The Darkspawn infiltration of the Tower was a mistake; one that was discovered, but left unattended. Loghain again.
We don't know that Loghain had discovered the darkspawn infiltration of the Tower. What we know is that Loghain sealed the Tower because he knew there were tunnels under it and that he said he didn't know how far and where they went. We don't know that he was trying to cover anything up.
No; all we know is what the King's guard says; not what Cailan actually states. He may actually believe it, but that does not make it fact (see Loghain not needing Wardens).
I could say the same of those in the game that say Ostagar could have been won.
The Darkspawn infiltration of the Tower was a mistake; one that was discovered, but left unattended. Loghain again.
Which is pretty academic since the fact that they've tunnelled in means that they're fighting on a battlefield the darkspawn have prepared. Which is the last place they should be fighting.
The cut-scene of Duncan and Cailan falling is not at the same moment as the lit fire; time had lapsed. This was the time in which Loghain's forces are retreating, and Alistair and the Warden are witnessing their demise from above.
Well, either the Wardens were watching for a very long time, or Cailan's force was doomed before the beacon was lit, and I'm betting on the latter. Without any real frame of reference it could've been half an hour, or it could've been half a minute. But the cutscene and the compromised Tower suggest that the darkspawn might have come from behind as well, in which case they never stood a chance.
Loghain failed. He might not have intentionally allowed Cailan to die (though I believe he did), but the results are still his to bear. And all he seems to do is to allow Howe to make matters even worse.
We actually see Cailan overruling Loghain, forcing the battle without waiting for all their forces to arrive, insisting on fighting in the most dangerous position possible, and being more concerned with legends than tactics(particularly dangerous when we see him forcing the matter with Loghain) and yet you place none of the blame on Cailan? It's solely Loghain's fault, and no blame falls on anyone else? Why not blame the Chantry for blocking the use of magic instead of the compromised Tower as the signal for Loghain to attack? Or Duncan and the other Grey Wardens for keeping their secrets on what's needed to stop a Blight? And yet you place all the blame on a character who we actually see get overruled and have his options curtailed. You're basically blaming a man for failing to run when someone's tied his feet together.
I could say the same of those in the game that say Ostagar could have been won.
Well, either the Wardens were watching for a very long time, or Cailan's force was doomed before the beacon was lit, and I'm betting on the latter. Without any real frame of reference it could've been half an hour, or it could've been half a minute. But the cutscene and the compromised Tower suggest that the darkspawn might have come from behind as well, in which case they never stood a chance.
We actually see Cailan overruling Loghain, forcing the battle without waiting for all their forces to arrive, insisting on fighting in the most dangerous position possible, and being more concerned with legends than tactics(particularly dangerous when we see him forcing the matter with Loghain) and yet you place none of the blame on Cailan? It's solely Loghain's fault, and no blame falls on anyone else? Why not blame the Chantry for blocking the use of magic instead of the compromised Tower as the signal for Loghain to attack? Or Duncan and the other Grey Wardens for keeping their secrets on what's needed to stop a Blight? And yet you place all the blame on a character who we actually see get overruled and have his options curtailed. You're basically blaming a man for failing to run when someone's tied his feet together.
We don't know that Loghain had discovered the darkspawn infiltration of the Tower. What we know is that Loghain sealed the Tower because he knew there were tunnels under it and that he said he didn't know how far and where they went. We don't know that he was trying to cover anything up.
Quite true. But the gaping access was left unattended, while still allowing the tower to be used as a vital part of the plan. I never have thought Loghain was allied with the Darkspawn; simply neglected in another task that led to the defeat.
I will agree that Loghain screwed up there.
It's possible that gaping hole was a lot smaller and he did have men to secure it. We only see the hole after they already broke through, and they had an ogre.
They underestimate the darkspawn threat, an ogre breaks through, they get overwhelmed and the tower is taken almost as soon as the battle starts. Kind of like how Helms Deep had a huge hole in the wall blown open from a small drain in the movie.
Now, I'm not saying that's how it happened, but I do think it's foolish to assume that hole was there the whole time since the first time we see the inside is after the darkspawn took it.
While true, the account of history does seem to favor Alistair, Morrigan, Flemeth, Aveline, Wynne, Carver, etc. And seeing as Loghain is more influential, the lore should state otherwise.
The King died at Ostagar when Loghain retreated. The only way history would favour him is if he saved Ferelden. As he didn't, and actually opposed those who did, it's inevitable that history would be against him, regardless of The Warden's decision at the Landsmeet. Anything else would have been bad writing.
It had to be enough time for Loghain to retreat, or they would have been overrun, too.
Not necessarily. We know they couldn't see the battle directly, or the signal wouldn't have been needed, so we know he had some distance and concealment. And with the darkspawn sensing the Grey Wardens, their focus would have been squarely on the King's force. And as we see in the cutsence, Loghain's force begins moving extremely quickly.
