2139 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

The problem in a CRPG is that the "DM" is hardcoded.

 

Let's take these same characters and transport them into a real RPG. 

 

If you met Fenris... as a male character, and romanced him - the DM would never tell you what "could" have happened if you were a female.

 

If you were a female and romanced Fenris - the DM would never tell you that if it suited his story he "could" have made the character gay.

 

And if he reveals that the character likes both sexes... then the character is clearly bisexual.

 

And a good DM is willing to allow his story to be molded by the needs of the characters.  It's actually DMing 101.  But in a video game - people cry that it's somehow immersion breaking. 

 

In my game - the person I romanced was never bisexual - and if he was, I would never have to even know. 

 

As for "your" canon?  What do I care about "your" canon? It doesn't exist to me (nor mine, to you)

[daveliam]

Well, mainly since I think they don't apply. While sure I find both certain men and women aesthetically pleasing, I would not say I am attracted to them(or at least not because of their appearance). Rather I become attracted to a person because they are they are who they are, and only then do I start to see them as physically attractive. 

 

I feel like you've been getting bombarded with clarifying questions, so I apologize in advance.  I'm just interested in your perspective because it's not one that I am familiar with.

 

I can understand why you would say that bisexual doesn't apply, but I'm wondering if you could clarify why pansexual or demisexual don't apply.  They seem, from my outsider eyes, to encompass your perspective.  What is it about their descriptions that makes you reject them as a label?

[tirnoney]

Well, mainly since I think they don't apply. While sure I find both certain men and women aesthetically pleasing, I would not say I am attracted to them(or at least not because of their appearance). Rather I become attracted to a person because they are they are who they are, and only then do I start to see them as physically attractive.

Interesting. I think lots of people would say the same. I rarely if ever find a person attractive unless I know them as a person. I still describe myself as bisexual, mainly because it's a catch-all and is widely understood as a term. All it means to me is that I'm 'capable of being attracted to a person of any gender'. Pansexual might be more accurate but it's less widely understood outside LGBT circles. I see it as a separate issue from what it is that makes me attracted to any individual. If that makes sense.

[Gustave Flowbert]

Well, my canon is really shiny and makes great lentil loaf!

 

But, I mean, why do we need to transport them to real life? I'm presenting the fact that they are digital as the attraction of the "PS" system. Of course the DM has written characters a particular way and I understand that this can lead to awesome strides in representation and creating fully rounded characters.

 

My point is just that the system in DA2 - while not useful for representing underattended people with regard to sexual orientation - could be argued for as opening up more options to more player. It's amazing what "serah" and "Hawke" can cover, heh!

 

Or did I miss your point? I feel I may have, sorry.

[eyezonlyii]

I've only read the last few pages, so I'll only comment on what know so far. I am a homosexual male, who believes that sexuality is fluid in theory, though I certainly am not one to nominate as an example. I do think however, after reading this thread, that something my seventh grade bio teacher said pertains to the labels we use now more than ever as the acronym (LGBT...) expands at an exponential rate:

 

Sex is either male or female, but gender can be anywhere either between, outside or surrounding those markers. 

 

Taken like that, then heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual all encompass those who are attracted to the concrete physical bodies of their partners, as well as the mind and spirit, but the body definitely does matter.

 

So to me personally, I think terms need to be created to specify which gender and/or how many a person is attracted to. 

 

But again, my exposure to queer life (other than gay and bi) has been minimal at best, so I really hope to not have offended anyone (or sounded ignorant) in the process.

[RobRam10]

POWAH to you brothers and sisters!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I feel like you've been getting bombarded with clarifying questions, so I apologize in advance.  I'm just interested in your perspective because it's not one that I am familiar with.

 

I can understand why you would say that bisexual doesn't apply, but I'm wondering if you could clarify why pansexual or demisexual don't apply.  They seem, from my outsider eyes, to encompass your perspective.  What is it about their descriptions that makes you reject them as a label?

Yeah, I'm not used to getting this much attention directed at me. Thankfully it is on he Internet rather than real life. Otherwise I'd have had a panic attack. 

