was such a breath of fresh air to me (personally, of course).

 

Because to me, none of the romance options were actually bisexual...necessarily. Some playthroughs, Anders was straight, some he was bi, some he was gay and my Hawkes either were options or not for him. This does absolutely bupkiss for representation and I have definitely been convinced by David Gaider's comments and Allen Schumacher's comments that the writing approach for DAI with each character considered completely with their gender identity, their sexuality, etc. as one complete person - as opposed to a complete person except with regard to sexuality - is the best model for writers.

 

But I loved that it wasn't too difficult to play out different head canons for these characters each time and have the game respond (for the most part) to my options.

 

Again though, I am definitely on board with set sexualities again but just my input for DA2.

 

The "q***r" conversation has been an interesting development from the history I know of it. We're such a broad and diverse community that there really is no perfect term for the group. LGBT excludes many, LGBTQQIA* is better for inclusion but almost impossible to say or use, queer is empowering for some and degrading and triggering for others, GSM can be noted to have elements of racial appropriation (when racism is a big enough problem for the queer/LGBTQQIA* community).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Hmm I'm curious you use the entire Grey-A umbrella to describe sexual ambiguity. At the risk of TMI, If I'm to label my sexuality in detail, it would be like hetero demi-aromantic sexual-leaning grey-asexual (yeah, too long for casual talk lol). So I usually say straight to refer to myself for simplicity reasons and because I find it more fitting than asexual, as I'm far more hetero leaning and I'm also more aromantic than i'm asexual. I don't think of my sexuality as ambiguous at all though, I have very clear preferences and I know what I like and don't like. So, I feel that Grey-A is a term that can be used to describe multiple such overlapping sexualities including ambiguity instead of solely that. If that is what you were already saying, ignore me. I just wanted to clarify that ambiguity isn't the only feature of Grey-A.

 

I'm sorry if I am using it wrong. I still don't know all the terms that well so I mostly go by how other people have described them to me. It can be more than that, definitely. I was just using it like that more for the metaphor to try to explain. 

[Lady Nuggins]

I'm sorry if I am using it wrong. I still don't know all the terms that well so I mostly go by how other people have described them to me. It can be more than that, definitely. I was just using it like that more for the metaphor to try to explain. 

 

Do you mind me asking what it is that makes labels like bisexual or pansexual definitely not appeal to you?  I ask because I find uncertainty is very common among people I talk to who are attracted to multiple genders--nobody is ever really sure how they'd define that attraction.  I hear a lot of "I'm just attracted to pretty people."  A lot of people feel that those labels are too rigid, suggesting that they must have equal attraction to both men and women, when they might be into one gender only occasionally.  I find a lot of people use bisexual as shorthand for "I think I'm attracted to multiple genders, at least sometimes, if they have nice hair," but it's just too much to go into most of the time.

 

For me, I only started calling myself anything in the last couple of years, and I waffled for a long time over whether I preferred bisexual or pansexual.  I really started to claim the word bisexual for myself when I started recognizing biphobia in a lot of the media I enjoy and fandoms I'm part of.  I wanted to be able to stand up for my own representation, and use words that would be recognized. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Do you mind me asking what it is that makes labels like bisexual or pansexual definitely not appeal to you?  I ask because I find uncertainty is very common among people I talk to who are attracted to multiple genders--nobody is ever really sure how they'd define that attraction.  I hear a lot of "I'm just attracted to pretty people."  A lot of people feel that those labels are too rigid, suggesting that they must have equal attraction to both men and women, when they might be into one gender only occasionally.  I find a lot of people use bisexual as shorthand for "I think I'm attracted to multiple genders, at least sometimes, if they have nice hair," but it's just too much to go into most of the time.

 

For me, I only started calling myself anything in the last couple of years, and I waffled for a long time over whether I preferred bisexual or pansexual.  I really started to claim the word bisexual for myself when I started recognizing biphobia in a lot of the media I enjoy and fandoms I'm part of.  I wanted to be able to stand up for my own representation, and use words that would be recognized. 

Well, mainly since I think they don't apply. While sure I find both certain men and women aesthetically pleasing, I would not say I am attracted to them(or at least not because of their appearance). Rather I become attracted to a person because they are they are who they are, and only then do I start to see them as physically attractive. 

[Medhia_Nox]

The problem in a CRPG is that the "DM" is hardcoded.

 

Let's take these same characters and transport them into a real RPG. 

 

If you met Fenris... as a male character, and romanced him - the DM would never tell you what "could" have happened if you were a female.

 

If you were a female and romanced Fenris - the DM would never tell you that if it suited his story he "could" have made the character gay.

 

And if he reveals that the character likes both sexes... then the character is clearly bisexual.

 

And a good DM is willing to allow his story to be molded by the needs of the characters.  It's actually DMing 101.  But in a video game - people cry that it's somehow immersion breaking. 

 

In my game - the person I romanced was never bisexual - and if he was, I would never have to even know. 

 

As for "your" canon?  What do I care about "your" canon? It doesn't exist to me (nor mine, to you)