3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike3207]

One of the things that goes into the decision to spare him or kill him-at least for me-is the player's decision on whether you think Ferelden will need Loghain in the future. I've made the decision he's a skilled military commander who cannot be easily replaced, and whose services may well be needed by Ferelden again in the future. I can't deny he has committed crimes that he deserves punishment for, and making him a Warden and him losing his titles is sufficient punishment-at least for me.

 

Also-pretty impressive this thread has gone 100 pages.

[Aimi]

Also-pretty impressive this thread has gone 100 pages.

100 pages of going around in circles over a question that has no objective answer.

[Natureguy85]

This, and that, since Xetykins has read the books as well, there's no reason not to cite them. This thread's about whether we kill him or not, and why. If the books give us a better understanding of the character, why shouldn't we reference them, especially if the person we're talking to has also read them? And that part was mostly about Xetykins assertion that "in the game all his deeds did not point out to the same man on the books. Not a single trace.", even though there's plenty you can cite to show that his actions in both are consistent.

 

Generally speaking, Natureguy85, I'd agree with you about side media. But sometimes you get a character cast in a role where you can't take the time in game to fully explore their backstory and find out why they do what they do. Loghain serves well enough as an antagonist in the game, and for those that want more, the option is there in the books.

 

Sure, citing the books makes sense if you want to expand that conversation and all participants have read them. My comment was more about game design. Information critical to understanding a character or making important decisions should be in the game.

 

 

That's a perfectly valid opinion, but the books are still canon so citing them is valid. You can choose to ignore out-game canon and base decisions only on in-game evidence, but then you're coming to incomplete conclusions. If you do want to go with just in-game evidence, there are still plenty of reasons to spare Loghain. The books help me support my claims; my claims are not made because of the books.

 

That's exactly the problem. Information critical to making important decisions should be in the game.

 

I also note you said "reasons to spare Loghain and the thread is titled "should Loghain live or die", but the conversation has sometimes been over whether or not Loghain deserves to die. These are actually two separate things. Riordan's argument is that Loghain can still be useful.

[Monica21]

That's exactly the problem. Information critical to making important decisions should be in the game.

 

I also not you said "reasons to spare Loghain and the thread is titled "should Loghain live or die", but the conversation has sometimes been over whether or not Loghain deserves to die. These are actually two separate things. Riordan's argument is that Loghain can still be useful.

 

Riordan's argument is nowhere near the books.

 

And if you want play semantics with the title of the thread, no matter what you do with Loghain he's going to die and he's going to die horribly. It's either now at the Landsmeet, a few days or weeks later killing the Archdemon, or dying years later in the Deep Roads. He loses his home, his family, and his country. Every sentence is a death sentence.

[Dean_the_Young]

100 pages of going around in circles over a question that has no objective answer.

 

Oh, there's an objective answer.

 

As a mortal human, Loghain should die. It's just a matter of testing it out by trying.

 

(He passes the test by staying dead.)

[Natureguy85]

Riordan's argument is nowhere near the books.

 

And if you want play semantics with the title of the thread, no matter what you do with Loghain he's going to die and he's going to die horribly. It's either now at the Landsmeet, a few days or weeks later killing the Archdemon, or dying years later in the Deep Roads. He loses his home, his family, and his country. Every sentence is a death sentence.

 

I never connected Riordan and the books. What's your point? It's not semantics; it's two entirely different questions.

 

That's a good point that he is doomed to die though. The game alone doesn't paint this picture, but having read the books, do you think he's a classical Tragic Hero?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

(He passes the test by staying dead.)

Give it two or three games.

[springacres]

Give it two or three games.

I wish I didn't have to agree, but considering people have complained about how BioWare handled Leliana, Oghren and Flemeth even when people did kill them in Origins... (Of the three of them, I've only ever killed Flemeth, but I know I've seen people complaining about Leliana's DA2 cameo and Oghren's reappearance in Awakening.)

[Elhanan]

I wish I didn't have to agree, but considering people have complained about how BioWare handled Leliana, Oghren and Flemeth even when people did kill them in Origins... (Of the three of them, I've only ever killed Flemeth, but I know I've seen people complaining about Leliana's DA2 cameo and Oghren's reappearance in Awakening.)