No, we saw Calian choose his position, but was going over the plans of Loghain. And while Cailan did not wait for Uncle, Loghain would not wait for Orlesian aid. Calilan died for his errors; Loghain still bears responsibility and should pay for his own, and does in my games.
Do you honestly think that Cailan would have waited for the Orlesians when he wouldn't wait for Arl Eamon? He made that offer purely because he knew Loghain would turn it down, that seemed rather obvious in the conversation.
From the moment I heard that guard say that Cailan knew the battle was unwinnable, I always considered it semi-retconned information that was only used to sell the DLC, because it made absolutely no sense. Besides, did Cailan (the Gloryhound) strike anyone as a character who possessed a deep level of insight or premonition? What's more, why would the king give a key to a chest with such damning evidence to anyone? Of course, as I've said on many occasions that there's no in-game evidence to justify the many subjective conclusions we've all imagined in regards to this particular subject. With that said, I always draw my conclusions based on my subjective view of in-game events, which ultimately leads to Loghain losing his head... Every time.
It sounds very wierd to me that Cailan would fight a battle he knows to be unwinnable. He wants a glorious battle to end the blight that the bards will sing about for ages. I get that. He pretty much says this when you first meet him. Reckless yes but suicidal? I find it very hard to believe he would willingly fight if he really knew that it cant be won.
It's possible that gaping hole was a lot smaller and he did have men to secure it. We only see the hole after they already broke through, and they had an ogre.
They underestimate the darkspawn threat, an ogre breaks through, they get overwhelmed and the tower is taken almost as soon as the battle starts. Kind of like how Helms Deep had a huge hole in the wall blown open from a small drain in the movie.
Now, I'm not saying that's how it happened, but I do think it's foolish to assume that hole was there the whole time since the first time we see the inside is after the darkspawn took it.
One of the things that goes into the decision to spare him or kill him-at least for me-is the player's decision on whether you think Ferelden will need Loghain in the future. I've made the decision he's a skilled military commander who cannot be easily replaced, and whose services may well be needed by Ferelden again in the future. I can't deny he has committed crimes that he deserves punishment for, and making him a Warden and him losing his titles is sufficient punishment-at least for me.
Also-pretty impressive this thread has gone 100 pages.
If he lives as a warden, his only job is to fight darkspawn. He cant get involved in any other conflicts.
I see it like this: Ferelden NEEDS to let go of him. The people cant expect him to always be there to solve their problems. They must learn to solve them themselves and find new people to do the job.
I try and assume nothing since my days in the military; still get hoisted from time to time, though. But in this case, we know the Tower is closed for at least a full day while we explore the Wilds, and night has fallen by the time we return to it.
And they did have an Ogre; we had elevated terrain, fire, oil, etc. The Darkspawn were underestimated; another feather for those in leadership roles. Etc.
It again comes down to responsibility, and how it is managed in the future. Loghain continues to allow things to become worse. This says little to me about regret, repentance, restitution, or even asking for mercy. It says more about hate filled pride.
Uh huh. Right. I can't speak for military experience, but I'm not seeing why Loghain has to have all the blame beyond willing it onto him. No one expected the darkspawn to attack. The in-game dialogue says they found some lower chambers and the tower was sealed off while they explored and secured them.
For all we know, the lack of preparation, or vigilance on the part of Loghain's men in the tower may have had nothing to do with him and everything to do with the soldiers themselves not expecting any action and thus were caught with the trousers down, so to speak.
And the soldiers not expecting an attack, no messenger sent to Loghain to inform him the tower fell, and everyone expecting the tower to be a boring post with no action may have also had the soldiers and the whole thing with losing the tower and the tunneling, which is a tried and true medieval tactic to weaken the structural integrity of fortresses, may simply be a few soldiers got lazy and screwed the pooch for everyone else.
Add in that the Chantry would not let magic be used instead of the tower, Cailan's insistence for a war the bards would sing of for centuries, the wardens secrets, and only seven mages (unless the warden is a mage himself, then eight) were actually at Ostagar, not all of Ferelden's forces were mobilized, they were outnumbered considerably but no one in the camp actually knew the size/strength of the darkspawn because the scouts reports didn't have a complete picture, and it's pretty clear that no one, maybe not even Duncan, knew the full strength of the horde and so everyone underestimated him.
Walking around Ostagar, you'll hear soldiers wondering where in the world the darkspawn came from. It's in the lore that after the fourth blight, the entire surface just decided that darkspawn were extinct because so many were killed in that final battle. And in pretty much every origin, save the dwarf ones, no one is taking the darkspawn seriously because no one, save the wardens, think it's an actual blight.
I don't see any hate-filled pride. Sure, Loghain is a proud man and thinks he's the only one who can protect Ferelden, but when you take into account that Ferelden nobles start wars with each other over trees, it's kind of hard not to think that way. So he is proud, paranoid, hates Orlesians, but that doesn't translate into plotting to kill Cailan and usurp his throne.
