Fair enough.
I find Alistair's hissy fit unacceptable personally, and I lose a lot of respect for Alistar as a result.
It's funny. I like Alistiar but I don't respect him, and I spent a lot of time hating Loghain, but have come to respect him.
Generally, I agree whole-heartedly with Alistair, though I have not the same emotional attachment to those lost. Loghain chose to make it personal, and I am willing to return the same perspective in judgment.
It's one thing to act that way, and quite another to let your survivors guilt and losing control of your emotions make you look petty and childish in front of the entire court.
It's one thing to act that way, and quite another to let your survivors guilt and losing control of your emotions make you look petty and childish in front of the entire court.
I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that he'd command an army again, He's the most skilled army commander Ferelden has, other than maybe the Warden and Cauthrien. We know the Warden disappears, so it's simply prudence to keep both him and Cauthrien around. It's not like there are ever going to be a lot of keen military minds in Ferelden.
I don't expect we'll agree on this though.
This is true, and it's one reason I've always spared Cauthrien in my playthroughs. She's always come off to me as a decent, honorable person, in spite of her loyalty to a paranoid, power-mad man like Loghain.
This is true, and it's one reason I've always spared Cauthrien in my playthroughs. She's always come off to me as a decent, honorable person, in spite of her loyalty to a paranoid, power-mad man like Loghain.
I confess to having used the exploit to kill her twice for duplicate blades. Plus the Prison Escape must be one of the funnier quests in the game.
ESPECIALLY with Oghren/Zev or Dog/Zev. XDDD
The Codex completionist in me wishes that eventually I could manage to kill her for the blade she drops, but so far I haven't been able to. Like I said, it's hard to fault her for being loyal, even if my characters find her loyalty at least somewhat misguided.
ESPECIALLY with Oghren/Zev or Dog/Zev. XDDD
The Codex completionist in me wishes that eventually I could manage to kill her for the blade she drops, but so far I haven't been able to. Like I said, it's hard to fault her for being loyal, even if my characters find her loyalty at least somewhat misguided.
I've managed it several times. The only thing I've never been able to do (or one of the few, since I'm not 100% sure that there's nothing else I've completely refused to do) is abandon Redcliffe.
Try doing as evil a playthrough as you can before you meet her. By that point one knight who may or may not deserve to die seems pretty trivial. (Except in terms of the actual threat she poses. Be prepared for a tough fight. My first time through killing her eventually devolved into a duel with Sten where I had to constantly spam potions, and I only managed to do that well by luring her into Anora's "guest" room where only two of her soldiers were willing to follow.)
ESPECIALLY with Oghren/Zev or Dog/Zev. XDDD
The Codex completionist in me wishes that eventually I could manage to kill her for the blade she drops, but so far I haven't been able to. Like I said, it's hard to fault her for being loyal, even if my characters find her loyalty at least somewhat misguided.
I've managed it several times. The only thing I've never been able to do (or one of the few, since I'm not 100% sure that there's nothing else I've completely refused to do) is abandon Redcliffe.
Try doing as evil a playthrough as you can before you meet her. By that point one knight who may or may not deserve to die seems pretty trivial. (Except in terms of the actual threat she poses. Be prepared for a tough fight. My first time through killing her eventually devolved into a duel with Sten where I had to constantly spam potions, and I only managed to do that well by luring her into Anora's "guest" room where only two of her soldiers were willing to follow.)
One more thing to leave to my male dwarven noble playthrough, then.
One more thing to leave to my male dwarven noble playthrough, then.
I think my male DN persuaded her to stand aside. My female DN was planning to kill Loghain and persuade Alistair to basically let her run the country (my inspiration was KoP) so Cauthrien kinda had to go just to be on the safe side.
Couldn't do that to my F!Aeducan. She might end up double crossing her brother, but that's about as mean as I can see her getting.
My M!Aeducan, though, could probably give Howe a run for his money when it comes to being an arrogant jacka**. He'll probably spare Loghain, then give Morrigan the middle finger and tell Mac Tir to make the final blow because, hey, one less human noble to butt heads with.
Poor Anora to watch the death of his father in that way because of that child of Alistair, no thanks if Loghain deserve to die it will be vs the Archedemon.
Poor Anora to watch the death of his father in that way because of that child of Alistair, no thanks if Loghain deserve to die it will be vs the Archedemon.