Thedian hint: When killing someone, best not select a spot heavy in spirits, lyrium, and holy ashes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I wish I didn't have to agree, but considering people have complained about how BioWare handled Leliana, Oghren and Flemeth even when people did kill them in Origins... (Of the three of them, I've only ever killed Flemeth, but I know I've seen people complaining about Leliana's DA2 cameo and Oghren's reappearance in Awakening.)

You were told towards the start of the quest that Flemeth wasn't going to die of what you were doing, weren't you? Leiliana is more difficult, but still not too hard to swallow for the reasons Elhanan points out.

 

And Oghren... yeah. No. That really was stupid.

[Teligth]

You know even for all of the bs he put me though I was willing to forgive him. However, since it included losing Allistair I decided to kill him. I can understand that yes the signal flame came late and yes they were grossly outnumbered, but for him to then turn and blame the Wardens for the murder of King Cailen. I couldn't forgive that. As far as he knew, all the wardens died at Ostagar, so it was a character assassination of the wardens to save himself from any blame for leaving.

[Natureguy85]

I wish I didn't have to agree, but considering people have complained about how BioWare handled Leliana, Oghren and Flemeth even when people did kill them in Origins... (Of the three of them, I've only ever killed Flemeth, but I know I've seen people complaining about Leliana's DA2 cameo and Oghren's reappearance in Awakening.)

 

At least they explained Flemeth. Not only does Morrigan say Flemeth probably isn't dead, but she will discuss Flemeth in the Witch Hunt DLC. Then in Dragon Age 2, you meet Flemeth before the Warden kills her and then when you perform her ritual, she explains how she did it. Now, you can consider her explanation contrived, but we know Flemeth is strange and don't understand her nature or powers.

 

 

Thedian hint: When killing someone, best not select a spot heavy in spirits, lyrium, and holy ashes.

 

Why not? Is resurrection known to occur under these circumstances? This may be the explanation given, but that info wasn't given to the player at the time. A "she was only wounded and used the ashes" explanation would bother me slightly less.

 

You were told towards the start of the quest that Flemeth wasn't going to die of what you were doing, weren't you? Leiliana is more difficult, but still not too hard to swallow for the reasons Elhanan points out.

 

And Oghren... yeah. No. That really was stupid.

 

Actually I might buy Oghren's excuse slightly more because we know he is a Berzerker, trained to take a lot of wounds and pain. It's still weak, but plausible.

 

You know even for all of the bs he put me though I was willing to forgive him. However, since it included losing Allistair I decided to kill him. I can understand that yes the signal flame came late and yes they were grossly outnumbered, but for him to then turn and blame the Wardens for the murder of King Cailen. I couldn't forgive that. As far as he knew, all the wardens died at Ostagar, so it was a character assassination of the wardens to save himself from any blame for leaving.

 

I agree. Here, as is the case often in life, the cover up can say more than the action.

[Elhanan]

Why not? Is resurrection known to occur under these circumstances? This may be the explanation given, but that info wasn't given to the player at the time. A "she was only wounded and used the ashes" explanation would bother me slightly less.

Does not even need to be Raise Dead; could be Illusionary magic that made one believe that it occurred. Or a spirit interceding again. Or divine intervention. Etc.

And Oghren may be a tad off kilter, but is surely defined as well preserved.

[TEWR]

You were told towards the start of the quest that Flemeth wasn't going to die of what you were doing, weren't you? Leiliana is more difficult, but still not too hard to swallow for the reasons Elhanan points out.

 

And Oghren... yeah. No. That really was stupid.

 

Indeed, Morrigan tells you that she doubts Flemeth would truly be dead even then, and that it would take her some time to come back, but she knew Flemeth would come back. 

 

Even Flemeth's attitude towards it all is a giveaway, as she's not very concerned about it.

 

Leliana hasn't been given an actual explanation (despite Gaider saying "Don't worry, we have one and you'll get it!") but there are a lot of things that would allow one to theorize it.

[dragonflight288]

He could not leave until he had some excuse to hand his troops; would not be fitting the General. That is why the look of concern is so intense on the man at departure....

Ne sneers at Ser Cauthrian; not at the Darkspawn. Multiple witnesses, including some tortured for holding 'another version of the truth' state it clearly enough. Lore states it clearly enough. Etc.

Great man gone bad; normally lose him at the Landsmeet.