 

Well, for pansexual I always saw it as like bisexual where there is physical attraction from near the beginning. For example Iron Bull, who we know is a pansexual, sounds like he is attracted to the body of the Inquisitor as well as the person from the start. I could be wrong but I get that feeling about his route. 

As for demisexual, well I haven't really rejected that. It is indeed the closest explanation I have got, but I don't know if it is close enough to use just yet. Meanwhile SA does feel accurate, even if it isn't a common term, so I've grown used to using it. in time I may grow used to another term like demi or something similar. 

[aTigerslunch]

It is nice to get a lot of attention isn't it?  I get quieter if I got too much attention but force that to end. I had to lead troops around fields a bit, so couldn't get to quiet.

 

I think there has to be some kind of physical attraction to get a mental attraction going, less they been eavesdropping into the personality of a person?  I think this is what it would be, though I could be off base with this. I figured need some kind of physical attraction, well....no. Come to think of it, could be friends and then attracted to someone as well after been talking to them, but wasn't beforehand.

[daveliam]

Yeah, I'm not used to getting this much attention directed at me. Thankfully it is on he Internet rather than real life. Otherwise I'd have had a panic attack. 

 

Well, for pansexual I always saw it as like bisexual where there is physical attraction from near the beginning. For example Iron Bull, who we know is a pansexual, sounds like he is attracted to the body of the Inquisitor as well as the person from the start. I could be wrong but I get that feeling about his route. 

As for demisexual, well I haven't really rejected that. It is indeed the closest explanation I have got, but I don't know if it is close enough to use just yet. Meanwhile SA does feel accurate, even if it isn't a common term, so I've grown used to using it. in time I may grow used to another term like demi or something similar. 

 

Well, I think you've handled the attention well, if that means anything.  Thanks again for being to willing to discuss these matters as I've gathered that it's not really something that you talk about alot.

 

This last post was the one that really helped things click for me.  I think now I can understand where you are coming from.  Thanks again.

[Ianamus]

I find the physical/emotional/personality attraction dynamic pretty complicated and interesting. There are people who I am attracted to "off the bat" so to speak because of their body, but I find that if I really like someones personality that also makes them attractive, and can actually create physical attraction even if there wasn't any. And that this can apply to almost anyone, even if they don't fall into 'male' or 'female'.

 

I'm not sure where personality attraction falls into things though. I'm not sure it's related to demisexuality because it's not necesserily an emotional bond. And then certain personality traits can be more attractive on certain genders, which only complicates the matter even further.

[Gustave Flowbert]

There are some really great points to raise about genetics, epigenetics/endocrinology, and neuroplasticity when it comes to sex and gender. As a species, we aren't particularly dimorphic though there are times when it is useful to use two sexes (when discussing gene flow in humans, for instance). Honestly though - when it comes to culture and identity - people would benefit greatly from getting away from essentialist thinking, in gender expression and assumptions based on sexual characteristics. I would even argue that in medical treatment, hormone levels, cell counts, and nutrient levels are really the only factors that need to be accounted for for just about any illness and these vary greatly between any human and especially between people that share similar sexual characteristics.

 

Neurology is still a new field but it will really begin to shed light on the phenomenon of gender, I think. Check out Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine if that topic interests you.

[Darth Krytie]

Yeah, I'm not used to getting this much attention directed at me. Thankfully it is on he Internet rather than real life. Otherwise I'd have had a panic attack. 

 

Well, for pansexual I always saw it as like bisexual where there is physical attraction from near the beginning. For example Iron Bull, who we know is a pansexual, sounds like he is attracted to the body of the Inquisitor as well as the person from the start. I could be wrong but I get that feeling about his route. 

As for demisexual, well I haven't really rejected that. It is indeed the closest explanation I have got, but I don't know if it is close enough to use just yet. Meanwhile SA does feel accurate, even if it isn't a common term, so I've grown used to using it. in time I may grow used to another term like demi or something similar. 

 

I dunno if this'll make you feel better, but despite what Gaider said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Merrill can't be demisexual or only sexually attracted once emotional attraction takes hold.