If he lives as a warden, his only job is to fight darkspawn. He cant get involved in any other conflicts.
I see it like this: Ferelden NEEDS to let go of him. The people cant expect him to always be there to solve their problems. They must learn to solve them themselves and find new people to do the job.
That would be nice. Nobles learning to set aside their own petty politics or interests and uniting to face a problem.
We don't know that Loghain had discovered the darkspawn infiltration of the Tower. What we know is that Loghain sealed the Tower because he knew there were tunnels under it and that he said he didn't know how far and where they went. We don't know that he was trying to cover anything up.
No... We know that they discovered the tunnels. No mention was made of the tunnels being sealed off... Just the tower itself. In fact, we could justifiably surmise that he didn't seal them off, judging by circumstances in Return to Ostagar. Granted, he may have posted guards there, but clearly they weren't much of a deterrent considering how quickly the tower was overrun.
It sounds very wierd to me that Cailan would fight a battle he knows to be unwinnable. He wants a glorious battle to end the blight that the bards will sing about for ages. I get that. He pretty much says this when you first meet him. Reckless yes but suicidal? I find it very hard to believe he would willingly fight if he really knew that it cant be won.
*nods* My sentiments exactly.
No... We know that they discovered the tunnels. No mention was made of the tunnels being sealed off... Just the tower itself. In fact, we could justifiably surmise that he didn't seal them off, judging by circumstances in Return to Ostagar. Granted, he may have posted guards there, but clearly they weren't much of a deterrent considering how quickly the tower was overrun.
... what I said was that Loghain sealed the Tower. I didn't say anything about the tunnels themselves being sealed off; in fact I'd gotten the impression that he'd had men exploring them instead of having them bricked over. As for the guards not being much of a deterrent... well, we are talking about darkspawn here. They have mages and at least one ogre in the Tower. That'll do it.
Uh huh. Right. I can't speak for military experience, but I'm not seeing why Loghain has to have all the blame beyond willing it onto him. No one expected the darkspawn to attack. The in-game dialogue says they found some lower chambers and the tower was sealed off while they explored and secured them.
What is likely is that Loghain's men found the same entrance to tunnels that you run out of during RtO and then realized, "Well, this is right under the tower. We should check this out." So they checked it out.
And there are Ferelden soldiers there. You see hurlocks and genlocks fighting outside the tower but you can't save any of the soldiers in time. If you're a mage, a random soldier joins your party and if you're not a mage, a mage joins. So I was under the impression that Loghain did leave men back at the Tower to cover it during the battle.
And there are Ferelden soldiers there. You see hurlocks and genlocks fighting outside the tower but you can't save any of the soldiers in time.
I can. But then I usually play on Easy.
I can. But then I usually play on Easy.
... me too.... 
I suck at combat.
If he lives as a warden, his only job is to fight darkspawn. He can't get involved in any other conflicts.
I see it like this: Ferelden NEEDS to let go of him. The people cant expect him to always be there to solve their problems. They must learn to solve them themselves and find new people to do the job.
I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that he'd command an army again, He's the most skilled army commander Ferelden has, other than maybe the Warden and Cauthrien. We know the Warden disappears, so it's simply prudence to keep both him and Cauthrien around. It's not like there are ever going to be a lot of keen military minds in Ferelden.
I don't expect we'll agree on this though.
I can. But then I usually play on Easy.
Bastards usually die as soon as I come near them, even on Easy for that particular moment.
I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that he'd command an army again, He's the most skilled army commander Ferelden has, other than maybe the Warden and Cauthrien. We know the Warden disappears, so it's simply prudence to keep both him and Cauthrien around. It's not like there are ever going to be a lot of keen military minds in Ferelden.
I don't expect we'll agree on this though.
I just like how his story particularly comes up in Inquisition:
... what I said was that Loghain sealed the Tower. I didn't say anything about the tunnels themselves being sealed off; in fact I'd gotten the impression that he'd had men exploring them instead of having them bricked over. As for the guards not being much of a deterrent... well, we are talking about darkspawn here. They have mages and at least one ogre in the Tower. That'll do it.
I stand corrected... I suppose my passion got the best of me. I re-read your comment and indeed, you said "tower". Maker's breath, I even highlighted it... *smh* Mea culpa!
I stand corrected... I suppose my passion got the best of me. I re-read your comment and indeed, you said "tower". Maker's breath, I even highlighted it... *smh* Mea culpa!
I'd be lying if I'd said I hadn't done some embarrassing misreadings of my own occasionally.
I'd be lying if I'd said I hadn't done some embarrassing misreadings of my own occasionally.
Die. Either here or... later.
It basically congress down to him or Alistair. And I'm not abandoning my homey for Logain.
Fair enough.
I find Alistair's hissy fit unacceptable personally, and I lose a lot of respect for Alistar as a result.
It's funny. I like Alistiar but I don't respect him, and I spent a lot of time hating Loghain, but have come to respect him.
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