 

Few things, it's impossible to say what he was thinking at the exact moment he gave the order. Gaider did say that it was a split-second decision to retreat that he made as the beacon lit and that it wasn't pre-planned. If you don't want to take that, then we can just as easily say that Loghain's expression wasn't him sneering as he led a retreat but trying to hold it together and keep his composure, knowing full well what he was sacrificing, or something similar, and see a man who's torn about his decision. As Loghain tells Wynne, it wasn't just Cailan and the Wardens he was leaving behind, he had plenty of his own men down in that valley as well, and he knew their names and their families, and makes clear that he knew full well what he was giving up when he made that retreat. All we have on that moment is the devs word and the animation of him giving the order of his retreat, there is nothing there on his motivation. Merely us inferring it. 

 

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I don't think that he wanted to give his men an excuse works in the game, especially given the context of everything else that does happen. What I mean is, Loghain is not and never was a simple character. He's a complex, well-rounded one. One torn by regret over a hard choice, but knowing full well that he would make it again. I love his dialogue with our companions, and his back and forth with Wynne in RtO. 

 

The tortured nobles in Howe's dungeon in on Howe's head. Howe's actions are his own. There is no evidence linking Loghain to their torture and kidnapping, or approval of what Howe was doing. There's a reason at the Landsmeet that bringing up Howe isn't the most effective tactic. Sure, it helps with that young man's father speaking out and bringing in the state of his sons legs, but Loghain's response is just as valid. Howe's actions are his own and Loghain cannot be convicted for another man's actions. 

[Natureguy85]

Does not even need to be Raise Dead; could be Illusionary magic that made one believe that it occurred. Or a spirit interceding again. Or divine intervention. Etc.

And Oghren may be a tad off kilter, but is surely defined as well preserved.

 

Divine intervention I could get behind because that could be used later, as long as it is in fact used later. The other things are just terrible hand waves, especially when you've already established the Ashes.

[dragonflight288]

Divine intervention I could get behind because that could be used later, as long as it is in fact used later. The other things are just terrible hand waves, especially when you've already established the Ashes.

 

This post reminded me of this. 

 

 

I can wave my hand too!

[springacres]

You were told towards the start of the quest that Flemeth wasn't going to die of what you were doing, weren't you? Leiliana is more difficult, but still not too hard to swallow for the reasons Elhanan points out.

 

And Oghren... yeah. No. That really was stupid.

Yeah, I get Flemeth's magical reincarnation for all the reasons that have been stated already.  Leliana and Oghren... like I said, I have yet to kill them in any playthroughs.  I don't do mean characters well.  But from what I've heard, their magical reappearances scream "plot hole!"

 

I just hope they won't try any of that with Loghain, though.  That would leave a plot hole big enough to drive a double-decker bus through.

Modifié par springacres, 09 février 2015 - 06:43 .

[Elhanan]

Few things, it's impossible to say what he was thinking at the exact moment he gave the order. Gaider did say that it was a split-second decision to retreat that he made as the beacon lit and that it wasn't pre-planned. If you don't want to take that, then we can just as easily say that Loghain's expression wasn't him sneering as he led a retreat but trying to hold it together and keep his composure, knowing full well what he was sacrificing, or something similar, and see a man who's torn about his decision. As Loghain tells Wynne, it wasn't just Cailan and the Wardens he was leaving behind, he had plenty of his own men down in that valley as well, and he knew their names and their families, and makes clear that he knew full well what he was giving up when he made that retreat. All we have on that moment is the devs word and the animation of him giving the order of his retreat, there is nothing there on his motivation. Merely us inferring it. 
 
We are all entitled to our opinions, but I don't think that he wanted to give his men an excuse works in the game, especially given the context of everything else that does happen. What I mean is, Loghain is not and never was a simple character. He's a complex, well-rounded one. One torn by regret over a hard choice, but knowing full well that he would make it again. I love his dialogue with our companions, and his back and forth with Wynne in RtO. 
 
The tortured nobles in Howe's dungeon in on Howe's head. Howe's actions are his own. There is no evidence linking Loghain to their torture and kidnapping, or approval of what Howe was doing. There's a reason at the Landsmeet that bringing up Howe isn't the most effective tactic. Sure, it helps with that young man's father speaking out and bringing in the state of his sons legs, but Loghain's response is just as valid. Howe's actions are his own and Loghain cannot be convicted for another man's actions.