 

Realise that a good number of people don't all have the same set of definitions at hand to describe a thing. Hell, a good number of people don't get there's something apart from being completely gay or completely het. Even here, people have different definitions for the same exact words. So, despite referring to her as bisexual, removing ambiguity in the sense that her sexuality does not change based on someone's choices in CC, it can still mean that she's warms up to people romantically the same way you've perceived before.

[daveliam]

I dunno if this'll make you feel better, but despite what Gaider said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Merrill can't be demisexual or only sexually attracted once emotional attraction takes hold.

 

Realise that a good number of people don't all have the same set of definitions at hand to describe a thing. Hell, a good number of people don't get there's something apart from being completely gay or completely het. Even here, people have different definitions for the same exact words. So, despite referring to her as bisexual, removing ambiguity in the sense that her sexuality does not change based on someone's choices in CC, it can still mean that she's warms up to people romantically the same way you've perceived before.

 

Yeah, I think I agree with you on this Krytie.  Now that I'm becoming more familiar with the terms "pansexual" and "demisexual", I think that I can start to form my own "working definitions" of how I see these terms.  For me, pansexuality is a type of bisexuality.  It's a more "liberal" or "open" form of the idea that a person is attracted to multiple genders, without being limited to a binary.  To bring it back to DA, I would say that Zevran, Isabela, Anders, and Iron Bull might all be pansexual (specifically Anders and IB).

 

Demisexuality, to me, is more of a modifier.  As in, it's not necessarily a sexual orientation on its own.  It's the way in which sexual or physical attraction occurs for some people.  A person could be heterosexual and demisexual (or any other sexual orientation and demisexual).  So to bring it back to DA, I could very easily see Merrrill as a bisexual demisexual.  She needs an emotional connection in order for attraction to happen, but her attraction isn't limited to only one gender.

 

I see a parallel between 'demisexualilty' and 'transexuality' in the fact that they are not necessarily sexual orientations on their own.  You can be a heterosexual, demisexual, transexual wo/man.  However, they seem to get lumped into the sexual orientation category because they are "deviants" from the "norm" (hopefully, you see how I'm using those words). 

 

This whole conversation has been fascinating to me.  I love learning about stuff like this and it's interesting to see how we can use the characters from DA as a way to highlight concepts.  Very cool stuff.

[RobRam10]

Sweet Tzeentch now there's a demisexual? 

[Gregolian]

Jesus....  I'm not trying to be obtuse/uncouth/non-PC here but why can't it just be there are those that like the opposite sex, those that like the same sex, those that like what they like, and then those that aren't sure what they like anymore?

 

The biggest issue I have and I say issue not in the way a ultra right-wing person from Alabama has issue with the sexuality conversation is there are too many bloody letters.  First it was LGBT then there's a litany of other letters on the end of it and bloody asterisks as well.  It makes it a very VERY confusing conversation to have.

[Borosini]

Jesus....  I'm not trying to be obtuse/uncouth/non-PC here but why can't it just be there are those that like the opposite sex, those that like the same sex, those that like what they like, and then those that aren't sure what they like anymore?

 

The biggest issue I have and I say issue not in the way a ultra right-wing person from Alabama has issue with the sexuality conversation is there are too many bloody letters.  First it was LGBT then there's a litany of other letters on the end of it and bloody asterisks as well.  It makes it a very VERY confusing conversation to have.

 

Probably because people often seek clarity/precision of meaning, and find comfort in accurate labels or in finding other individuals who identify similarly to them.

 

Your question is rather like saying 48-bit color depth is way more complicated than 4-bit, so why can't we go back to 4-bit because it's simpler?

 

I also have to say that if I have to choose between someone's ability to self-actualize or someone else's being confused, I'm probably going to prioritize the former.

[Gregolian]

I also have to say that if I have to choose between someone's ability to self-actualize or someone else's being confused, I'm probably going to prioritize the former.

Don't get me wrong I understand this...  but as someone that is "in" a minority group (My mother is a Japanese immigrant and my father is the 1st generation son of immigrants from Eastern Europe) I understand the desire to have a label that you "fit" so to speak.  But at the same time...  this addition of "pansexual", "demisxual" and everything else causes any conversation to be had about the subject, difficult.  People end up spending more time defining terms than discussing whatever it was you had intended to discuss.

