And yet, I choose the Pretender that has my back over the lawful Regent wishing to strike me there....
Loghain; a brilliant character, but still the villain.
You mean antagonist.
Villain carries with it a connotation of being certifiably evil and a thoroughbred bastard. Loghain is not that.
Howe is.
You mean antagonist.
Villain carries with it a connotation of being certifiably evil and a thoroughbred bastard. Loghain is not that.
Howe is.
Howe placed himself in those situations. It's common knowledge that Loghain is out leading his troops in the field, not just from Word of God but from what you hear from Bodahn/bartenders about the current events in the land. Howe took over Denerim on his own and before Loghain even arrived for the Landsmeet and thus was too much of a threat.
Loghain never rewarded that behavior. Howe took that for himself and then when Loghain was out in the field Howe decided to do things behind Loghain's back.
Howe placed himself in those situations. It's common knowledge that Loghain is out leading his troops in the field, not just from Word of God but from what you hear from Bodahn/bartenders about the current events in the land. Howe took over Denerim on his own and before Loghain even arrived for the Landsmeet and thus was too much of a threat.
Loghain never rewarded that behavior. Howe took that for himself and then when Loghain was out in the field Howe decided to do things behind Loghain's back.
Howe prospered under the ruling sight of Loghain, knowing some of the twisted justification used to perform actions (eg; hiring the Crowes). Loghain was wrong and responsible.
I'm not sure how that refutes TEWR's point.
I'm not sure how that refutes TEWR's point.
Loghain did not remove Howe; instead he supported him indirectly at best, and directly at worst.
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
But I don't think I've ever heard a detailed, logistically feasible answer from anyone who objects to this as far as what Loghain was supposed to do instead. I agree it would have been nice if Howe died the second he tried to take Denerim, but given the power Howe had already taken for himself I don't see how Loghain was supposed to pull this off without things going even further to hell.
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
But I don't think I've ever heard a detailed, logistically feasible answer from anyone who objects to this as far as what Loghain was supposed to do instead. I agree it would have been nice if Howe died the second he tried to take Denerim, but given the power Howe had already taken for himself I don't see how Loghain was supposed to pull this off without things going even further to hell.
Logistically and realistically it isn't possible.
Not with the darkspawn AND the civil war going on at the same time.
Loghain turning against Howe would have spelled doom for Ferelden. There wouldn't be enough soldiers to fight the blight, even with our treaties.
Heck, even as the game ends, there aren't enough soldiers to win the battle of Denerim if it wasn't for the fact that the archdemon was also there and could be defeated by the wardens. Before the battle really gets underway, Sten and Oghren make it clear that despite the army we built up we're still outnumbered 3-1.
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
But I don't think I've ever heard a detailed, logistically feasible answer from anyone who objects to this as far as what Loghain was supposed to do instead. I agree it would have been nice if Howe died the second he tried to take Denerim, but given the power Howe had already taken for himself I don't see how Loghain was supposed to pull this off without things going even further to hell.
Ser Cauthrian was a bit zealous, but would have been a better representative than Howe; many would. Leaving Howe there to further poison the situations certainly was the wrong move, but again, non-action is the Regent's choice....
The entire reason Loghain went with Howe was because he thought he would need Howe's political mind. Cauthrien isn't a politician. Howe does have a military hold though that Loghain also has to factor into the equation.
The entire reason Loghain went with Howe was because he thought he would need Howe's political mind. Cauthrien isn't a politician. Howe does have a military hold though that Loghain also has to factor into the equation.
And he also holds the main trading port in the Waking Sea (Amaranthine) and all the northern coasts.
And he also holds the main trading port in the Waking Sea (Amaranthine) and all the northern coasts.
Precisely. Amaranthine is a vital trade route. The Wending Wood and the Pilgrim's Path occupy the most trade that Denerim and Amaranthine sees, while Howe has instilled people loyal to him in Highever and Denerim. It's only natural, anyway, as that's what happens.
Ser Cauthrian was a bit zealous, but would have been a better representative than Howe; many would. Leaving Howe there to further poison the situations certainly was the wrong move, but again, non-action is the Regent's choice....
I don't think that answers the question: while leaving Howe there to further entrench himself was a bad plan, what alternative plan was Loghain to pursue bearing in mind the darkspawn, the problem with the Bannorn, and (so he thinks) the Orlesian threat?
Ser Cauthrian was a bit zealous, but would have been a better representative than Howe; many would. Leaving Howe there to further poison the situations certainly was the wrong move, but again, non-action is the Regent's choice....
Cauthrien is not a noble. If the nobility disliked Loghain in large part because he was born a commoner, how much more would they dislike Cauthrien?
Howe should have been removed and replaced; the alternative is clearly shown, and is now Loghain's legacy to bear.
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. The alternative being Cauthrien?
Howe should have been removed and replaced; the alternative is clearly shown, and is now Loghain's legacy to bear.
In the middle of a civil war and a blight.
Howe amassed so much military and economic strength that he pretty much was a war force on his own. Fighting him would mean Loghain opening himself up to attack from behind by the other bannorn or the darkspawn.
You say he needs to be removed. I agree. Now give me a feasible way that would work given the circumstances.
Howe should have been removed and replaced; the alternative is clearly shown, and is now Loghain's legacy to bear.
Do you have a method by which this could have been done?
Howe should have been removed and replaced; the alternative is clearly shown, and is now Loghain's legacy to bear.
I wonder how things would have played out if the other Banns decided to just side with Loghain right from the start. It would no doubt have made things simpler for him, since there would be no civil war, and Howe would probably not be able to play the greasy opportunist through it all. Supplanting Howe while support is dodgy at best isn't a very good idea, even when a key ally is a deplorable a-hole.
I wonder how things would have played out if the other Banns decided to just side with Loghain right from the start. It would no doubt have made things simpler for him, since there would be no civil war, and Howe would probably not be able to play the greasy opportunist through it all. Supplanting Howe while support is dodgy at best isn't a very good idea, even when a key ally is a deplorable a-hole.
Probably poorly. Working with Loghain would have been the smart move given what they knew, but "what they knew" doesn't include relevant Grey Warden secrets which make what Loghain was doing the worst possible idea.
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. The alternative being Cauthrien?
The alternative being someone other than a murderous snake when it is known he is a murderous snake. Fairly qualified would help, but I am willing to give Ser Cauthrian the benefit, as she does have some backbone.
It would be great if you could clarify how you think something like that would go down.
The alternative being someone other than a murderous snake when it is known he is a murderous snake. Fairly qualified would help, but I am willing to give Ser Cauthrian the benefit, as she does have some backbone.
Now give us a way to remove Howe, keep his army and trade resources without resorting to war.
And Denerim's army is the kings, so they all had been slaughtered in Ostagar too save a few guards like Kyron ( or whatever his name was).
The italicized bit is almost certainly not true given that there is a lord of Denerim. As for the rest of it, being the Arl/Teryn of Highever and Denerim (de facto) means that he's allowed to recruit soldiers from those territories. Which one might assume he's busily doing as soon as he can. This is to say nothing of the Amaranthine soldiers, who I'm pretty sure lost nobody at Ostagar. Add all that up, and you get a force Loghain wants to give his undivided attention to if he decides to destroy it at all. (Which I hope he was planning to eventually do.)
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