At the end, he is responsible; for his men and their actions which includes Howe. He allowed Howe to hire the Crows, and rewarded him even after the events uncovered at the Cousland estate. He allowed Howe more power, access, and influence after further revelations are made of this serpents actions. Toss in the slavery, poisoning, war atrocities against the Bannorn, and other crimes, Loghain earns his silver plate neckwear fairly easily.

And this man of complexity is given a canonical hour of extra time in which to form a plan. But rather the one that might save the Wardens, the King, and his own men, he chooses the one for escape. He is either a murderer, or is proven to be a failure as Commander and tactician. And it is mostly due to his hatred of an enemy not even on the field of battle that day.

[Callidus Thorn]

Sure, citing the books makes sense if you want to expand that conversation and all participants have read them. My comment was more about game design. Information critical to understanding a character or making important decisions should be in the game.

 

With Loghain it wouldn't work. Take Loghain's promise as an example. Since everyone who witnessed it is dead by the time of DA:O, the only way we could learn of it is from Loghain, who has no reason to do so, having no reason to think we'd have believed him. The same goes for his betrayal of Maric and Rowan, none but they knew of it, and Loghain's role of antagonist makes him, from the players perspective, an unreliable source of information.

 

Loghain is well written enough that even without the books there's discussion about whether or not to simply kill him. He's a villain you want to hate, but still manages to act for the right reasons.

 

 

@Elhanan: Considering that we already know they're pushing ahead without the presence of Arl Eamon's forces(courtesy of Cailan), the King fighting on the front line, its clear that while Loghain might be planning the strategy, this is not necessarily a battle of his choosing. In the Return to Ostagar dlc, we're told, both by Loghain and the King's guard that it wasn't a battle that could be won. Calling him "a failure as a Commander and a tactician" is more than a little excessive for not performing a miracle on demand, in a battle that no-one thought they would actually win. We see clearly how reckless Cailan was, ignoring everyone's advice and standing with the Grey Wardens, even knowing that it was a battle they couldn't win. The only failure of Loghain at Ostagar is not curbing his King's hunger for glory.

[Tremere]

At the end, he is responsible; for his men and their actions which includes Howe. He allowed Howe to hire the Crows, and rewarded him even after the events uncovered at the Cousland estate. He allowed Howe more power, access, and influence after further revelations are made of this serpents actions. Toss in the slavery, poisoning, war atrocities against the Bannorn, and other crimes, Loghain earns his silver plate neckwear fairly easily.

And this man of complexity is given a canonical hour of extra time in which to form a plan. But rather the one that might save the Wardens, the King, and his own men, he chooses the one for escape. He is either a murderer, or is proven to be a failure as Commander and tactician. And it is mostly due to his hatred of an enemy not even on the field of battle that day.

 

 

[Elhanan]

... 
 
@Elhanan: Considering that we already know they're pushing ahead without the presence of Arl Eamon's forces(courtesy of Cailan), the King fighting on the front line, its clear that while Loghain might be planning the strategy, this is not necessarily a battle of his choosing. In the Return to Ostagar dlc, we're told, both by Loghain and the King's guard that it wasn't a battle that could be won. Calling him "a failure as a Commander and a tactician" is more than a little excessive for not performing a miracle on demand, in a battle that no-one thought they would actually win. We see clearly how reckless Cailan was, ignoring everyone's advice and standing with the Grey Wardens, even knowing that it was a battle they couldn't win. The only failure of Loghain at Ostagar is not curbing his King's hunger for glory.

The King's guard is not an effective witness as he admittedly fled the field and leaving his station. And I have always contended that Loghain earnestly believes he is justified for every action he has made, and issues no regrets until defeated at the Landsmeet. And while Loghain says that it was not winnable, other witnesses in the games state otherwise.

While the force he had was not optimal, it was the best location according to the lore in game, his plans, and with seemingly enough troops including his own to create a major problem for the Darkspawn, as it took them so long to continue the Blight. I cannot help but imagine how strong this defensive position might have done if more had not quit the field.

[Tremere]

The King's guard is not an effective witness as he admittedly fled the field and leaving his station. And I have always contended that Loghain earnestly believes he is justified for every action he has made, and issues no regrets until defeated at the Landsmeet. And while Loghain says that it was not winnable, other witnesses in the games state otherwise.