 

Yes I know, I'm not a part of the group we are speaking about but as an "outsider" this is what sticks out to me.

[Lady Nuggins]

Jesus....  I'm not trying to be obtuse/uncouth/non-PC here but why can't it just be there are those that like the opposite sex, those that like the same sex, those that like what they like, and then those that aren't sure what they like anymore?

 

The biggest issue I have and I say issue not in the way a ultra right-wing person from Alabama has issue with the sexuality conversation is there are too many bloody letters.  First it was LGBT then there's a litany of other letters on the end of it and bloody asterisks as well.  It makes it a very VERY confusing conversation to have.

 

I'm pretty sure that the mild inconvenience of trying to figure out the most inclusive terminology is outweighed by the importance of allowing people to identify however they want.  I admit, when I first stumbled across some terms I had not encountered before, like demisexual, I thought it was a bit silly too.  I stopped finding it silly when I kept seeing people who said "oh my gosh, there's a word for how I feel."  Putting a name to what you are helps you feel normal instead of weird, and it gives you a way to connect to other people like you.  

 

I do agree that I wish there was a simpler word than the acronym.  We just had the discussion about how many people find "queer" triggering, so I don't want to keep throwing that around if some people are bothered by it.  Gay is sometimes used as a catch-all term, but that doesn't always fit and can be seen as a bit exclusive.  I think what this highlights is the fact that sexuality, like people in general, is messy and confusing, and we'd have an easier time of it if we weren't trying to compartmentalize anything "not straight" into a single category.  But that's the culture we're trying to work within, so awkwardness is just bound to happen.

 

Yeah, I think I agree with you on this Krytie.  Now that I'm becoming more familiar with the terms "pansexual" and "demisexual", I think that I can start to form my own "working definitions" of how I see these terms.  For me, pansexuality is a type of bisexuality.  It's a more "liberal" or "open" form of the idea that a person is attracted to multiple genders, without being limited to a binary.  To bring it back to DA, I would say that Zevran, Isabela, Anders, and Iron Bull might all be pansexual (specifically Anders and IB).

 

Demisexuality, to me, is more of a modifier.  As in, it's not necessarily a sexual orientation on its own.  It's the way in which sexual or physical attraction occurs for some people.  A person could be heterosexual and demisexual (or any other sexual orientation and demisexual).  So to bring it back to DA, I could very easily see Merrrill as a bisexual demisexual.  She needs an emotional connection in order for attraction to happen, but her attraction isn't limited to only one gender.

 

This is how I understand it, too.  I think demisexual, asexual, and allosexual (the opposite of asexual, I have learned) describe a person's ability to feel sexual attraction, independent of what their orientation is.  

[daveliam]

I do agree that I wish there was a simpler word than the acronym.  We just had the discussion about how many people find "queer" triggering, so I don't want to keep throwing that around if some people are bothered by it.  Gay is sometimes used as a catch-all term, but that doesn't always fit and can be seen as a bit exclusive.  I think what this highlights is the fact that sexuality, like people in general, is messy and confusing, and we'd have an easier time of it if we weren't trying to compartmentalize anything "not straight" into a single category.  But that's the culture we're trying to work within, so awkwardness is just bound to happen.

 

I agree that this is where the confusion mostly comes from.  The terminology is muddy and confusing and it creates situations where people accidentally offend people which ends up frustrating everyone. 

 

I am becoming more and more convinced that there are two separate categories getting lumped together and I'm not sure that it's the most effective or efficient way for change to happen.  It seems to me that the sheer number of letters being added to the acronym should indicate that perhaps the "group" is actually several groups all being rolled into one. 

[Gustave Flowbert]

It is rolled together! But it was rolled together as an act of necessity and desperation in a difficult time. A very different time, with different understandings of gender and sexual identity but we've been able to have more power together. The recent schism about RuPaul's defense of the word "t****y" has possibly shown that treatment as completely separate communities might be for the best. It makes me sad because there have been some great moments in history as a singular community but I think your feelings are correct that sexual orientation and gender identity/expression make up the two poles of the community and they're often miles apart.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It is nice to get a lot of attention isn't it?  I get quieter if I got too much attention but force that to end. I had to lead troops around fields a bit, so couldn't get to quiet.