That's actually the part that almost convinced my blood-mage-and-slaver-hating, elf mage Warden from the Denerim Alienage to spare him. I've probably said this before, but there's a part of him that still wishes he could have found it in him to let Loghain live.
My M!Aeducan, though, could probably give Howe a run for his money when it comes to being an arrogant jacka**. He'll probably spare Loghain, then give Morrigan the middle finger and tell Mac Tir to make the final blow because, hey, one less human noble to butt heads with.
My M!Aeducan spared Loghain, because **** it, it's not like he hadn't made some progress making enemies into friends with Bhelen and Zevran. (In fact Umbra even decided to let Zevran handle the trial by combat. If I wanted I could even dig up the screenshot of the cocktail of nasty things Zevran injected Loghain with during that fight.) He didn't let Loghain die at Fort Drakon either, because that would have meant turning down his best chance of survival and the sex that made it possible.
My Wardens, to date, have all had a hard time blaming Zevran for trying to kill them. He comes across as a tool Loghain used (and would have thrown away as soon as he or Howe no longer found him useful). But as far as they know, Loghain isn't anyone's tool. The blame is on his head for his own actions.
My Wardens, to date, have all had a hard time blaming Zevran for trying to kill them. He comes across as a tool Loghain used (and would have thrown away as soon as he or Howe no longer found him useful). But as far as they know, Loghain isn't anyone's tool. The blame is on his head for his own actions.
One more thing to leave to my male dwarven noble playthrough, then.
I just knock Cauthrien's ass out cold and then loot her body before I throw the fight.
Headcanon that her wounds are treated after the battle, thus explaining why she'll show up at the palace again. It's what I always do.
I sort of wonder how the events of the Landsmeet impact Gwaren and its people in the event you do kill him and put Anora in a tower.I can't see the Gwaren aristocracy or people reacting very well to the events that happen to the Mac Tir family. I can't think it being taken very well if they brought a new noble family in to rule Gwaren. Compare it to the events in Amaranthine X10, in my thinking.
If it were up to me, take Anora's oath and send her back to Gwaren as Teyrna. Much better for everyone, all around.
I sort of wonder how the events of the Landsmeet impact Gwaren and its people in the event you do kill him and put Anora in a tower.I can't see the Gwaren aristocracy or people reacting very well to the events that happen to the Mac Tir family. I can't think it being taken very well if they brought a new noble family in to rule Gwaren. Compare it to the events in Amaranthine X10, in my thinking.
If it were up to me, take Anora's oath and send her back to Gwaren as Teyrna. Much better for everyone, all around.
It might be that unhardened Alistair manages to get that oath from Anora, and then he does exactly that. Of course, I'm not saying it definitely happens, since Anora seems to be pretty determined not to bow to Alistair. And of course if he's hardened he implies that he intends to execute her after the Blight if he manages not to die it, with the possibility that he will die being the only reason he's letting her live long enough to find out.
I imagine the situation in Gwaren may end up like Amaranthine for the Warden in the aftermath of Howe's death. Vassals who hated him and vassals who loved him, power struggles, political bs, and the new ruler has a huge mess on their hands.
You mean like dressing down the King at a war council before battle? Or a like display before the Bannorn? Or at the Landsmeet?
While Alistair may have lost points for this outburst, Loghain remains in debt all the way to his baggy eyes.
Loghain at least can be made to see sense and his post recruitment behavior shows incredible progress and understanding. No such luck with Alistair. And I wouldn't be so hard on him if it hadn't been him who said again & again that Wardens need to do ANYTHING to stop the Blight. (He point blank says that often extreme measures are needed. Only to forget that very conveniently when he doesn't get to kill someone in front of their child. To avenge the loss of HIS father figure, how's that for bleedin' irony?)
I imagine the situation in Gwaren may end up like Amaranthine for the Warden in the aftermath of Howe's death. Vassals who hated him and vassals who loved him, power struggles, political bs, and the new ruler has a huge mess on their hands.
I do wish the political scene in the nations of Thedas was given more in-depth attention, because what would basically happen is that no matter what the teynir of Gwaren passes to the crown, as Loghain is either dead or a Warden and Anora is either deposed -- which is basically another word for dead, realistically speaking -- or the Queen of Ferelden.