While the force he had was not optimal, it was the best location according to the lore in game, his plans, and with seemingly enough troops including his own to create a major problem for the Darkspawn, as it took them so long to continue the Blight. I cannot help but imagine how strong this defensive position might have done if more had not quit the field.

From the moment I heard that guard say that Cailan knew the battle was unwinnable, I always considered it semi-retconned information that was only used to sell the DLC, because it made absolutely no sense. Besides, did Cailan (the Gloryhound) strike anyone as a character who possessed a deep level of insight or premonition? What's more, why would the king give a key to a chest with such damning evidence to anyone? Of course, as I've said on many occasions that there's no in-game evidence to justify the many subjective conclusions we've all imagined in regards to this particular subject. With that said, I always draw my conclusions based on my subjective view of in-game events, which ultimately leads to Loghain losing his head... Every time.

[Callidus Thorn]

The King's guard is not an effective witness as he admittedly fled the field and leaving his station. And I have always contended that Loghain earnestly believes he is justified for every action he has made, and issues no regrets until defeated at the Landsmeet. And while Loghain says that it was not winnable, other witnesses in the games state otherwise.

While the force he had was not optimal, it was the best location according to the lore in game, his plans, and with seemingly enough troops including his own to create a major problem for the Darkspawn, as it took them so long to continue the Blight. I cannot help but imagine how strong this defensive position might have done if more had not quit the field.

 

The King's guard actually tells us that Cailan knew they couldn't win. This isn't his opinion being discussed, it's what Cailan knew. So that's both Cailan and Loghain who knew it couldn't be won. Duncan and the other Grey Wardens probably knew it as well, since they were more aware of the size of the darkspawn presence than any.

 

As for what Loghain believed, doesn't he have to? Do you honestly think he saw anyone that he could have simply given power to to let them do the job? Anyone who could have done things better? Regrets can wait until Ferelden is secure, but if all the nobles start fighting over who leads then everyone's doomed.

 

The forces he had were outnumbered to begin with, and by that I mean the total number at Ostagar, not just Loghain's force. Ostagar fails miserably as a strong defensive location in light of the darkspawn tunneling into the Tower of Ishal. The cutscene of Cailan's death makes it look like those still fighting were surrounded by darkspawn, so for all we know Cailan's position was completely compromised. And lets not forget that the plan was for Loghain to flank the darkspawn, not directly reinforce the king's position, so there's no guarantee they could have held out for long enough anyway. The defensive position was to lure them in, leaving their flank vulnerable. Loghain's attack would have eased the pressure on Cailn's position, but would not have removed it completely, so they might all still have died anyway.

[Elhanan]

The King's guard actually tells us that Cailan knew they couldn't win. This isn't his opinion being discussed, it's what Cailan knew. So that's both Cailan and Loghain who knew it couldn't be won. Duncan and the other Grey Wardens probably knew it as well, since they were more aware of the size of the darkspawn presence than any.
 
As for what Loghain believed, doesn't he have to? Do you honestly think he saw anyone that he could have simply given power to to let them do the job? Anyone who could have done things better? Regrets can wait until Ferelden is secure, but if all the nobles start fighting over who leads then everyone's doomed.
 
The forces he had were outnumbered to begin with, and by that I mean the total number at Ostagar, not just Loghain's force. Ostagar fails miserably as a strong defensive location in light of the darkspawn tunneling into the Tower of Ishal. The cutscene of Cailan's death makes it look like those still fighting were surrounded by darkspawn, so for all we know Cailan's position was completely compromised. And lets not forget that the plan was for Loghain to flank the darkspawn, not directly reinforce the king's position, so there's no guarantee they could have held out for long enough anyway. The defensive position was to lure them in, leaving their flank vulnerable. Loghain's attack would have eased the pressure on Cailn's position, but would not have removed it completely, so they might all still have died anyway.

No; all we know is what the King's guard says; not what Cailan actually states. He may actually believe it, but that does not make it fact (see Loghain not needing Wardens).

The Darkspawn infiltration of the Tower was a mistake; one that was discovered, but left unattended. Loghain again.

The cut-scene of Duncan and Cailan falling is not at the same moment as the lit fire; time had lapsed. This was the time in which Loghain's forces are retreating, and Alistair and the Warden are witnessing their demise from above.

Loghain failed. He might not have intentionally allowed Cailan to die (though I believe he did), but the results are still his to bear. And all he seems to do is to allow Howe to make matters even worse.