Depends on the attention really. Usually when I am the focus of attention, it is not the positive kind. 

 

Well, I think you've handled the attention well, if that means anything.  Thanks again for being to willing to discuss these matters as I've gathered that it's not really something that you talk about alot.

 

This last post was the one that really helped things click for me.  I think now I can understand where you are coming from.  Thanks again.

Thank you. And you are welcome. And yeah, it wasn't until the GaymerX thing that I even started talking about it, and that was due to emotions getting the better of me. 

 

I dunno if this'll make you feel better, but despite what Gaider said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Merrill can't be demisexual or only sexually attracted once emotional attraction takes hold.

 

Realise that a good number of people don't all have the same set of definitions at hand to describe a thing. Hell, a good number of people don't get there's something apart from being completely gay or completely het. Even here, people have different definitions for the same exact words. So, despite referring to her as bisexual, removing ambiguity in the sense that her sexuality does not change based on someone's choices in CC, it can still mean that she's warms up to people romantically the same way you've perceived before.

I suppose. You do make a good point, and I know there is different definitions of the same word for different people and contexts. But there was something about the way he went about it and some of the things they said that just felt...wrong to me. 

 

 

Yeah, I think I agree with you on this Krytie.  Now that I'm becoming more familiar with the terms "pansexual" and "demisexual", I think that I can start to form my own "working definitions" of how I see these terms.  For me, pansexuality is a type of bisexuality.  It's a more "liberal" or "open" form of the idea that a person is attracted to multiple genders, without being limited to a binary.  To bring it back to DA, I would say that Zevran, Isabela, Anders, and Iron Bull might all be pansexual (specifically Anders and IB).

 

Demisexuality, to me, is more of a modifier.  As in, it's not necessarily a sexual orientation on its own.  It's the way in which sexual or physical attraction occurs for some people.  A person could be heterosexual and demisexual (or any other sexual orientation and demisexual).  So to bring it back to DA, I could very easily see Merrrill as a bisexual demisexual.  She needs an emotional connection in order for attraction to happen, but her attraction isn't limited to only one gender.

 

I see a parallel between 'demisexualilty' and 'transexuality' in the fact that they are not necessarily sexual orientations on their own.  You can be a heterosexual, demisexual, transexual wo/man.  However, they seem to get lumped into the sexual orientation category because they are "deviants" from the "norm" (hopefully, you see how I'm using those words). 

 

This whole conversation has been fascinating to me.  I love learning about stuff like this and it's interesting to see how we can use the characters from DA as a way to highlight concepts.  Very cool stuff.

Just felt that I should alert you that apparently when people do what you by attaching demisexual to another orientation, the demi goes first. So for your Merrill example, instead of bisexual demisexual, it is demibisexual. I only know that by looking it up on the Aven wiki page about it, so I don't know for sure. 

 

As for the rest, that is one reason I still use SA when describing me since I don't know if demi is it or just a part of it, since it can be used as a sexual orientation or a modifier. 

[CuriousArtemis]

Putting a name to what you are helps you feel normal instead of weird, and it gives you a way to connect to other people like you.    

 

This is so true! I had been feeling particularly depressed the day I stumbled upon the Gender Wiki page for the word "androgyne." When I read it, this surge of euphoric happiness spread over me, and I just kept thinking, that's me! that's me! that's me!!!

 

In the past I probably scoffed at all the news terms, too, but finding "your" term, or just a term that makes you go, huh, I am not a freak? I am an actual thing? is a life-changing experience.

[RevilFox]

As to the LGBTQ+ thing, me and some of my LGBT+ friends used to joke that that's how they were going to take over the world, by taking over the alphabet one letter at a time.

[Hellion Rex]

As to the LGBTQ+ thing, me and some of my LGBT+ friends used to joke that that's how they were going to take over the world, by taking over the alphabet one letter at a time.

I think we are up to "LGBTQQIP2SAA" and I have not a freaking clue what all those letters entail.

[DaySeeker]

That is why I like queer, plus it is the thing we all have in common, a feeling of strangeness when we are young.