As it stands, it would pass to another family down the line, but I imagine that it is like Amaranthine to a degree. Loghain wasn't just a teyrn, he was a symbol. He represented the ideals of Ferelden, where hard work and loyalty paved the way for his ascent to a high nobleman's rank. He was as much representative of Ferelden as a Mabari was.
It's bound to exist that no matter how well-loved the replacement may have been from wherever they were, they're going to face resentment and scorn because they're not Loghain. The common folk may feel that with Loghain, it gave them hope. He was one of them. The nobility also probably enjoyed him because he fought for them. He was good to them. So power struggles would exist.
But a blue blood? Someone like my male Cousland in my "10 Wardens in the same universe" headcanon? Despite how loved the Couslands were, there's got to be some sort of rebellion going on that would need to be addressed. More so if it's an Elf in the role, as racism would still be rampant.
- Comparing Alistair's vengeful bloodlust to a general trying to talk sense into greenhorn of a king who is blinded by his gloryhounding idiocy really doesn't convince me.
- Could he have been more diplomatic with the Bannorn? Sure. But I'm 100% convinced they'd have started that war anyhow.
- The Landsmeet was politics. And if the Warden loses, Eamon doesn't just bow down either. Still in no way comparable to Alistair's self centered, childish behavior.
Loghain at least can be made to see sense and his post recruitment behavior shows incredible progress and understanding. No such luck with Alistair. And I wouldn't be so hard on him if it hadn't been him who said again & again that Wardens need to do ANYTHING to stop the Blight. (He point blank says that often extreme measures are needed. Only to forget that very conveniently when he doesn't get to kill someone in front of their child. To avenge the loss of HIS father figure, how's that for bleedin' irony?)
Words are so easily said. Its easy to say the words but its a totally different thing to actually act according to those words. Some people say the words just for show. Alistair has been a warden for three months barely if I remember right. He propably hasnt fought much darkspawn or done any other warden stuff so the reality hasnt been fully realized. Alistair in DA:I is a different person. He is less idealistic about the wardens.
With all this said, I dont believe in the wardens "ends justify the means" way of thinking. That attitude has more than once caused pretty bad things. In "the last flight" that attitude pretty much cost them the griffons. After everything that has happened, they really need to think again their actions and attitudes.
I fail to see how Alistair wanting Loghain dead is childish. Loghain has tried to KILL you all this time, committed bad things and made your life very difficult. You have to humiliate him and kick his ass before he finally starts to listen. You make it sound like Alistair has absolutely no real justified reasons to want Loghain dead.
He has lines he wont cross. My warden has lines he wont cross and drinking some darkspawn blood didnt change that. If the roles were reversed and it was Howe in loghain´s place with the same situation, damn right would my warden be furious. Difference would be that he would just kill Howe and be done with it. I dare say we all have lines we wont cross no matter what.
And now propably comes the moment when I take cover in a bunker...
It's not Alistair wanting to see Loghain dead is the childish part. It's his attitude if things start going in a way he doesn't want. It's his stepping forward to be king JUST to get Loghain executed. That is the very worst reason to want to ascend to the throne.
It's his willingness to abandon his duty and Ferelden to the blight because one man didn't die.
It's his working so hard to avenge Duncan and less to killing the archdemon.
Alistair wanting Loghain dead isn't childish. It's his attitude of taking the ball and going home if he doesn't get his way in front of the entire Landsmeet that is childish.
Loghain at least can be made to see sense and his post recruitment behavior shows incredible progress and understanding. No such luck with Alistair. And I wouldn't be so hard on him if it hadn't been him who said again & again that Wardens need to do ANYTHING to stop the Blight. (He point blank says that often extreme measures are needed. Only to forget that very conveniently when he doesn't get to kill someone in front of their child. To avenge the loss of HIS father figure, how's that for bleedin' irony?)
- Comparing Alistair's vengeful bloodlust to a general trying to talk sense into greenhorn of a king who is blinded by his gloryhounding idiocy really doesn't convince me.
- Could he have been more diplomatic with the Bannorn? Sure. But I'm 100% convinced they'd have started that war anyhow.
- The Landsmeet was politics. And if the Warden loses, Eamon doesn't just bow down either. Still in no way comparable to Alistair's self centered, childish behavior.
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